Your opinions: Minimum phaser setting to affect a stormtrooper?

[Esquire]

That rather undermines your argument that phaser blasts carry sufficient kinetic energy to knock out their targets, doesn't it? And did you miss the bit where I specifically said:

The question isn't 'do they have some KE component,' it's 'how much of one?' You think it's enough to knock out a stormtrooper on low stun settings, demonstrate this. For at least the fourth time.

[darthy2]

That rather undermines your argument that phaser blasts carry sufficient kinetic energy to knock out their targets, doesn't it? And did you miss the bit where I specifically said:

The question isn't 'do they have some KE component,' it's 'how much of one?' You think it's enough to knock out a stormtrooper on low stun settings, demonstrate this. For at least the fourth time.

Yes it appears you're moving the goal posts again without conceding. The issue was whether they had a KE component. I'm focusing on that first. People went as far as to deny a phaser was used in Star Trek 6 to deny the evidence. How about a phaser sweep like the ones they used on DS9 to find changlings? Stormtrooper's armor has openings at the joints. The sweep should be able to penetrate there.

[Esquire]

That hasn't been the issue for at least the last two pages, and if you disagree you're welcome to prove it. The question of whether or not the STVI weapon is a phaser or not is accidental to the above, and, I note, has yet to be addressed usefully. For the fifth time in two pages, demonstrate your claims; I'm not doing your work for you.

EDIT: One of the 'the's above should have been 'to.'

[darthy2]

That hasn't been the issue for at least the last two pages, and if you disagree you're welcome to prove it. The question of whether or not the STVI weapon is a phaser or not is accidental the the above, and, I note, has yet to be addressed usefully. For the fifth time in two pages, demonstrate your claims; I'm not doing your work for you.

When I have time I can do the calcs. Though I already told you what would happen after I do.

[Esquire]

I await your calculations. That you don't think they're convincing has nothing to do with me.

[darthy2]

I await your calculations. That you don't think they're convincing has nothing to do with me.

Oh how do you know my reasons for thinking that they won't be convincing to you has nothing to do with you?

[Esquire]

Go ahead, show me a time where you've offered valid evidence and I haven't taken it on board.

[darthy2]

Go ahead, show me a time where you've offered valid evidence and I haven't taken it on board.

That's circular. The people receiving the arguments plays a factor in the confidence that the arguer has in his evidence. Potassium argon dating as proof of an old earth presented to a young earth creationist as an example.

[Batman]

Translation: You can't, and know fully well you can't so you're whining we wouldn't accept it anyway. You have provided NO CALCULATIONS WHATSOEVER regarding the KE/momentum of a phaser discharge, leave alone how they compare to the Ewok rocks yet blithely assumed a phaser (on stun, no less, when your ONLY examples of phasers (likely) transferring KE/momentum were outliers never seen again throughout hundreds of phaser uses by phasers most definitely NOT set for stun) has the same capability.
Of course we already know you have no idea what you're talking about as you invoke SoD in an attempt to ignore SoD.

It may look like it's the character doing it though. This is because you failed to apply suspension of disbelief there.

That's the exact opposite of SoD. It looks like the character did it, that's because the character did it. It's not like Khaat didn't already provide a perfectly functional in-universe explanation for that or something.
You track record so far is
Evidence that phasers transfer KE/momentum-2 outliers never ever repeated throughout all of the rest of Trek
Evidence that a stun shot (leave alone low level stun shots) does-none whatsoever
Evidence that the few phaser examples that DO (likely) display KE/momentum transfer are enough to drop (not stun, drop) a stormtrooper-inexistent thanks to you either being too bloody stupid to do the math or knowing fully well it doesn't support your point
But you're welcome to actually DO THE MATH and show us that, for at least those completely irrelevant outliers, phasers pack the punch to topple over a stormtrooper.

[Khaat]

That's circular. The people receiving the arguments plays a factor in the confidence that the arguer has in his evidence. Potassium argon dating as proof of an old earth presented to a young earth creationist as an example.

Just say "Science as proof to a young earth creationist" and skip the particulars. Most sciences they count on in their daily life are involved anyway, regardless of their denials of the conclusions.

KE = 1/2MV2
let's make up some numbers!
100 kg Klingon! The first Klingon is "Hollywood sleek", but he's wearing body armor (and those boots *yikes!*), about a meter from the wall when shot, takes him about a second to get the wall, with a one-second beam-weapon burst imparting his velocity. Trust me, you want him mass-y! If he's only 60-70kg, the results are lower!
V= 1 m/s (rough estimate), A=2 m/s for 1 second

KE = 1/2(100kg)(1m/s)2
KE = 50 J, rough estimate, faked (yet vaguely plausible) numbers

This source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commotio_cordis) says

Impact energies of at least 50 joules are estimated to be required to cause cardiac arrest, when applied in the right time and spot of the precordium of an adult.Impacts up to 130 joules have already been measured with hockey pucks and lacrosse balls, 450 joules in karate punches, and 1028 joules in boxer Rocky Marciano's punch.

So our rough estimate is that the KE of the beam weapon in ST:tUC is 1/9th a karate punch, 1/20th Marciano's punch. About as energetic as falling backwards from surprise (which is ruled out here, since "zero G.") Applied to a guy in rigid armor (that would be your average stormtrooper), so spread over the armor piece that was hit (no, I'm not doing the calculations of the momentum resistance of the armor mass), then applied to the guy inside it, over that area. Not an insignificant hazard, but also far from the "disintegrate your guts" weapon quality at that power-setting.

That took me... 10 minutes? to pull sources off the internet (including watching the first 3 minutes of a ST:tUC clip of the assassination of Gorkon.)

[Batman]

That's about a tenth of the muzzle energy of a 9mm pistol, but hey, no worries, right? I mean people ALWAYS topple over when hit by a round from those.

[darthy2]

Translation: You can't, and know fully well you can't so you're whining we wouldn't accept it anyway. You have provided NO CALCULATIONS WHATSOEVER regarding the KE/momentum of a phaser discharge, leave alone how they compare to the Ewok rocks yet blithely assumed a phaser (on stun, no less, when your ONLY examples of phasers (likely) transferring KE/momentum were outliers never seen again throughout hundreds of phaser uses by phasers most definitely NOT set for stun) has the same capability.
Of course we already know you have no idea what you're talking about as you invoke SoD in an attempt to ignore SoD.

It may look like it's the character doing it though. This is because you failed to apply suspension of disbelief there.

That's the exact opposite of SoD. It looks like the character did it, that's because the character did it. It's not like Khaat didn't already provide a perfectly functional in-universe explanation for that or something.
You track record so far is
Evidence that phasers transfer KE/momentum-2 outliers never ever repeated throughout all of the rest of Trek
Evidence that a stun shot (leave alone low level stun shots) does-none whatsoever
Evidence that the few phaser examples that DO (likely) display KE/momentum transfer are enough to drop (not stun, drop) a stormtrooper-inexistent thanks to you either being too bloody stupid to do the math or knowing fully well it doesn't support your point
But you're welcome to actually DO THE MATH and show us that, for at least those completely irrelevant outliers, phasers pack the punch to topple over a stormtrooper.

No I just need time to get accurate justifiable numbers. Earlier I was watching the rebel episode with the fruit and trying to figure out the mass of the fruit. I noticed stormtroopers and ezra were able to carry a whole box of them. I was going to try to guess the number of fruit in each box perhaps. Then for the momentum in the star trek 6 episode I need to scale and time things to get a somewhat accurate estimate of the velocity. I don't have time to do it right now. But you are correct that even if I were to go through all that work, you would find a reason to reject it. But from observation we can see that it does not take that much force to mess up a stormtrooper. We've seen phasers produce the amount of force comparable to the force that would mess up a stormtrooper.

I can see now that even if I found a scene from star trek where I was able to precisely find the amount of force from a phaser in a scene and knew the exact setting plus the exact force that messed up a stormtrooper, these would be disregarded as outliers as I am already seeing that you are doing. Though if we applied this same standard to star wars, how powerful would your calculations be? Plus most of your canon got thrown out as well.

[Batman]

No I just need time to get accurate justifiable numbers.

It took Khaat 10 MINUTES to do so. You have failed to produce any numbers for days.

Earlier I was watching the rebel episode with the fruit and trying to figure out the mass of the fruit. I noticed stormtroopers and ezra were able to carry a whole box of them. I was going to try to guess the number of fruit in each box perhaps. Then for the momentum in the star trek 6 episode I need to scale and time things to get a somewhat accurate estimate of the velocity. I don't have time to do it right now. But from observation we can see that it does not take that much force to mess up a stormtrooper. We've seen phasers produce the amount of force comparable to the force that would mess up a stormtrooper.

Prove it. Do the math. Prove that even your completely irrelevant outliers show that a phaser can provide enough KE/momentum to drop (not stun, drop) a stormtrooper.

I can see now that even if I found a scene from star trek where I was able to precisely find the amount of force from a phaser in a scene and knew the exact setting plus the exact force that messed up a stormtrooper, these would be disregarded as outliers as I am already seeing that you are doing. Though if we applied this same standard to star wars, how powerful would your calculations be? Plus most of your canon got thrown out as well.

Treating something that happens every once in a blue moon as an outlier when every other instance of the device being used doesn't show that behaviour is a perfectly valid reason to assume it will not act that way except in very select circumstances/when used on a rarely employed setting.
Not only is onus to prove that those outliers depict enough KE/momentum transfer to drop (not stun) a stormtrooper on you, so is onus to prove a stun blast (leave alone a low level one) can.

Not that I expect you to do this of course, you'll just whine we'd ignore your calculations anyway and use that as an excuse to continue your completely baseless allegations without ever actually backing them up with evidence (you know, ACTUAL evidence as in 'yep that's definitely what happened', not 'well this can be INTERPRETED to support my point if we ignore physics, close one eye, and look at it in bad light')

[darthy2]

It took Khaat 10 MINUTES to do so. You have failed to produce any numbers for days.

That's different, he did a poor job and is among friends. No big deal for him. I said you could just eyeball it and no calculations are necessary. I've done calculations before though see:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &start=100

Okay so we know that a borg cube has a mass of 90,000,000 metric tons or 90,000,000,000 kg. Its velocity at full impulse should be around 0.25c or about 75,000,000 meters per second. This gives it a kinetic energy of 0.5*90,000,000,000*75,000,000^2 = 253125000000000000000000000 joules = 60498326960 megatons of kinetic energy. Sure you can spread this force out over the surface area of the hull of the ship but it probably won't help much and since the borg cube has more mass you can bet that the star destroyer will be pushed from this causing at the very least a g-force on the ship that will probably kill everyone.

^me, marsh8472/darthy. Done it all before, so I know where it leads.

I want my numbers accurate. In science we have this thing called peer review. So naturally I want my numbers to be as accurate as possible. But since I have a life and a full time job, it's not easy allocate the time to analyze the data. We know how your reaction is going to be anyway. I think pointing out scenes that demonstrate the points is more effective. But I've done it all before, there's the proof. Yes I have a degree in math and computers and all that too.

[Batman]

Ah, so you're a KNOWN complete and utter moron back for another thrashing. Good to know.
Khaat did NOT do a bad job. A probably somewhat inaccurate one, yes, but not only did he say so himself, but he did something you completely failed to do in this thread-he presented numbers. On short notice.
Also, just because you present numbers that doesn't mean we have to accept them, especially if they're 'complete garbage'.Like, essentially every single number you presented as marsh8472.

[darthy2]

Ah, so you're a KNOWN complete and utter moron back for another thrashing. Good to know.
Khaat did NOT do a bad job. A probably somewhat inaccurate one, yes, but not only did he say so himself, but he did something you completely failed to do in this thread-he presented numbers. On short notice.
Also, just because you present numbers that doesn't mean we have to accept them, especially if they're 'complete garbage'.Like, essentially every single number you presented as marsh8472.

haha, hold on kid. I'll do a crude calculation soon.

[Batman]

I may not have been out there saving the galaxy when your grandfather was in diapers but I WAS out there protecting this planet since before you were born so don't call me kid.
I don't expect those calculations to ever arrive or have any basis in reality if they do but who knows? Stranger things have happened.

[darthy2]

6mph = 2.7m/s
250lbs = 113.4kg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5ewfyyE6DI 2:52
(1/2)*113.4*(2.7)^2 = 413 joules

The fruit is maybe 2 lbs = 0.9kg
throwing at maybe 20mph = 8.9m/s
(1/2)*0.9*(8.9)^2 = 35 joules

University of Washington in Seattle, WA. Professor Tom Steiger calculates a Karate punch to have about 150 Joules of energy
Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/b ... ch.225988/

We see a stormtrooper knocked out in one punch.


35J to knock out a stormtrooper and 413J delivered from a phaser in KE

[Batman]

Browser frizted up on me. Please delete.

[WATCH-MAN]

EDIT: Ninja'd; this is for WATCH-MAN, in case it wasn't clear from context.

Really? That's your takeaway?

Fine. I make it an anecdotal fallacy, argument from ignorance, continuum fallacy, equivocation fallacy, at least two false equivalencies, and at least two counts of begging the question. Darthy2:

Please elaborate.

Where and how has darthy2 made

1. an anecdotal fallacy
2. an argument from ignorance
3. a continuum fallacy
4. an equivocation fallacy
5. a false equivalencies fallacy
6. a begging the question fallacy

1) uses an isolated particular to draw a general conclusion,

Please elaborate.

Where and how has darthy2 used an isolated particular to draw a general conclusion?

And what fallacy is this?

Please show that darthy2 argumentation does fall under the definition of this fallacy.

2) asserts that because it's all fictional anyway we can't prove him wrong,

Please elaborate.

Where and how has darthy2 asserted that because it's all fictional anyway you can't prove him wrong?

And what fallacy is this?

Please show that darthy2 argumentation does fall under the definition of this fallacy.

3) ignores rational objections because he objects to our dispute of the word 'phaser',

Please elaborate.

Where and how has darthy2 ignored rational objections because he objects to your dispute of the word 'phaser'?

And what fallacy is this?

Please show that darthy2 argumentation does fall under the definition of this fallacy.

And please show that your objection, darthy2 ignored, was indeed rational.

4) has a personal definition of 'phaser' different from everybody elses', which he has not explained or justified,

Please elaborate.

Where and how has darthy2 explained that he has a personal definition of 'phaser' different from everybody elses', which he has not explained or justified?

And what fallacy is this?

Please show that darthy2 argumentation does fall under the definition of this fallacy.

And please explain the definition of 'phaser' from everybody else.

5) claims that the aforementioned particular is equivalent to all other recorded uses of a phaser although it has none of the effectual characteristics of one, and that one (unquantified) kinetic impact is exactly the same as another (unquantified) kinetic impact,

Please elaborate.

Where and how has darthy2 claimed that aforementioned particular is equivalent to all other recorded uses of a phaser?

And what fallacy is this?

Please show that darthy2 argumentation does fall under the definition of this fallacy.

6) refuses to provide any kind of proof for his arguments besides his own unsupported claims, either that a low amount of kinetic energy (compared to what?) can affect an armored stormtrooper or that a phaser can exceed this amount.

Please elaborate.

Where and how has darthy2 refused to provide any kind of proof for his arguments?

And what fallacy is this?

Please show that darthy2 argumentation does fall under the definition of this fallacy.

Concession accepted.

I haven't offered a concession and I do not know what I could concede at all.

Within the last page and a half of this thread. I'll elaborate when you phrase an intelligent question instead of just engaging in goalpost-shifting and nitpicking.

Concession accepted.

[Esquire]

'Digression rejected,' more like. If you're not going to muster up the amount of reading comprehension required to pass an elementary-school exam, I'm not doing it for you.

[darthy2]

The velocity of those Klingon could be as high as 7 or 8 meters per second.

I have an alternate hypothesis: phasers, as directed energy weapons, have brief seizure-inducing properties (a "shock") on humans and humanoids (with a central nervous system, electrically-stimulated musculature, and a dynamic - that means "unstable without constant muscular adjustments" - upright skeleton), hence humans/humanoids often fly or fall about in an uncontrolled, involuntary spasm, under their own muscle-power, when hit. (Disclaimer: don't try this at home!) Ever touch an alternating current lead? Same principle. It fits the stun effects as described (and observed!) better than a kinetic effect we haven't seen (except once, with a weapon never shown again.)

My hypothesis: 1) it doesn't invent necessary components not in evidence (massive, or at least harmful, kinetic effect for all phasers), 2) it supplies actual canon evidence for the phenomenon in question (described and observed performance of phasers on stunned humans), and 3) applies those effects to humans (and their nervous systems) in a manner logically consistent with other energy (alternating current) and human biology. In fact, "phaser hit acting" events resemble when an actor is pretending to have been hit by an electric arc, elsewhere in the show.

I've provided similar hypothesis about phaser effects and what we have seen on screen. We see phasers fired at people/objects and those people/objects disappear. The dialogue tells us that these people/objects were vaporized. The SDN community has rejected the dialogue because of what we would expect to happen if a person or object were truly vaporized, like an intense heat would be created in the surrounding area. But it should be possible that the phaser creates an exotic effect which prevents those side-effects from happening.

Like the way they prevent a nebula from exploding in voyager episode Alter Ego

TUVOK: Are you alone here, on this station in this nebula?
MARAYNA: Yes. It's my work.
TUVOK: I don't understand.
MARAYNA: I keep the plasma fires from chain-reacting.
TUVOK: You are responsible for the dampening field we've been investigating.
MARAYNA: That's correct. I generate it from here to preserve the nebula so that others from my home planet may enjoy its beauty. I watch the ships when they pass by. They don't even know I'm here.

Since there is not enough visual evidence to determine whether a target was really vaporized or some kind of controlled chain reaction takes place as suggested, it's best to default to dialogue which states they are vaporized. So phasers really do vaporize their targets afterall.

[darthy2]

Has anyone used the Galileo Seven episode to calculate a phasers potential energy before?

SCOTT: One of the lines gave. The strain of coming through the atmosphere and the added load when we tried to bypass. Yes, that's done it. We have no fuel.
SPOCK: That would seem to solve the problem of who to leave behind. Consider the alternatives, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: We have no fuel! What alternatives?
...
MCCOY: I hope not. Scotty has an idea.
SCOTT: It's dangerous, but it might work.
SPOCK: Go, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: I can adjust the main reactor to function with a substitute fuel supply.
SPOCK: That's all very well, but we don't have a substitute supply.
SCOTT: Aye, we do. Our phasers. I can adapt them and use their energy. It'll take time, but it's possible.

Their shuttle was completely out of fuel and they used 5 phasers to give the shuttle along with 5 crewmembers enough power to reach escape velocity.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Class_F_shuttlecraft

Enterprise Shuttle Craft (2188 – )

Length: 6.8 m
Weight: 17,000 kg
Ship's Compliment: 7
Propulsion: Impulse Power

500 pounds / 3 grown men = x pounds / 5 grown men
833 pounds for crew members = 378kg

1/2* 17378kg * (11,200m/s)^2 = 1,089,948,160,000 joules / 5 = 217,989,632,000 joules of potential energy per phaser



if it only takes 300 gigajoules to vaporize someone, a phaser should easily be able to do that.

[Simon_Jester]

Okay, that's one of the least dumb things I've heard from you.

We've also seen phasers' battery set to overload explode very violently on several occasions, so this isn't completely a fluke.

On the other hand, phasers having high stored energy content does not equate to them releasing this energy quickly, especially when set to stun. If a typical stun beam released even a millionth of the energy required to lift a shuttlecraft to orbit, it would be doing damage comparable to the energy of a bullet, and would presumably hurt the target as badly as a bullet.

There is a huge gap between the destructive power of phaser weapons on low settings (where they stun without causing any serious harm) and high settings (where they can vaporize large objects and cause explosions).

[Batman]

Pasers having a high energy capacity was never contested. The TNG TMP explicitely says so (to the point that a single hand phaser power cell has enough energy to power the saucer phaser arrays for hours of continuous fire).
The fact remains that we never see a a hand phaser show the side effects inherent to vapourization so whatever they do, Occam's Razor says it isn't vapourization. 'Vapourization but some funky technobabble makes all the inevitable side effects not show up somehow' loses, especially as you can't vapourize a humanwith a hand phaser beam even if a 'desintegrate' level shot had the energy, leave alone in the manner depicted. All the beam would do is drill a hole through the target, evaporate the matter immediately surrounding the beam path likely making the body explode and go merrily on its way to expend the vast majority of its energy on whatever else is in its path. Not what I recall seeing in Trek.
Also not seeing how any of this is relevant to phaser stun working through stormtrooper armour (leave alone by KE).