Star Trek Beyond *SPOILERS*

[Lord Revan]

we got remember when and how the Federation was formed as well as how and when Earth Starfleet (and United Earth) were.

United Earth and by extension were formed after the first contact with the vulcans allowed earth to recover from a major war (either WWIII or WWIV I can't remember which one atm) that had devested pretty much all major civilizations thus public opinion in United Earth was probably very heavily anti-war when it was formed thus United Earth Spaceprobe Agency Starfleet (to give full name of the ENT era organization) was made explicitly not a military organization (and thus less likely to cause a war). The United Federation of Planets was formed after the alliance of races formed in ENT beat the Romulans after a bloody war so again anti-war sentiment was probably quite popular and thus Starfleet was again said not to be a military organization so it wouldn't provoke another war.

So it's less that the Federation Council are a bunch of hypocrites (on this matter at least, they're still politicians after all) but rather UFP wanted to send a message to both it's citizens and other AQ powers that they don't want another war and this new power will be peaceful.

[NecronLord]

oh crap I got the threads mixed up

Fixed that for you.

[DarthPooky]

So it's less that the Federation Council are a bunch of hypocrites (on this matter at least, they're still politicians after all) but rather UFP wanted to send a message to both it's citizens and other AQ powers that they don't want another war and this new power will be peaceful.

And yet there ships are heavily are they were military uniforms with military rank and protocol. If they indeed what to send that message then they need to drop what I just mentioned

[NecronLord]

Again, this is an exact thing that has happened IRL. No one is actually fooled nor thinks that the JSDF isn't a military force in effect, but its name and official status (and ban on foreign offensive operations) sends now, and sent at its creation, an important message.



Real Life Non-Military Defensive Escort Vessel, on military-today.com, no less.

If you're saying it's not fooling anyone, no it's obviously not. If you're saying it's not got a meaning to the people involved nor a diplomatic meaning even as tokenism (which matters, this ACTUAL FILM shows diplomatic gifts and symbolism, and unless you're a three foot angry lizard critter that stuff matters) then you can't say that; it clearly matters to the characters that starfleet isn't a military.

[Lord Revan]

So it's less that the Federation Council are a bunch of hypocrites (on this matter at least, they're still politicians after all) but rather UFP wanted to send a message to both it's citizens and other AQ powers that they don't want another war and this new power will be peaceful.

And yet there ships are heavily are they were military uniforms with military rank and protocol. If they indeed what to send that message then they need to drop what I just mentioned

the JSDF uses military uniforms and ranks as well but don't consider themselves a military force they're in fact quite adamant about it officially (not that it's fooling anyone but it's the symbolism, not the facts).

The message UFP wants to send isn't "we hate war so much that we would rather accept being conquered as an alternative" but rather "Starfleet is meant for exploration and peacekeeping not a military force meant for conquest". Everyone in the AQ knows that GCS is a warship if it needs to be and rather heavy one as well but they also know that UFP won't attack you if not provoked to do so.

[NecronLord]

As mentioned on my previous link, the JSDF's ranks in japanese are actually a semantic step away from their pre-war ranks, too.



Also a Defensive Escort Vessel.

[Tribble]

And here's Starfleet's "Defensive Escort Vessel":

[Batman]

Well if it had been used purely in an escort role it would have been defensive.

And I think the point NecronLord and others are trying to make is that no matter how much Starfleet may effectively be a military, they're going out of their way not to seem like one (however unsuccessfully).
Just like the real world JSDF, it's about perceptions.

[Highlord Laan]

To expand a little: According to the TOS Writer's Guide, the Enterprise is 'semi-military in practice' without the "categories" of officers and enlisted and no saluting. Apparently, according to the TNG Writer's Guide, it's stated directly that 'Starfleet is not a military organization' but a 'scientific research and diplomatic body'.

What we see in practice though is that Starfleet does have a military structure and conducts military operations.

It's an organisation that could be militarised, in times of war. Given that Starfleet managed to win a number of wars by adopting this approach, and any of their scientific vessels is armed to the teeth and capable of going up against any other warships in the region.

It's probably a useful approach to reduce the influence of those who wish the federation to be more aggressive. Harder to conduct a war of aggression when your fleet is only militarised after the enemy declared war.

Pretty hard on the people Starfleet is supposedly protecting, though. Just look at the Destiny trilogy. A hundred billion dead, Starfleet shown to be an absolute failure of a uniformed service and the Federation a pathetic excuse of a galactic power that can't even protect it's own members, but it's all okay because at least they were going to die with their heads high and ideals intact.

[Batman]

Since the Destiny trilogy presumably refers to a set of novels which as per Paramount's canon policy never officially happened I fail to see how that is in any way relevant.

[Lord Revan]

in the war with the Klingons and later during the Dominion War Starfleet seemed to do just fine given the circumstances.

We got remember that UFP is surrounded by rough equals when it comes to military power not it's not like the US that's vastly superior to pretty much any potential enemy even before you take nukes into account, so USA can wage war knowing that mainland USA will most likely be perfectly safe. When UFP goes to war it has to accept that war will involved fighting within its own borders as most potential enemies are simply too strong to be effectivly contained within their own borders.

[The Romulan Republic]

Its not simply that their are enemies who are roughly comparable (or, in the case of occasional encounters, vastly superior) in power.


The fact that at least two of the major potential enemies have cloaks routinely installed on their ships means that undetected raiding and strike forces of considerable size far behind the front line are a real concern. Does the Federation have any way, in a war with the Klingons or Romulans, to ensure that a hundred Birds of Prey/Warbirds don't suddenly appear over Earth?

[Gandalf]

Its not simply that their are enemies who are roughly comparable (or, in the case of occasional encounters, vastly superior) in power.

The fact that at least two of the major potential enemies have cloaks routinely installed on their ships means that undetected raiding and strike forces of considerable size far behind the front line are a real concern. Does the Federation have any way, in a war with the Klingons or Romulans, to ensure that a hundred Birds of Prey/Warbirds don't suddenly appear over Earth?

From Face of the Enemy: "The cloaking device does not always make us invulnerable, and you would know that if you had spent any time at all in the field. The Federation has littered it's borders with subspace listening posts, with gravitic sensors. They may even have a tachyon detection grid in operation, in which case they will know that we're there. If we are discovered in Federation territory, it will be interpreted as an act of war."

Presumably the Federation has a decent early warning system for Romulan ships and a policy around how to act if it's triggered.

[The Romulan Republic]

I can't imagine that those are remotely fool proof though. If only because there's just so much space to cover.

Edit: Sure, they can probably cover Earth's immediate vicinity. Other major worlds too. But there are still plenty of places where the Klingons or Romulans could inflict a painful surprise, I'd imagine.

[Gandalf]

They don't need to be perfect to be a good deterrent. I imagine two centuries of a largely static border would lead to it being fairly militarised.

Maybe a lone warbird can sneak through the borders, but then it has to get through Federation space without anyone noticing. Once discovered they're officially at war. It's a whole thing.

[Lord Revan]

I can't imagine that those are remotely fool proof though. If only because there's just so much space to cover.

Edit: Sure, they can probably cover Earth's immediate vicinity. Other major worlds too. But there are still plenty of places where the Klingons or Romulans could inflict a painful surprise, I'd imagine.

They're effective enough that romulan navy considers trying to cross the border under cloak "not worth the risk", it doesn't have to be fool proof just good enough that it's not worth the effort.

Sol, Andor, Vulcan, Tellar Prime or any other system worth targeting is probably too well defended to sneak up on and systems vunerble to this strategy are probably not worth attacking. same way German U-boats or US subs didn't go around sinking random fishing boats during WWII even though it was probably a lot easier to sneak up on those. I see the importance of cloaks being more tactical then strategic.

EDIT:That's why I said rough parity, cloaks give a tactical edge but federation seems to have more effective logistical base and command structure evening out the difference.

[DarthPooky]

So I'm not sure what you guys points are and trying to get at. Are you saying star fleet is or isn't a military.

[NecronLord]

I am saying that the situation where a force has all the characteristics of a military but is decreed not to be and its members do not regard it as so is not a failure of world-building - this has happened IRL - nor a meaningless gesture - it is a diplomatic gesture in real life.

No one is fooled, in that everyone knows Starfleet has defensive missions, and is capable of fighting a war. But it doesn't make it a hypocritical gesture in-universe either.

Is Starfleet's non-military status unrealistic? - No, obviously not, such a thing has happened in reality.
Is it fooling anyone into thinking that the Federation lacks warmaking capacity? - No, but that's not the intention.
Is it hypocritical? - Only if they're demanding others abolish their military forces, which I've never seen the UFP do.

[Lord Revan]

basically Starfleet's status is diplomatic gesture that says "we offer a hand of peace without any tricks or demands."

[Q99]

in the war with the Klingons and later during the Dominion War Starfleet seemed to do just fine given the circumstances.

We got remember that UFP is surrounded by rough equals when it comes to military power not it's not like the US that's vastly superior to pretty much any potential enemy even before you take nukes into account, so USA can wage war knowing that mainland USA will most likely be perfectly safe. When UFP goes to war it has to accept that war will involved fighting within its own borders as most potential enemies are simply too strong to be effectivly contained within their own borders.

Yea. The Federation took the brunt of the fighting against a technically higher tech, definitely more militarized foe that would use ships and troops like water, with two major local allies that shared borders with the Federation, one of whom did deep strikes at the Federation core, including on Earth (with comparatively minor damage in return for destruction of the invading fleet, so clearly they are ready for deep strikes from entire cloak-equipped fleets), and came out on top.

They also beat down the Cardassians in the last war without even really mobilizing, from what I can tell.

[DarthPooky]

If star fleet is indeed a military in all but name and its members know it I have to asks then. Why are some of its members opposed to military missions like how Scotty was to the mission to Qonos in into darkness.

[Lord Revan]

If star fleet is indeed a military in all but name and its members know it I have to asks then. Why are some of its members opposed to military missions like how Scotty was to the mission to Qonos in into darkness.

the Qu'nos mission was about as far from the image Starfleet wants to project as it's realistically possible. it wasn't so much the military nature of the mission, but rather what kind of military mission it was. The mission to Qu'nos was a long range missile strike against the capital of nation the UFP was technically at peace with and without the consent of said nation, there's no way in hell you justify that as "self-defense" that's why scotty protested, he didn't seem to have any problems fighting the Narada or later in the same movie the Vengence both which would be military actions, so it's not military nature per say scotty has issues but this aggressive mission that clearly cannot be justified as self-defense.

Not mention said mission could have also been against the rules of engagement for Starfleet (Kirk wasn't exactly in a rational state of mind during that time) and even if technically allowedm still very much against the traditions of Starfleet.

[NecronLord]

And flat-out treasonous. Wasn't Marcus giving orders without the authority or knowledge of his own superiors with the intention of formenting war against the Federation?

[Lord Revan]

And flat-out treasonous. Wasn't Marcus giving orders without the authority or knowledge of his own superiors with the intention of formenting war against the Federation?

Exactly but I assumed Scotty wouldn't know that or he would pointed it out, so the fact that Admiral Marcus's actions were outright treason wouldn't factor into Scotty's objections no wonder Alexander Marcus's primeverse grandson hated Starfleet with a passion if his (Alexander's that is not David's) prime equilevant was anything like the one in Into Darkness.

The Qu'nos mission was like if a USAF general would diside to bomb an industrial district of Moscow (as the Klingons were traditionally a soviet analoge) without the consent or authorization of the President or the Congress during the Cold War (Starfleet is still subservient to the Federation Council even if "Jonh Harrison" killed the joint chiefs).

[Alyrium Denryle]

If star fleet is indeed a military in all but name and its members know it I have to asks then. Why are some of its members opposed to military missions like how Scotty was to the mission to Qonos in into darkness.

Because Starfleet has a defensive focus that while it does not rule out offensive actions, DOES rule out aggressive operations in someone's territory

What he was being asked to do (an long range assassination by missile in Klingon territory) would start a war with the Klingons. To say nothing it being morally wrong due to a lack of trial. The UFP does not do assassinations (Section 31 not withstanding)

Chris, how thick are you?