The 2016 US Election (Part III)

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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

The former has substantive bearing on the argument being made. The latter is a minor technical detail.

And you know as well as I do, or ought to, that my spelling (which barring a couple old bad habits its perfectly adequate) has no bearing on the validity of my arguments.

Anyway, leaving aside maraxus2's tripe for the moment...

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-e ... SKCN1052BN
The Democratic National Committee apologized to Senator Bernie Sanders on Monday after leaked emails suggested the party's leadership had worked to sabotage Sanders' presidential campaign.

"On behalf of everyone at the DNC, we want to offer a deep and sincere apology to Senator Sanders, his supporters, and the entire Democratic Party for the inexcusable remarks made over email," the DNC said in a statement released on the opening day of the party's convention in Philadelphia.

It said the emails did not reflect the committee's "steadfast commitment to neutrality during the nominating process."

(Reporting by Eric Beech in Washington)
Well, at least they're trying.

It won't bring over the hard core Busters suffering a breach with reality, but it might keep a few on the fence from splitting.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

As much as I would love to eat some popcorn and watch you two fling shit at eachother, I will not permit this thread to become a shit-show. This is not a rebuke yet, just a reminder that I am watching and rather pointedly compartmentalizing my opinion from my mod duties.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

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The more I follow the connections between Trump, Russia, and mafia, and the Russian connection to this email story, the more disturbing it gets. Here's some more information:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/25/us/po ... .html?_r=0
WASHINGTON — An unusual question is capturing the attention of cyberspecialists, Russia experts and Democratic Party leaders in Philadelphia: Is Vladimir V. Putin trying to meddle in the American presidential election?

Until Friday, that charge, with its eerie suggestion of a Kremlin conspiracy to aid Donald J. Trump, has been only whispered.

But the release on Friday of some 20,000 stolen emails from the Democratic National Committee’s computer servers, many of them embarrassing to Democratic leaders, has intensified discussion of the role of Russian intelligence agencies in disrupting the 2016 campaign.

Live From the Democratic National Convention »
The leaked emails threaten to undermine unity at the Democratic convention.
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The emails, released first by a supposed hacker and later by WikiLeaks, exposed the degree to which the Democratic apparatus favored Hillary Clinton over her primary rival, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, and triggered the resignation of Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the party chairwoman, on the eve of the convention’s first day.

Proving the source of a cyberattack is notoriously difficult. But researchers have concluded that the national committee was breached by two Russian intelligence agencies, which were the same attackers behind previous Russian cyberoperations at the White House, the State Department and the Joint Chiefs of Staff last year. And metadata from the released emails suggests that the documents passed through Russian computers. Though a hacker claimed responsibility for giving the emails to WikiLeaks, the same agencies are the prime suspects. Whether the thefts were ordered by Mr. Putin, or just carried out by apparatchiks who thought they might please him, is anyone’s guess.

On Sunday morning, the issue erupted, as Mrs. Clinton’s campaign manager, Robby Mook, argued on ABC’s “This Week” that the emails were leaked “by the Russians for the purpose of helping Donald Trump” citing “experts” but offering no other evidence. Mr. Mook also suggested that the Russians might have good reason to support Mr. Trump: The Republican nominee indicated in an interview with The New York Times last week that he might not back NATO nations if they came under attack from Russia — unless he was first convinced that the countries had made sufficient contributions to the Atlantic alliance.

It was a remarkable moment: Even at the height of the Cold War, it was hard to find a presidential campaign willing to charge that its rival was essentially secretly doing the bidding of a key American adversary. But the accusation is emerging as a theme of Mrs. Clinton’s campaign, as part of an attempt to portray Mr. Trump not only as an isolationist, but also as one who would go soft on confronting Russia as it threatens nations that have shown too much independence from Moscow or, in the case of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, joined NATO.

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Donald J. Trump last week during his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention. Credit Chang W. Lee/The New York Times
Mr. Trump has also said he would like to “get along with Russia” if he is elected, and complimented Mr. Putin, saying he is more of a leader than President Obama. Mr. Putin has in turn praised Mr. Trump. But Trump campaign officials on Sunday strongly rejected any connections between their candidate and efforts to undermine the Democrats.

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RECENT COMMENTS

Boo 27 minutes ago
Really? This e-mail flap is not good, but Trump bring elected would be a catastrophe. Perspective, people!
bozicek 27 minutes ago
Unbeknownst to most Americans, we're at war and we don't even know it. According to testimony of American generals and high-profile Russian...
Tom 27 minutes ago
Forget the Russian Connection, the e-mails speak for themselves. Bernie's campaign was sabotaged, that is the crime.
SEE ALL COMMENTS WRITE A COMMENT
“Are there any ties between Mr. Trump, you or your campaign and Putin and his regime?” George Stephanopoulos, of “This Week,” asked Paul Manafort, Mr. Trump’s campaign chairman.

“No, there are not,” Mr. Manafort shot back. “That’s absurd. And, you know, there’s no basis to it.”

One of Mr. Trump’s sons, Donald Trump Jr., was more definitive, charging the Clinton camp with a smear campaign. “I can’t think of bigger lies,” he said on CNN. The younger Mr. Trump mockingly suggested that Mr. Mook’s “house cat at home once said this is what happened with the Russians.’’


2016 Election Polls
It may take months, or years, to figure out the motives of those who stole the emails, and more important, whether they were being commanded by Russian authorities, and specifically by Mr. Putin. But the theft from the national committee would be among the most important state-sponsored hacks yet of an American organization, rivaled only by the attacks on the Office of Personnel Management by state-sponsored Chinese hackers, and the attack on Sony Pictures Entertainment, which Mr. Obama blamed on North Korea. There, too, embarrassing emails were released, but they had no political significance. The WikiLeaks release, however, has more of a tinge of Russian-style information war, in which the intent of the revelations is to alter political events. Exactly how, though, is a bit of a mystery, apart from embarrassing Democrats and further alienating Mr. Sanders’s supporters from Mrs. Clinton.

Evidence so far suggests that the attack was the work of at least two separate agencies, each apparently working without the knowledge that the other was inside the Democrats’ computers. It is unclear how WikiLeaks obtained the email trove. But the presumption is that the intelligence agencies turned it over, either directly or through an intermediary. Moreover, the timing of the release, between the end of the Republican convention and the beginning of the Democratic one, seems too well planned to be coincidental.

Mr. Trump himself leapt on the news after the WikiLeaks release on Saturday. In a Twitter message he wrote: “Leaked emails of DNC show plans to destroy Bernie Sanders. Mock his heritage and much more. On-line from Wikileakes, really vicious. RIGGED.”

The experts cited by Mr. Mook include CrowdStrike, a cybersecurity firm that was brought into the Democratic National Committee when officials there suspected they had been hacked.

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In mid-June the company announced that the intruders appeared to include a group it had previously identified by the name “Cozy Bear” or “APT 29” and been inside the committee’s servers for a year. A second group, “Fancy Bear,” also called “APT 28,” came into the system in April. It appears to be operated by the G.R.U., the Russian military intelligence service, according to federal investigators and private cybersecurity firms. The first group is particularly well known to the F.B.I.’s counterintelligence unit, the C.I.A. and other intelligence agencies. It was identified by federal investigators as the likely culprit behind years of intrusions into the State Department and White House unclassified computer system.

Russian intelligence agencies went to great lengths to cover their tracks, investigators found, including meticulously deleting logs, and changing the time stamps of the stolen files.

Officials at several other firms that have examined the code for the malware used against the Democratic National Committee and the metadata of the stolen documents found evidence that the documents had been accessed by multiple computers, some with Russian language settings. Moscow has outsourced politically motivated hacking to outside groups in the past. A crippling attack on Estonia in 2007, for example, was attributed to the pro-Kremlin Nashi youth organization. Intelligence officials and security researchers believe this outsourcing is done, in part, to preserve a measure of plausible deniability.


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COMMENTS
Intrusions for intelligence collection are hardly unusual, and the United States often does the same, stealing emails and other secrets from intelligence services and even political parties. But the release to WikiLeaks adds another strange element, because it suggests that the intelligence findings are being “weaponized” — used to influence the election in some way. The story has another level of intrigue involving Mr. Manafort, Mr. Trump’s campaign chairman. Working through his lobbying firm, Mr. Manafort was one of several American advisers to Viktor F. Yanukovych, the Russian-backed leader of Ukraine until he was forced out of office two years ago. Mr. Yanukovych was a key Putin ally who is now in exile in Russia.

In April, asked on Fox News about his relationship with Mr. Yanukovych, Mr. Manafort said he was simply trying to help the Ukrainians build a democracy that could align more closely with the United States and its allies.

Correction: July 25, 2016
Because of an editing error, an earlier version of a reporting credit with this article misspelled the surname of a reporter. He is David E. Sanger, not Sangar.
Particularly of note to me is the fact that Trump's campaign manager is a former aid to ousted Ukrainian leader and Putin lackey Yankovich.

Was talking with my Mum about it and she mentioned that the CIA is now flipping out over the fact that Trump is about to get access, as nominee, to briefings on classified information.

Jesus, this is fucking surreal.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Been watching the convention. It seems to have taken a more positive turn. The crowd seems enthusiastic, and I haven't been hearing much, if any, booing. Hopefully any disruptive Busters have gotten it out of their system and things will run more smoothly now.

The main things I'm awaiting are Bernie and Warren's speeches. I think its Senator Gillibrand who just wrapped up her speech.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Al Franken on now. This should be good. :D
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

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So apparently they just had Sarah Silverman on stage, and she called the Busters "ridiculous".

Hopefully that won't stir everything up too much.

Edit: I mean, I agree with her. I just don't know if it was wise to bring that up when things had just calmed down and taken a turn to the positive.

I didn't see it, but I hear they were under time and trying to stretch things out, so its seems to have been unscripted.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

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A fiery and passionate speech from Corey Booker, with a couple of wonderful lines at the end, saying effectively that cynicism is a refuge of cowards, and that we will not surrender the moral high ground.

"Love Trumps Hate" seems to be emerging as a new slogan.

Some chanting from the crowd, but I couldn't make out the words.

Some anti-TPP signs in the crowd. I hope that's not too divisive an issue.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

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Very moving speech from Michelle Obama, where she spoke about the progress that's been made in America, talking (paraphrasing here) about waking up in a house that was built by slaves, and how because of Hillary children take it for granted that a woman can be President.

One of the commentators on CNN, noting how she affected the crowd, said it was the first time Clinton or Kaine came up without a single boo.

Next up, Warren. :D
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by Gaidin »

Did Warren just break the DNC?
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by Block »

That was a full 3 minutes of standing ovation for Bernie at the beginning. Whatever you want to say, he's truly beloved.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by Gaidin »

Shit yes. He's got it. Hell, I'm not sure any candidate who has lasted as long as he has didn't. Didn't Clinton in '08(honest question)?
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by Block »

Not really, no. She's frankly never been particularly liked let alone loved. She has always been... not someone else in her campaigns. Not the black guy, not the socialist, and Guiliani blew himself up in the Senate race she won. She's a good politician.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

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Going back an hour or so, I have to say Senator Booker gave one hell of an impressive speech.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

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Rogue 9 wrote:Going back an hour or so, I have to say Senator Booker gave one hell of an impressive speech.
There's a movie on him, umm Street Fight? It was fascinating to see him in his first campaign to now.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

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And Senator Sanders got booed when he said Secretary Clinton must be the next President. Bernie supporters booing Bernie. Jesus Christ.

Edit: Bill Clinton is clapping right along, though. :D And while I agree Citizens United is a bad SCOTUS decision, I can't agree that it's even among the very worst in a history that includes Dredd Scott and the Insular Cases.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by Gaidin »

Rogue 9 wrote: Edit: Bill Clinton is clapping right along, though. :D And while I agree Citizens United is a bad SCOTUS decision, I can't agree that it's even among the very worst in a history that includes Dredd Scott and the Insular Cases.
In context I think they're talking about modern decisions still in effect and not adding five to ten lines of speech for legal contextual bullshit.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

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I don't suggest legal contextual bullshit; just "terrible" would have done the trick.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by Gaidin »

Well yes. But when you start adding words like Dredd Scott it sort of drags down your point.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

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Eh. I suppose given the sorry state of history education in this country it doesn't matter much on balance, but I wasn't suggesting mentioning Dredd Scott; simply calling CItizens United a bad, terrible, subpar, malodorous, or what have you instead of "the worst" would have gotten the point across without dredging up the early history of this country by inviting comparison. For the same reason I always insist that Buchanan trumps whenever someone starts talking about a recent President as the worst one we've ever had. :razz:
Last edited by Rogue 9 on 2016-07-25 11:28pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by Knife »

Hmm, good night of speeches. Bookers was a bit angry for my tastes, Michelle Obama had a very good speech, Warren knocked it out of the park, and Sanders just ... wow.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

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That didn't take long.
Supporters Aggravated Bernie Sanders Didn’t Use DNC Speech To Get Voters To Act Against Their Own Self-Interest

NEWS IN BRIEF
July 25, 2016

PHILADELPHIA—In response to the Vermont senator calling upon all Democrats to come together to assure the party’s victory in the presidential election this November, thousands of Bernie Sanders supporters were reportedly left deeply aggravated Monday after he didn’t use his Democratic National Convention speech to encourage voters to act against their own self-interest. “I just don’t understand why he didn’t go up there, be honest about everything that’s wrong with this election, and tell us all to take an action that would inflict deep and lasting harm on ourselves by reversing the policies and values we’ve been pushing so hard to expand,” said Kyle Jorgenson, echoing the sentiment of numerous angry supporters who hoped, especially after the recent leak of emails revealing the Democratic National Committee’s bias against Sanders, that the candidate would urge them to approach this year’s election in a way that would result in the immediate erosion of so much of what they believe in and hold dear. “He really should have taken a stand and declared that if the Democrats aren’t willing to nominate a true progressive, then we should all engage in behavior that ultimately serves to benefit a candidate diametrically opposed to those ideals. I can’t believe he would drop the ball on encouraging us to completely disregard the kind of world we’ll be forced to live in for the next four to eight years and instead act out in shortsighted petulance.” Irritated supporters then called upon those who still believed in progressivism to take the necessary measures to set back society for decades to come.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

The crowd seemed very raucous and divided during much of Bernie's speech, but his final, ringing endorsement for Hillary Clinton seemed to be greeted mostly with applause.

Certainly, while acknowledging the efforts of his campaign and divisions with Clinton, he praised the compromises made on the platform and made a passionate case for Hillary Clinton's election.

Its not his best speech in my opinion, but hopefully it will have the desired effect.

He also implicitly criticized Bernie or Bust by referring to the danger of sitting out the election. :D
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by Terralthra »

Yeah, Sen. Sanders definitely slow-walked into the first endorsement, then went back issue by issue about the progressive causes he's championed and showed Sec. Clinton's support for them. By the end of his speech, I didn't hear a single boo as he re-endorsed Sec. Clinton.

I'm glad I donated to him, and I'm glad I voted for him.

Then they rushed some religious claptrap onto the stage, almost as if to prevent any negative flashback boos before they recessed for the evening. Once the rabbi put everyone to sleep by rushing through, there was no argument to gaveling it shut for the day.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Block wrote:That was a full 3 minutes of standing ovation for Bernie at the beginning. Whatever you want to say, he's truly beloved.
Not only that, you could see numerous supporters in the crowd openly weeping.

I'd say that's a bit much if I hadn't gotten a bit teary-eyed myself. Not because I think Bernie is that perfect, but because, I think, this campaign stirred up such emotion, means so much to so many people, challenged so many political norms and assumptions, and now it really is over.

And yet, we've won so much. I hope we don't throw it away.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part III)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Gaidin wrote:Did Warren just break the DNC?
Hers', I think, was always going to be a somewhat divisive speech.

The contrast of the two sides on economics was solid, and she sure didn't hold back on going after Trump, but I don't think it moved people in the way that Michelle Obama or Bernie Sanders or Corey Booker did.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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