Episode 8 wish list

[Galvatron]

Abrams took the same liberties with Star Trek. All that "red matter" stuff and the supernova that threatened the whole galaxy was due to Abrams hand-waving the science.

To be honest, I don't blame him. Audiences and critics alike lapped up The Force Awakens just like they (myself included) lapped up his Star Trek. We can nerd rage all we want to each other about the scientific inaccuracies, but when an overwhelming majority of critics and moviegoers are able to suspend disbelief and enjoy the movie anyway, whatever our little clique thinks doesn't really matter.

All we can really do is try to reconcile canon fantasy with fanon science and hope to get some attention (like Saxton eventually did).

[The Romulan Republic]

Let's be honest: is Starkiller Base really any more implausible/ridiculous, or more unexplained, than hyperdrive or the Force were when they were introduced?

We've just had more time to rationalize and justify and get used to those.

[Elheru Aran]

Let's be honest: is Starkiller Base really any more implausible/ridiculous, or more unexplained, than hyperdrive or the Force were when they were introduced?

We've just had more time to rationalize and justify and get used to those.

The counter-argument, I suppose, is that it appears to be out of place in a fairly established universe that, while there are a few outliers, generally operates fairly well along the usual laws. Trying to rationalize its place in this established universe is rather more of a stretch when you take all known metrics into account.

EDIT: I have no great argument with the notion that it will become more palatable with time, as people figure out better explanations than "hyperspace durr". I simply find it rather absurd to begin with. Even compared to the Death Star.

[Galvatron]

There are still aspects of the OT that can't be explained rationally. Example: the Endor non-Holocaust.

Curtis Saxton was right: the explosion of the DS2 should have devastated the surface of Endor's moon, but it didn't. Both the ending of ROTJ and the canon EU support this.

So what we're left with is a choice: continue to insist that it did happen despite all the evidence to the contrary OR rationalize a quasi-plausible explanation for why it didn't happen.

[Patroklos]

Let's be honest: is Starkiller Base really any more implausible/ridiculous, or more unexplained, than hyperdrive or the Force were when they were introduced?

We've just had more time to rationalize and justify and get used to those.

There is a big difference between opening world building and introducing something into it later. When ANH is came out it was the opening info to establish the universe. Audiences immediately begin scaling and evaluating what they see to understand the universe they are viewing. We are told there are moon sized battlestationsmin this world and there is nothing out there to contradict this. We are also told this is the ultimate achievement of a super powerful galaxy wide state that was unbelievable to the people that were in it. The effect is we get an upper limit and the Death Stars are it.

There were problems with this as the next installments came out because the more pieces we have, more pieces have to fit together. Why is there noting in between the Star Destroyer and the DS? Well, we get shown an a Executor and the size of the galaxy opens up with the EU so give us an Empire with the size and economy to be capable of building it in the first place. And of course the two DSs are largely portrayed as foolish wastes of resources. This all continues to entrench the opening world building.

Then all,of a sudden, inserted into this existing world, we get something hundreds of times as large and thousands (millions?) of times more powerful, when the new setting establishes none of the parties are as powerful as the Galaxy spanning Empire from before.

Essentially my suspension of disbelief requirements increase the more the rules of the world are established, because there are now rules that can be allied.

[Adam Reynolds]

Patroklos nails exactly what is wrong with it from a technical standpoint. Adding something in a developed setting is different than changing a new one. If The Force Awakens were in the position of A New Hope, Starkiller Base would have been fine in that sense. Though it was made worse by the underlying narrative problem that Starkiller Base was added haflway through the film rather than built up throughout, which gets back to the structural problems with the film.

All of A New Hope was about establishing just how amazing the Death Star and how much of a threat it was. It was mentioned in the opening titles, the reason Leia was chased by Vader, and the mcguffin of the plot was all about it. In The Force Awakens, by contrast, the entire plot was about finding Luke, with that being reflected in all of the above. Starkiller Base simply appeared and was used with no buildup, and then blown up almost immediately afterwards with no real work involved. There is an entire movie about the buildup to destroying the Death Star coming out in December. Starkiller Base was blown up with a clever trick from Han and incredibly lousy internal security.

The final battle should have reflected the rest of the plot of the movie and instead been about stealing the final map section, as they assumed the First Order had the only copy. You could then instead have a partial victory in that the heroes get out alive and prevent the First Order from finding Luke, but are unable to solve the problem. R2 finally wakes up with the final segment, having finally broken the encryption he has spent the last several years working on, gaining a bit of help from what Rey and Finn recovered.

As for a set piece, you could use something like the Star Forge instead of another Death Star, even using the visual of drawing from the star in a similar fashion. For the problem of dramatic timing, you could have the station trap Leia's command ship with tractor beams, as the First Order wants the section of the map that she controls given that they lost Rey when Han showed up. Destroying the station is the only means to free her, allowing the finale to play out as it did in the film, with Han and company blowing a hole in the station and Poe making his trench run. Leia could have been planning her own escape using a tactic to likely destroy her ship via ramming the station, with her own escape unlikely.

Thus you would have a battle that feels familiar in terms of setpieces, but is actually new in terms of tactics*.

* Though they are largely stolen from Timothy Zahn. Clone Wars notably did this on one occasion as well(Storm Over Ryloth), when Ashoka nicely used a trick from his books against a fleet of droid frigates, after Anakin had blown up the command ship.

[SAAA]

I know they were just rumors but starkiller base was supposed to be some kind of fortress, not a superweapon, before it turned into just that.
We probably missed a space battle (including that rumored republic superweapon ship) and got Death Star 3 instead so hopefully episode 8 makes up for that with some kind of conflic, in space, with more than a fighter and a single Star Destroyer.
Seriously the Force Awakens has the less "Star Wars" of any title to date, a mere 2 minutes of escape on a Tie, that also got cut because hitting 1 turret can't really mean "we lost all our ventral lasers!" as that officer said.

Wish N°2: Leia and Luke to not die, Chewie too. Unless it's for something significant like killing Snoke or such.

Wish N°3: be more original. SW7 was too much of a 4-5-6 blend and 30 years old one at that. Avoid EU and give us new worlds, new threats in the same old galaxy.

[CetaMan]

The best part is the officer says "we lost all our ventral lasers" after they shoot a MISSILE TURRET. Good job abrams, showing your science...

[Elheru Aran]

The best part is the officer says "we lost all our ventral lasers" after they shoot a MISSILE TURRET. Good job abrams, showing your science...

Not even science. Just bad writing.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

The best part is the officer says "we lost all our ventral lasers" after they shoot a MISSILE TURRET. Good job abrams, showing your science...

They were combination missile and laser turrets, like something out of Traveller?

[U.P. Cinnabar]

(including that rumored republic superweapon ship)

Funny you should mention that:

[Mange]

I know they were just rumors but starkiller base was supposed to be some kind of fortress, not a superweapon, before it turned into just that.

I don't think Starkiller base was ever supposed to be anything else (The Art of Star Wars: The Force Awakens revealed that it was ILM's Dennis Muren who came up with the basic idea of Starkiller Base, the "fortress" bit was most likely a production code).

We probably missed a space battle (including that rumored republic superweapon ship)

The Warhammer, an enormous ship capable of bringing down planetary shields. Concept art for it can be found on page 180 in the aforementioned "The Art of"-book. It did thus exist at some point during the pre-production phase.

What I want for Episode VIII:
* Rey being a Skywalker (the Saga is about the Skywalkers after all)
* A more unique plot
* A visual blend between the OT and PT
* More interesting locations (I don't think TFA had much of that... We had Tatooine 2.0, Yavin 4 2.0 and a mix between Endor and Hoth. The only locations that stood out were Maz's castle and Ahch-To)
* I would really want to see Coruscant again...

[SAAA]

Funny you should mention that:

...

That's awesome, didn't notice at all they made another HISHE of the Force Awakens, a republic Death Star... First Order is done if they fixed the exhaust port, no wait, actually they don't have pilots lucky enough to even hit it!

I don't think Starkiller base was ever supposed to be anything else (The Art of Star Wars: The Force Awakens revealed that it was ILM's Dennis Muren who came up with the basic idea of Starkiller Base, the "fortress" bit was most likely a production code).

The Warhammer, an enormous ship capable of bringing down planetary shields. Concept art for it can be found on page 180 in the aforementioned "The Art of"-book. It did thus exist at some point during the pre-production phase.

What I want for Episode VIII:
* Rey being a Skywalker (the Saga is about the Skywalkers after all)
* A more unique plot
* A visual blend between the OT and PT
* More interesting locations (I don't think TFA had much of that... We had Tatooine 2.0, Yavin 4 2.0 and a mix between Endor and Hoth. The only locations that stood out were Maz's castle and Ahch-To)
* I would really want to see Coruscant again...

I must have that book! I just saw a preview on youtube and it's absolutely amazing, there's like a whole three movies worth of material there, concept arts of the Warhammer are pretty new and inspired too. They were going for something like a torpedo sphere idea, just with ramming instead.
So many ideas got cut in the end... let's see if some get in ep.8

I absolutely agree on the last point, Coruscant is something that I absolutely loved in the prequels, plus it reminds me so much of Trantor and the Asimov books that inspired Lucas.
There were just two shots of the Osnian capital but they looked cool enough bathed in red light, almost like a Coruscant 2.0. during sunset.
Visually speaking one of the best moments in the movie, ignoring scientific plausibility.

[The Romulan Republic]

The best part is the officer says "we lost all our ventral lasers" after they shoot a MISSILE TURRET. Good job abrams, showing your science...

Not even science. Just bad writing.

That sounds less like bad writing and more like the director or effects guys not following what was in the script.

[Mange]

The best part is the officer says "we lost all our ventral lasers" after they shoot a MISSILE TURRET. Good job abrams, showing your science...

Not even science. Just bad writing.

That sounds less like bad writing and more like the director or effects guys not following what was in the script.

I really don't know from where CetaMan got that it was a missile turret they destroyed: It was two turbolaser (I suppose) turrets they destroyed (other turrets of the same kind were firing on the TIE some ten seconds before Finn destroyed the two front turrets). The missile turret was deployed after the two forward turrets were destroyed. Still, it's cringe-worthy (the dialogue and the fact that other turrets were visible).

[Grumman]

What I want: "Three good scenes, and no bad ones." Nothing that makes me think to myself, "No, that's fucking stupid."

Let's be honest: is Starkiller Base really any more implausible/ridiculous, or more unexplained, than hyperdrive or the Force were when they were introduced?

Yes. The Starkiller Base demands we believe that you need the entire life energy output of a star to destroy a few planets. It's like building a thermonuclear bug zapper.

[Crazedwraith]

What I want: "Three good scenes, and no bad ones." Nothing that makes me think to myself, "No, that's fucking stupid."

Let's be honest: is Starkiller Base really any more implausible/ridiculous, or more unexplained, than hyperdrive or the Force were when they were introduced?

Yes. The Starkiller Base demands we believe that you need the entire life energy output of a star to destroy a few planets. It's like building a thermonuclear bug zapper.

You need the entire life energy output of a star to destroy a few planets. from another starsystem

I'm not aware of what a sensible amount of energy would be for accelerating a laser beam through hyperspace is.

[Galvatron]

You need the entire life energy output of a star to destroy a few planets. from another starsystem

I'm not aware of what a sensible amount of energy would be for accelerating a laser beam through hyperspace is.

Not to mention that it can destroy more than one planet at the same time.

[Adam Reynolds]

But why does it need to do so from another star system? That is largely the part that is so stupid. And generally speaking, destroying multiple worlds in the same system in unnecessary overkill.

Besides the underlying dual problems with Starkiller Base. That it was built by a group with a fraction of the galaxy's resources, and that it had no buildup in the story. By contrast, the entire plot of A New Hope and the upcoming Rouge One is all about the revolutionary threat of the Death Star. Starkiller Base cheapens that.

While you could argue the same about the second Death Star, which I would at least partially agree with, it was merely an evolved version of the now established technology. As opposed to something that was even more powerful and just as revolutionary.

[The Romulan Republic]

But why does it need to do so from another star system? That is largely the part that is so stupid. And generally speaking, destroying multiple worlds in the same system in unnecessary overkill.

Eh, no more unnecessary overkill than the Death Star itself, really.

As to why do it from another star system- you don't think the ability to hit anywhere in the galaxy at will without even having to come within range of its defences isn't significant?

Besides the underlying dual problems with Starkiller Base. That it was built by a group with a fraction of the galaxy's resources, and that it had no buildup in the story. By contrast, the entire plot of A New Hope and the upcoming Rouge One is all about the revolutionary threat of the Death Star. Starkiller Base cheapens that.

The Death Stars were built with a fraction of the Empire's resources.

Also... technology changes over time. The Death Stars were a revolution in their time. The Starkiller is a revolution 30 years later.

I mean, nuclear weapons were an utter game changer 70 years ago, but now a two-bit shit hole like North Korea has them.

While you could argue the same about the second Death Star, which I would at least partially agree with, it was merely an evolved version of the now established technology. As opposed to something that was even more powerful and just as revolutionary.

See above.

[The Romulan Republic]

There are still aspects of the OT that can't be explained rationally. Example: the Endor non-Holocaust.

Curtis Saxton was right: the explosion of the DS2 should have devastated the surface of Endor's moon, but it didn't. Both the ending of ROTJ and the canon EU support this.

So what we're left with is a choice: continue to insist that it did happen despite all the evidence to the contrary OR rationalize a quasi-plausible explanation for why it didn't happen.

I always just shrug and say "planetary shield". That one's not really tough for me.

We know planetary shielding exists in Star Wars. Hell, Starkiller Base has it. So its not a big leap to think the Rebels installed one on Endor rather than genocide their new allies by way of collateral damage.

[Rogue 9]

Or the canon explanation, which they did bother to give (in the comic books): The Death Star's shield and the planetary shield were projected from a different station than the ones that maintained the planetary shield (recalling that the shield had to be lowered for the Tydirium to land on Endor despite the fact it wasn't headed to the station at all) and the Rebel commandos only blew up the one for the Death Star.

[Adam Reynolds]

Eh, no more unnecessary overkill than the Death Star itself, really.

As to why do it from another star system- you don't think the ability to hit anywhere in the galaxy at will without even having to come within range of its defences isn't significant?

It is less useful when you have something with both the mobility and the raw firepower of the Death Star. By contrast, Starkiller Base has much worse defenses and strategic mobility, requiring its weapon to move instead of the station.

The Death Star isn't actually overkill. It is what is necessary to outright overcome planetary shields through raw firepower, as opposed to the various tricks that are possible. While it is horrible that it would be used, it is reasonable in a technical standpoint. For much the same reason nuclear bunker busters were developed, because conventional weapons can't do the same job.

The Death Stars were built with a fraction of the Empire's resources.

I would argue that they were actually not, at least not the second Death Star. The Death Star really was the key to the Empire's power base, and so they threw much of their industrial potential into building it as quickly as possible. Considering how easily its existence was discovered, it can't have been as secret as the first.

Even the first Death Star still took someone with the resources of the Empire to build in secret, which also happened with Starkiller Base.

Also... technology changes over time. The Death Stars were a revolution in their time. The Starkiller is a revolution 30 years later.

I mean, nuclear weapons were an utter game changer 70 years ago, but now a two-bit shit hole like North Korea has them.

[/quote]
But nuclear weapons don't actually require that much industrial potential to make, at least not like Starkiller Base does.

Star Wars tech is supposed to largely have stasis, rather than the development cycles we are used to on Earth. The Death Star was impressive because it scaled up largely conventional composite beam turbolasers to an unfathomable level, not because it was any technology that was really all that new. Starkiller Base on the other hand really is new.

Besides that, it is something new in an already established franchise that is otherwise largely consistent in technology. It is much the same problem as treknobabble.


In any case, my real problem with it is not technical, it is one of storytelling. The story was about the hunt for Luke, not an attempt by the Resistance to destroy Starkiller Base. Starkiller Base just appeared and did something with no buildup, giving much less of an emotional impact than Leia's experience with the Death Star. Which is something Abrams missed when he was modifying the plot of ANH. By making the finale about Starkiller Base, they also led to a dues ex machina ending with R2 magically solving the Luke plot and thus weakening the payoff there.

[Patroklos]

I'm not aware of what a sensible amount of energy would be for accelerating a laser beam through hyperspace is.

If it has the mass of a laser beam, it should be easier than accelerating basically anything else we see move through hyperspace.

Its probably not a laser mind you, but I see no reason why it would be especially difficult to accelerate plasma with zero "keep meat bags inside from splattering against the bulkheads" requirements into hyperspace. Especially since they can collect said mass from interplanetary distances, contain said mass and energy, and then compress the mass of a star into the a fraction of the volume of a small planet for at least hours, probably days (its actually more impressive the less time it takes as they can collect it that fast), and that apparently the effort and energies used to do this are somehow less than just using them to power the weapon in the first place. The hyperspace and destroying planets part is the LEAST impressive thing about the whole venture.

[NecronLord]

It's probably not too wise to think about Starkiller Base in that kind of detail.