Star Trek Beyond *SPOILERS*

[Lord Revan]

IIRC those were the (extremely weak) weapons the NX-01 were equipped with before it got its phase cannons. It was only in the 2009 film that phasers were actually shown to be used in point defence, shooting down projectiles in much the same was as the Phalanx did in Battleship.

Pulsed Phase Cannon were the upgraded version of phase cannon that got used in the xindi war. Spatial torpedoes were the projectile weapons they initially had before getting 'photonic torpedeos' in the xindi arc.

Presumably photonic torpedoes did not become widespread if the romulan war was fought with nukes.

Assuming that ships smaller than the NX-class weren't retrofitted, or more likely possessed improved versions of what they had since the ones the Enterprise carried were uterly useless.

not utterly useless, it's just that NX-01 goes against ships more powerful/advanced then it more often the the later ships so it might seem weak by comparison that way, also I suspect that whole fleet got retrofitted when the UFP was formed as the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellerites are all more advanced then humans during ENT, assuming they weren't upgraded during the romulan war.

[Alyrium Denryle]

IIRC those were the (extremely weak) weapons the NX-01 were equipped with before it got its phase cannons. It was only in the 2009 film that phasers were actually shown to be used in point defence, shooting down projectiles in much the same was as the Phalanx did in Battleship.

Pulsed Phase Cannon were the upgraded version of phase cannon that got used in the xindi war. Spatial torpedoes were the projectile weapons they initially had before getting 'photonic torpedeos' in the xindi arc.

Presumably photonic torpedoes did not become widespread if the romulan war was fought with nukes.

Assuming that ships smaller than the NX-class weren't retrofitted, or more likely possessed improved versions of what they had since the ones the Enterprise carried were uterly useless.

No, seriously. How were the weapons carried by Enterprise useless? They seemed to hold their own reasonably well against other powers. Unless you are specifically referring to spatial torpedoes which were kinda pants (and obviously of sub-kt yield). I assume they improved the yield on those and that photonic torpedoes did not necessarily become common due to design limitations of the smaller ships. Only so much space in the frame for the launchers and magazines for example.

[K. A. Pital]

Why is everyone saying the Enterprise A is a carbon copy of the 1701? She is clearly a refit design as she is more robust looking in both the nacelles and in the engineering section.http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_E ... CC-1701-A)

Also I'm quoting from Memory Alpha here

The USS Enterprise-A was designed by Sean Hargreaves who described it as “evolutionary rather than revolutionary” in its relationship to its predecessor designed by Ryan Church. Hargreaves also stated that the Enterprise-A was designed with the vulnerabilities of the previous Enterprise being reinforced and visual nods to Matt Jefferies original design being included, such as changing the rim of the saucer from a near-verticle angle to a near-45 degree angle.

It looks pretty similar - not as dramatic a jump as the Ent-B, C, D and E were from each of their predecessors. I'm holding off on stating anything about the Ent-A till some high-quality pictures make their way online, or I see the film again because it's appearance was so quick. Based on that picture I can see how they "built them up" some of the weaknesses as the quote you posted mentions. The nacelles look a bit more sturdy. The position of the saucer does seem tweaked slightly, and I do see the angle on the saucer. But the major components look the same as the ship's predecessor.

I do appreciate that after literally tearing up the Enterprise and exposing all the designs flaws the internet has railed about for years they just make essentially the same darn ship.

Perhaps there's no other way to build Star Trek ships (in-universe limitations - say, radiation shielding requiring the nacelles to be placed outside the habitable space of the ship), so all designs are only slightly improving the construction and not fundamentally altering it. The fascist faction ship in "Into Darkness" was of a sturdier build - meant to be a military vesssel (!), but with the same construction logic as the original Enterprise or any ST version thereof...

[Elheru Aran]

Why is everyone saying the Enterprise A is a carbon copy of the 1701? She is clearly a refit design as she is more robust looking in both the nacelles and in the engineering section.http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_E ... CC-1701-A)

Also I'm quoting from Memory Alpha here

It looks pretty similar - not as dramatic a jump as the Ent-B, C, D and E were from each of their predecessors. I'm holding off on stating anything about the Ent-A till some high-quality pictures make their way online, or I see the film again because it's appearance was so quick. Based on that picture I can see how they "built them up" some of the weaknesses as the quote you posted mentions. The nacelles look a bit more sturdy. The position of the saucer does seem tweaked slightly, and I do see the angle on the saucer. But the major components look the same as the ship's predecessor.

I do appreciate that after literally tearing up the Enterprise and exposing all the designs flaws the internet has railed about for years they just make essentially the same darn ship.

Perhaps there's no other way to build Star Trek ships (in-universe limitations - say, radiation shielding requiring the nacelles to be placed outside the habitable space of the ship), so all designs are only slightly improving the construction and not fundamentally altering it. The fascist faction ship in "Into Darkness" was of a sturdier build - meant to be a military vesssel (!), but with the same construction logic as the original Enterprise or any ST version thereof...

Never mind that there are many other warp-capable civilizations in Trek that use vastly different designs. The TOS Romulan Warbird doesn't use an engineering hull, Klingon Birds of Prey have the warp coils inside the hull, Cardassian craft don't even have nacelles, Vulcan warp ships have a weird circular nacelle... the fact of the matter is either the Federation is leaps and bounds ahead of every other civilization when it comes to warp physics (unlikely) or they simply have a common design aesthetic that they try to stick with (more likely).

[Prometheus Unbound]

*raises hand*

In the prime timeline, NCC 1701 was identical to NCC 1701-A other than the registry number. And no one minded.

Why is anyone complaining about this "error" or "nitpick" ?

[K. A. Pital]

Could it be that the other warp-capable civilizations use their own warp drive designs, which are a closely guarded technological secret, and humans build ships as they know they can - not as other spacefaring civilizations can?

[Elheru Aran]

*raises hand*

In the prime timeline, NCC 1701 was identical to NCC 1701-A other than the registry number. And no one minded.

Why is anyone complaining about this "error" or "nitpick" ?

At least in the films, there was a distinct transition from the TOS Enterprise to the refit-- it was visually distinct in that they tweaked a few lines and most notably changed up the nacelles.

In Kelvin, on the other hand, you only see the new Enterprise for a few seconds in the middle of a bunch of lens flares, and it's almost identical visually. Part of the problem, admittedly, is that we've only seen a Kelvinverse Enterprise in the movies, there's no show to compare it to. So it's like we *started* with Enterprise-A, and we're expecting Enterprise-B.

Could it be that the other warp-capable civilizations use their own warp drive designs, which are a closely guarded technological secret, and humans build ships as they know they can - not as other spacefaring civilizations can?

That's possible, but physics is physics. Take wet-navy submarines; they're all pretty similar in general outline for obvious reasons. Boats tend to have similar hull forms. If warp physics is consistent across the board for everybody out there (exotic travel means like transwarp, the Caretaker Array, etc. aside), then you would expect them to all have similar layouts, distinguished by minor variations in outline, hull material, specific layouts and what not.

TOS, in its own way, was somewhat more consistent as far as this went, as most of the spaceships (Botany Bay aside, but that was explicitly an older pre-warp ship IIRC) had warp nacelles and more or less adhered to Matt Jeffries' design rules.

[Prometheus Unbound]

In Kelvin, on the other hand, you only see the new Enterprise for a few seconds in the middle of a bunch of lens flares, and it's almost identical visually. Part of the problem, admittedly, is that we've only seen a Kelvinverse Enterprise in the movies, there's no show to compare it to. So it's like we *started* with Enterprise-A, and we're expecting Enterprise-B.

Meh, if they did a Kelvin Excelsior and named that the Enterprise-A you'd have legions of fans with pitchforks because "it's not the same as what we had before".

They can't win ><

[Elheru Aran]

In Kelvin, on the other hand, you only see the new Enterprise for a few seconds in the middle of a bunch of lens flares, and it's almost identical visually. Part of the problem, admittedly, is that we've only seen a Kelvinverse Enterprise in the movies, there's no show to compare it to. So it's like we *started* with Enterprise-A, and we're expecting Enterprise-B.

Meh, if they did a Kelvin Excelsior and named that the Enterprise-A you'd have legions of fans with pitchforks because "it's not the same as what we had before".

They can't win ><

*sigh* Yeah.

A simple and fairly obvious change, I thought, would have been to make the warp nacelles somewhat more angular and boxy, evoking the Constitution refit look. But instead all they did was tweak the model a bit. I'm not impressed.

This is a pretty good look (albeit side view only) at the TOS-movie refit changes:



Meanwhile, I don't have any similar references for the Kelvinverse ship, but as I noted earlier you only see it for a few seconds (less than the extended shot that happens in TSFS). You do see a very accelerated view of it being built, but it was too rapid to really see much.

Anyway, it's really one of the least issues with the movie. Just maybe one of the more annoying ones. I don't know. I've probably wasted too much time on EAS today...

[Feil]

Why should she look significantly different? Enterprise NCC1701 (2258-63, RIP) was Starfleet's shiniest new design five years ago, and they have major pieces of her that are still intact to build from. I guess the new Enterprise should be a whole new design because in the Prime Universe, a ship that was already in service in the 2240s got a whole new design thirty years later?

[Elheru Aran]

It's not a practical issue as much as it's stylistic.

Part of the problem is that nu-Trek, thanks to only appearing in films and some (AFAIK) largely non-canon comic books so far, has spanned far less time than happened in the prime timeline. You're of course correct that there's no real practical reason for them to have changed the design that much.

Stylistically though, it would make the transition a little more marked, and show that real change has occurred, rather than it being sort of a "the Enterprise is dead, long live the Enterprise, exactly the same as the first one" kinda thing.

[Feil]

I don't see 1701A as a new ship in this timeline, but a rebuilt old one. The message to me was part of an extended theme in the movie that I really liked: Like her crew and her captain, Enterprise is both vulnerable and tough; she can be hurt, she can be killed, but as long as there's life in her she's never going to quit. By the end, like her crew and her captain, she's back stronger than ever.

I can see how looking at 1701A as a whole new ship would change that perception and make you want a new design, though.

[Elheru Aran]

I don't see 1701A as a new ship in this timeline, but a rebuilt old one. The message to me was part of an extended theme in the movie that I really liked: Like her crew and her captain, Enterprise is both vulnerable and tough; she can be hurt, she can be killed, but as long as there's life in her she's never going to quit. By the end, like her crew and her captain, she's back stronger than ever.

I can see how looking at 1701A as a whole new ship would change that perception and make you want a new design, though.

It's pretty explicitly a ship that they were building new in the Yorktown station that they just changed the name-plate on rather than a similar one of the same class that they renamed.

[bilateralrope]

the fact of the matter is either the Federation is leaps and bounds ahead of every other civilization when it comes to warp physics (unlikely) or they simply have a common design aesthetic that they try to stick with (more likely).

We have had threads here talking about how well Federation ships, which are not dedicated warships, performing rather well against the dedicated warships of other civilisations, usually winning unless outnumbered/outmassed and/or the enemy brings a technological trick that is rarely repeated. Which suggests that the Federation has a major technological edge.

Sure, those threads were talking about the prime universe. But that technological edge probably continues in the Kelvin universe.

[Elheru Aran]

the fact of the matter is either the Federation is leaps and bounds ahead of every other civilization when it comes to warp physics (unlikely) or they simply have a common design aesthetic that they try to stick with (more likely).

We have had threads here talking about how well Federation ships, which are not dedicated warships, performing rather well against the dedicated warships of other civilisations, usually winning unless outnumbered/outmassed and/or the enemy brings a technological trick that is rarely repeated. Which suggests that the Federation has a major technological edge.

Sure, those threads were talking about the prime universe. But that technological edge probably continues in the Kelvin universe.

Ehh.

I do find it possible, even probable, that the forces of the space equivalent of the United States of America/UN are going to have superior equipment and vehicles in general. They've got a lot of highly advanced species in their fold (humanity, Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, etc), they came up with a lot of innovations in space-science, and so forth. I'm okay with them having an edge over single-species empires like the Romulans and Klingons, who mostly consist of one species/planet holding a section of space by force rather than a peaceful union of planets. I mean, the Kirov cruiser was never going to be on a par with the Nimitz, was it?

It could well be that, with the Starfleet to protect them, the Vulcans and other races within the Federation simply don't bother to change their indigenous technology to conform to higher end warp physics. Similarly, most of the antagonists we see outside the greater powers are single-planet peoples outside of the Federation who wouldn't have the benefit of Federation science.

For a more modern comparison, say the Romulans are fielding Chinese type 054A frigates to the Federation's Arleigh Burkes. The Arleigh Burke probably has an edge in electronics and some other areas... but should they go up against each other, it's mostly a matter of who mashes the big red button first, and if the Arleigh is second, it does have active and passive defences that may be stronger than the Chinese ship's weapons and allow it to retaliate.

[Simon_Jester]

There's also the issue that it's very likely that a multi-species federation where there are whole species committed to intellectual refinement, logic, or stubborn pursuit of truth through debate... tends to do well in science. Indeed, one would expect such a group to outperform a species that is so focused on warfare that it reverts to feudalism, or so focused on intrigue that its people can barely collaborate with each other due to sheer mutual suspicion and treachery.

[NecronLord]

The only sensible explanation is that many klingons regard science as a way to gain GLORY AND HONOUR and they have many devoted to it. There's something in the show that contradicts this I recall, but eh.

[SpottedKitty]

It's pretty explicitly a ship that they were building new in the Yorktown station that they just changed the name-plate on rather than a similar one of the same class that they renamed.

Isn't that pretty much what was done in the original Prime-timeline movies? Not sure if it was ever explicitly canon, but I do remember coming across lots of mentions in the years after ST-IV.

[Sea Skimmer]

It's entirely possible that Klingon society reshaped to become more and more militant in response to successes on the battlefield made possible by technological superiority at some past point, which they steadily lost from underinvestment.

Whatever they say about their past history, we have no real reason to believe its actually all that true or actually all that old. They have every reason to lie, and people make that crap up all the time in human history, which also has plenty examples of societies that managed to put warriors first and still retain advanced technology. The Mongols for example. Certainly this gets harder the more complex stuff becomes, but on the other hand holographic tech, AIs and such, might help make the problem less then it would be today.

The Klingons probably have plenty of scientists who don't fall prey to collaboration problems the warriors do, precisely because a scientists they would not be seen as competition for leadership. And thus unworthy of being murdered in ritual combat.

[bilateralrope]

The only sensible explanation is that many klingons regard science as a way to gain GLORY AND HONOUR and they have many devoted to it. There's something in the show that contradicts this I recall, but eh.

What is the Klingon attitude towards doing something that gains a lot of glory and honour for someone else, but little for yourself ?

For example, one person has done a lot of work on some research and development. Then someone else comes along, looks at it from a different point of view and creates major improvements for very little work.

It seems that even if they view science as a way to gain honour, there would be secrecy to prevent someone swooping in and gaining lots of credit for very little work. Drastically limiting the cases where looking at something from a different point of view causes major benefits.

At the same time, multiple species each with their own culture(s) working on the same project would increase the number of ways it's looked at.

[Sea Skimmer]

It seems that even if they view science as a way to gain honour, there would be secrecy to prevent someone swooping in and gaining lots of credit for very little work. Drastically limiting the cases where looking at something from a different point of view causes major benefits.

We have lots of secrecy in arms making anyway. And it may be that scientists do go out and fight, if they create something worthy enough.

For the first several centuries of gunmaking in Europe the master gunner and the gunfounder were the same guy for a prime example. You literally took your own gun out on campaign...this lasted on a large scale until around ~1650. So perhaps this is why Klingon technology became inferior to the Federation, as it did not seem to be so apparently in TOS, too many scientists got blown up testing out the latest Bird of Prey Mark VI superwaffen against the Romulans.

Now if you want a real brain wrecker for this, how is it that Klingons came to accept the cloaking device as honorable and worthwhile, compared to mounting more guns on the ships?

[bilateralrope]

For the first several centuries of gunmaking in Europe the master gunner and the gunfounder were the same guy for a prime example. You literally took your own gun out on campaign...this lasted on a large scale until around ~1650. So perhaps this is why Klingon technology became inferior to the Federation, as it did not seem to be so apparently in TOS, too many scientists got blown up testing out the latest Bird of Prey Mark VI superwaffen against the Romulans.

I can see that happening. Partially with Klingons who see R&D only as a way to earn personal glory in battle. Partly with accusations of dishonour/cowardice towards anyone not willing to risk their own life testing their own inventions. Partly from Klingons not wanting to risk their own lives on unproven devices, so they look for any excuse to avoid the testing. Leading to the testers being subpar crews led by the scientists.

Now if you want a real brain wrecker for this, how is it that Klingons came to accept the cloaking device as honorable and worthwhile, compared to mounting more guns on the ships?

Victory above all ?

Many Klingons without cloaks died when they ran into a fight they couldn't handle. Leaving the decisions about matters of honor to those who were using cloaks.

[Imperial Overlord]

The only sensible explanation is that many klingons regard science as a way to gain GLORY AND HONOUR and they have many devoted to it. There's something in the show that contradicts this I recall, but eh.

There's stuff in the show that supports and contradicts it. The Klingons elevate war and conflict above all so that being a warrior is the highest possible social status, but since war and conflict are the commonly accepted metaphors for all endeavors you also have Klingon lawyers and scientists going all out for success and victory. There is a noticeable cultural shift from TOS and TNG with TNG Klingon culture being concerned with personal honor and glory and TOS being more focused on getting the job done.

[Sea Skimmer]

It was probably a creeping insanity, like how North Korea evolved over a series of purges which first put Kim into power with support of a large cabal, then eliminated the cabal, then eliminated everyone who helps with the elimination, leaving Sung in absolute power by the mid 1970s, and entering isolationist crazy mode in response to the Sino-American rapprochement. But they didn't just spring into absolute madness in 1949, nor have any cultural basis for it other then a generalized monarchy.

The Federation making a functional if not absolute peace with the Romulans and other powers like the Cardassians may have steadily upped the Klingon crazy factor, out of fear of an alliance against themselves. Then they morph and manage, with the Praxis explosion was prompting, to realize the better approach is to ally with the Federation themselves, but by then the crazy is too well entrenched to simply go away. Perhaps it would 1-2 generations after TNG and the Dominion War, the later had to have killed off a huge portion of the existing leadership and would naturally drive change.

[Simon_Jester]

Now if you want a real brain wrecker for this, how is it that Klingons came to accept the cloaking device as honorable and worthwhile, compared to mounting more guns on the ships?

Well, the cloaks appear to have arisen during the 'TOS movie' era. During the TOS era itself, you have smooth-forehead Klingons who seem a lot less obsessed with the "HONOR GLORY PATH OF THE WARRIOR" stuff, which didn't really start to take off again until at least the era of Star Trek VI and maybe not even then.

Maybe the cloaking device was a product of that period, and well... Klingons who use cloaking devices win, and winning is glorious, so it must be okay, right? Plus, standard Klingon ships can't fire while cloaked, so you have to uncloak and see the whites of the enemy's eyes before you blow them up. Honorable, right?

And after a generation or two, cloaking devices are traditional, and who wants to argue with tradition, especially when it would probably result in them getting their asses kicked in a space battle?

Plus, quite frankly I can't understand why anyone in Star Trek who hasn't explicitly promised not to would ever NOT use cloaking devices on ships that could conceivably need to sneak up on someone. It's just a good idea all around for military purposes, and for that matter for peaceful purposes if you're trying to avoid conflict either through deterrence or through denying potential aggressors any easy targets.

So for me, the question isn't "why do Klingons use cloaking devices," it's "how come the Cardassians, the Borg, pretty much the entire Delta Quadrant, the Dominion, and so on don't?"

The Klingons probably have plenty of scientists who don't fall prey to collaboration problems the warriors do, precisely because a scientists they would not be seen as competition for leadership. And thus unworthy of being murdered in ritual combat.

This is very true. And we've actually seen, I think, references to, say, the logs of a Klingon research vessel whose captain talks about how he goes out to 'struggle with the unknown' and brings back 'spoils' of observational data or whatever. I forget where that comes from.

I'm sure the Klingons have a functioning research and engineering establishment, it's inconceivable that they could function as a starfaring society without one.* The Romulans, likewise, the Cardassians likewise, and so on. But it's very much plausible that the Federation has simply pulled ahead of them over the 200 years or so between Enterprise and the DS9/VOY era, because having a bunch of Vulcan scientists working on how to build a better shield generator is probably going to end better than hiring a bunch of Klingons to do the same thing.

Somehow I find myself picturing this:
http://www.whompcomic.com/2011/08/01/th ... t-klingon/
___________________________________

*For an example of a society that really has lost the intellectual wherewithal to be a star-traveling species in Trek, look at the Pakleds.

Incidentally, my pet theory to explain them is that they went down the route of 'appification' past a point of no return. We see today a trend toward making advanced technology easy to use, with touch-screen interfaces that replace a lot of words and detail with big friendly icons to do the things you're most likely to want them to do.

Extrapolate this trend far enough and it becomes a problem, because at some point the average member of your society ceases to perceive the need for complexity beyond the level of canned interfaces and "there's an app for that."

Eventually, the last generation of competent Pakled technologists strove to make their technology so easy to use that even a complete ignoramus could operate it. Unfortunately, this isn't sustainable. Some number of generations later, you have barely-literate Pakleds flying around in run-down ships that run on scientific principles they don't understand, trying to kidnap better-educated aliens to make essential repairs and upgrades. And the future of the galaxy is determined by the power-users who understand and tinker with their hardware, in order to improve upon it.

Obviously this is utterly noncanon and probably contradicts some canon somewhere, but I like it.