Lasers

[Darth Servo]

You need sufficient momentum to make a ship as big as the E-D move noticably. Yes, a pea-shooter will impart some momentum to the Enterprise. Will this change be noticable? Absolutely not. The lasers in Conundrum were stated as "2.1 megajoules." That is NOT sufficient energy to cause any noticeable movement on a ship massing millions of tons.

never said a peashooter would make the ship move I said they would have an effect on the shields. also as proof on the fact that the shields do infact have a reaction with lasers and phasers , is by the fact that the ship rocks when it shouldn't move at all.

WHY would the ship "rock" from being hit by a weapon that doesn't have nearly enough energy to move the unprotected ship by any noticable amount.

So you admit that some laser energy will get through. Concession accepted. Don't you realize what this discussion is about? There is an old Trekkie myth that the nav-deflectors are somehow magically immune to any and all lasers based on one little quote in "Outrageous Okona".

doesn't work like that i'm afraid, Lasers have wavelengths, within the light specturm as i'm sure you know so just because the shields let visable light through does not mean they will let a laser in.

Why not? The fact that lasers have specific wave-lengths does NOT mean that the nav-deflector has some magic ability to keep out infinite amounts of it. That's what this discussion is about after all. Quit trying to rationalize how the nav-deflectors might be immune to lasers w/o providing any evidence that they are in the first place.

to put it frank a laser energy would all get through or none of it would unless it was a "different" type to what is used in modern day, which uses varying wavelengths in the laser allowing some energy to get past the shield.

More BS. The only "evidence" for the "immunity to lasers" myth is semantic interpretation of one little quote. There is ZERO reason to think that the shields can stop infinite amounts of laser energy. There is zero reason to believe that its all or none like you put it.

Based on DW's shield page, a laser that matches the shield frequency with a phase angle of zero would be canceled out in the area of shield interaction while one with a phase angle of 180 degrees would pass effortlessly through. This says NOTHING about a laser that does NOT match the shield frequency (let alone a laser of greater power than the shields can handle). Some energy would pass through, some would not.

We don't NEED to prove that Fed nav deflectors can't stop lasers regardless of energy level. The burden of proof is on the person argueing that the nav-deflector can stop lasers of any power level.

The fact is, if a 2.1 MJ weapon can make the E-D shake noticeably, then the only possible conclusion is that some of the energy penetrated the defense systems and interfered with the sensitive equipment inside the ship responsible for keeping the ship steady.

the statement is proof in itself, unless there is counter evidence to disprove the statement. I believe thats how canon evidence works, charter statements are below visable evidence. so unless you have proof of a laser strike on the area of the ship the nav deflector covers the statement is true.

While the statement itself is canon, your interpretation of it is not. Get it yet? Thats why dialogue is a poor source of information. It can usually be interpreted many different ways.

the second point, no its not the only possable conclusion you already stated that energy is not enough to move a ship of the enterprises size, to make the ship vibrate would mean there is some large kinetic force acting apon the ship which can't have come from that laser energy as you have already stated. so the conlusion that the shields react in some way with incoming energy loads would seem so be supported by this statement.

Again, WHY would a miniscule amount of energy cause a large ship to shake? Where does the energy come from? It CAN'T come from nowhere. IF (as according to your "theory") any weapon hitting the shield creates an "effect" causing the ship to "rock" then the energy must come from the ship itself.

Did the designers of the GCS delibrately make a ship that would vibrate whenever its hit? That may be a good idea in the honeymoon suite, but its TERRIBLE on a combat ship. You do NOT want to disrupt your crew with pointless shaking in the middle of a fight.

I repeat, the only conclusion that makes any sense is that some of the laser energy some how got through the shields to mess with something inside the ship (possibly the directional controls or the engines) which caused it to shake.

Too bad you have no evidence to back up this little "theory" of yours. A theory without any evidence is worthless.

see above.

The above consists of nothing but your pointless repetition of your unsupported sematic interpretation of dialogue.

[Wrath]

WHY would the ship "rock" from being hit by a weapon that doesn't have nearly enough energy to move the unprotected ship by any noticable amount.

you tell me your the only explanation you've come up for the ship rocking is , that the laser caused damage to some systems yet you can give no evidence to support you claim.

Why not? The fact that lasers have specific wave-lengths does NOT mean that the nav-deflector has some magic ability to keep out infinite amounts of it. That's what this discussion is about after all. Quit trying to rationalize how the nav-deflectors might be immune to lasers w/o providing any evidence that they are in the first place.

i've never stated anywhere they where immune, or that they could sustain infinite amouts of energy, what I said was shields and seeming by picards statement can block the lasers while at full power, not that it could sustain constent attack apon them.

More BS. The only "evidence" for the "immunity to lasers" myth is semantic interpretation of one little quote. There is ZERO reason to think that the shields can stop infinite amounts of laser energy. There is zero reason to believe that its all or none like you put it.

Based on DW's shield page, a laser that matches the shield frequency with a phase angle of zero would be canceled out in the area of shield interaction while one with a phase angle of 180 degrees would pass effortlessly through. This says NOTHING about a laser that does NOT match the shield frequency (let alone a laser of greater power than the shields can handle). Some energy would pass through, some would not.

and the proof for your theory is going to be provided when?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

What about the TNG episode "Conundrum." Thats the episode were the crew is under the influence of a alien being, who wants to use the Enterprise to destroy his enemies main base.

In that episode the Enterprise is hit repeatedly by lasers, and the ship was shaking around a bit. If regular lasers have no effect on the Ent-D shields, then why were they causing the ship to shake around so much???

if you fire anything at the shields a pea shooter ect... it'll have an effect on them, the fact that the ship was shaking due to a laser hit doesn't mean it damaged the ship, just that the laser had some kintic impact on the ship. causing her to move.

Okay, well I have what might sound like a st00pid Trekkie objection here, but I'm sure you'll all educate me...

Lasers travel at c; lasers thus have no mass, thus no kinetic energy, thus cannot produce impact effects. Whatever the Borg hit the E-D with did produce impact effects, thus suggesting KE or mass, thus not fitting the converntional definition of a laser.

Somebody point out the fallacy or inaccuracy in there, because even I am almost sure there is one.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I also want to throw in that I'm with Darth Wong on the dialogue policy -- dialogue alone is not a solid indicator of anything. Jargon, slang, euphemism and metaphor are all human linguistic habits, and combined with the subjectivity of the character issuing the dialogue can conspire to utterly fuck any sense of validity in the statement.

The only time dialogue is useful is in exposition of motives, not capabilities, and even then it must be treated as subordinate to what we actually see.

[Darth Servo]

you tell me your the only explanation you've come up for the ship rocking is , that the laser caused damage to some systems yet you can give no evidence to support you claim.

The evidence is called "process of elimination". The other explanations either make no sense or violates the laws of physics. My explanation DOES make sense and doesn't violate any physical laws. Therefore, mine wins.

i've never stated anywhere they where immune, or that they could sustain infinite amouts of energy, what I said was shields and seeming by picards statement can block the lasers while at full power, not that it could sustain constent attack apon them.

Then you don't understand the discussion on this thread. There IS an old Trekkie myth that the nav-deflectors on a Fed ship are some how immune to attacks from laser weapons.

If you are going to argue something else, this isn't the thread to do it.

my interpritation of what picard said is as follows , lasers of the tpye picard is used to based on tech the federation stopped using as a weapon 100s of years ago , would have little or no impact on the shields of nav deflector,

If you think they have "no impact on the shields or nav-deflector", you ARE saying they are immune. You'll be a lot more believable if you don't contradict yourself.

"Little impact" is a whole different matter.

you are the one who keeps bring up they are immune, I will also take you back to the fact that no matter which way they statement is taken you keep asking me to prove the fact. well proof is picard statement thus it is canon,

And what part of "your interpretation of that statement is not canon" do you not understand?

any interprationg people chose to take from that can be left up to them the statement is broad and wide ranging.

Some interpretations make a lot more sense than others.

and the proof for your theory is going to be provided when?

Which theory are you refering to? The one where a 2.1MJ blast shook the Enterprise? Blast hits E-D. E-D shakes. 2.1MJ is NOT sufficient energy to shake a ship as massive as the E-D. What is so difficult to understand about this? All of your "alternative theories" about this incident make absolutely no sense what-so-ever.

You had better not be a mod playing games.

[Wrath]

What about the TNG episode "Conundrum." Thats the episode were the crew is under the influence of a alien being, who wants to use the Enterprise to destroy his enemies main base.

In that episode the Enterprise is hit repeatedly by lasers, and the ship was shaking around a bit. If regular lasers have no effect on the Ent-D shields, then why were they causing the ship to shake around so much???

if you fire anything at the shields a pea shooter ect... it'll have an effect on them, the fact that the ship was shaking due to a laser hit doesn't mean it damaged the ship, just that the laser had some kintic impact on the ship. causing her to move.

Okay, well I have what might sound like a st00pid Trekkie objection here, but I'm sure you'll all educate me...

Lasers travel at c; lasers thus have no mass, thus no kinetic energy, thus cannot produce impact effects. Whatever the Borg hit the E-D with did produce impact effects, thus suggesting KE or mass, thus not fitting the converntional definition of a laser.

Somebody point out the fallacy or inaccuracy in there, because even I am almost sure there is one.

read the rest of my posts about the possablty of the shields reacting with lasers then come back to me.

[Wrath]

I also want to throw in that I'm with Darth Wong on the dialogue policy -- dialogue alone is not a solid indicator of anything. Jargon, slang, euphemism and metaphor are all human linguistic habits, and combined with the subjectivity of the character issuing the dialogue can conspire to utterly fuck any sense of validity in the statement.

The only time dialogue is useful is in exposition of motives, not capabilities, and even then it must be treated as subordinate to what we actually see.

what I would say is wongs opinions aren't in question i've said the statement is open to many interpitations, all of which can be proven back that simple statement. what i've argueing is if you want to disprove any of these interpitations you need proof to do so.....

[Wrath]

The evidence is called "process of elimination". The other explanations either make no sense or violates the laws of physics. My explanation DOES make sense and doesn't violate any physical laws. Therefore, mine wins.

really thats cool because given the laws of physics as we know them neutronium can't exist outside a back hole yet has several times on star trek, so explain, how you can bring the laws of physics into play without proving anything?

Then you don't understand the discussion on this thread. There IS an old Trekkie myth that the nav-deflectors on a Fed ship are some how immune to attacks from laser weapons. If you are going to argue something else, this isn't the thread to do it.

I know very well the myth, but not once have I stated I supported it your the one who first came forward and attacked me as supporting it. i've argued about the lack of proof againist the nav deflector not being able to stop limited laser hits nothing else.

If you think they have "no impact on the shields or nav-deflector", you ARE saying they are immune. You'll be a lot more believable if you don't contradict yourself."Little impact" is a whole different matter.

well if you want to go into phyics again , current lasers won't have any impant on the shields in a phyical sense, it would cause damage to the shield in a limited way ofcorse but since we where argueing about the enterprise shaking the impact sence on the hull or shields as you have explained the shields to be would be 0.

And what part of "your interpretation of that statement is not canon" do you not understand?

well prove my interpretation is wrong, it can't be that hard to do, the statement can lead to several possabltys so prove which one is true.

Some interpretations make a lot more sense than others.

sense is irrelent you have stated several times , opinions and theorys don't count unless proven, picard statement proves my theory in a loose sense you have yet you give better evidence to disprove this theory or prove another....

Which theory are you refering to? The one where a 2.1MJ blast shook the Enterprise? Blast hits E-D. E-D shakes. 2.1MJ is NOT sufficient energy to shake a ship as massive as the E-D. What is so difficult to understand about this? All of your "alternative theories" about this incident make absolutely no sense what-so-ever.

see above, this is science fiction, laws of phyics are often completely ignored which is why we rely so much on visable evidence to support our claims, you can not disprove my theory any more then saying it doesn't make sense but the again you can not claim to understand how shields work. so prove my thoery is wrong.

You had better not be a mod playing games.[/quote]

[Master of Ossus]

WHY would the ship "rock" from being hit by a weapon that doesn't have nearly enough energy to move the unprotected ship by any noticable amount.

you tell me your the only explanation you've come up for the ship rocking is , that the laser caused damage to some systems yet you can give no evidence to support you claim.

Sure he did. The firepower of the laser-weapons on the attacking craft is known, and is NOT sufficient to rock a starship weighing NEARLY as much as the Enterprise-D. That indicates that the weapon was affecting an internal system, which in turn was moving the ship.

i've never stated anywhere they where immune, or that they could sustain infinite amouts of energy, what I said was shields and seeming by picards statement can block the lasers while at full power, not that it could sustain constent attack apon them.

WTF are you talking about? Lasers can be stopped by the ship's shields at full power, but HOW POWERFUL ARE THE LASERS THAT CAN BE STOPPED BY SUCH SYSTEMS?

He already provided it. What else could cause the ship to rock when it was struck by that miniscule amount of energy? The ship's systems were clearly affected by the impact of the lasers. Those weapons DID AFFECT the E-D's systems, unless you have an alternate explanation as to what could account for the ship's shaking, which does not violate Occam's Razor. Provide a competing theory or get out.

[Master of Ossus]

The evidence is called "process of elimination". The other explanations either make no sense or violates the laws of physics. My explanation DOES make sense and doesn't violate any physical laws. Therefore, mine wins.

really thats cool because given the laws of physics as we know them neutronium can't exist outside a back hole yet has several times on star trek, so explain, how you can bring the laws of physics into play without proving anything?

WTF are you talking about? Neutronium obviously exists outside of black holes. Moreover, neutronium can exist even outside of a neutron star. However, it cannot be shaped into slabs like the ones seen in ST, so there are clearly two different substances going around masquerading under the same name.

Then you don't understand the discussion on this thread. There IS an old Trekkie myth that the nav-deflectors on a Fed ship are some how immune to attacks from laser weapons. If you are going to argue something else, this isn't the thread to do it.

I know very well the myth, but not once have I stated I supported it your the one who first came forward and attacked me as supporting it. i've argued about the lack of proof againist the nav deflector not being able to stop limited laser hits nothing else.

But you ignore the only observed instance of the E-D coming under "limited" laser fire. In that instance, its systems were affected, in spite of its shields.

If you think they have "no impact on the shields or nav-deflector", you ARE saying they are immune. You'll be a lot more believable if you don't contradict yourself."Little impact" is a whole different matter.

well if you want to go into phyics again , current lasers won't have any impant on the shields in a phyical sense, it would cause damage to the shield in a limited way ofcorse but since we where argueing about the enterprise shaking the impact sence on the hull or shields as you have explained the shields to be would be 0.

WTF?

And what part of "your interpretation of that statement is not canon" do you not understand?

well prove my interpretation is wrong, it can't be that hard to do, the statement can lead to several possabltys so prove which one is true.

The E-D was shaken by the impact of the laser. That proves that its systems were being affected THROUGH THE SHIELD of the E-D.

[Wrath]

Sure he did. The firepower of the laser-weapons on the attacking craft is known, and is NOT sufficient to rock a starship weighing NEARLY as much as the Enterprise-D. That indicates that the weapon was affecting an internal system, which in turn was moving the ship.

no you see thats an assumtions there is no canon evidence to say there was damage to the enterprise, so there is no more evidence to support his thoery then there is mine.

WTF are you talking about? Lasers can be stopped by the ship's shields at full power, but HOW POWERFUL ARE THE LASERS THAT CAN BE STOPPED BY SUCH SYSTEMS?

thats not up to me to prove is it.... since i'm not argueing an immunity, i'm saying the shields can be affected by shields, i'm giving no figures just stating my opinion, you want to get into such figures go ahead.

Unfortunately for you, the shields WERE AFFECTED by the lasers. A substantial amount of energy passed through the shields, and damaged the ship itself.

and you can prove it was the laser engery that got through the shields and not an interaction between the shields and laser which caused the damage? there is a difference here.

He already provided it. What else could cause the ship to rock when it was struck by that miniscule amount of energy? The ship's systems were clearly affected by the impact of the lasers. Those weapons DID AFFECT the E-D's systems, unless you have an alternate explanation as to what could account for the ship's shaking, which does not violate Occam's Razor. Provide a competing theory or get out.

again your stateing an unproveable theory and as my friend there has said many times prove it, my theory states there is an interaction between the shields and as such causing a kinetic impact. equal so I can no more prove my theory then his but again you can not disprove it. since you do not know the phyics on which ST shields are based there is no way to prove what interactions if any will occour thus the area of theory.

[Wrath]

WTF are you talking about? Neutronium obviously exists outside of black holes. Moreover, neutronium can exist even outside of a neutron star. However, it cannot be shaped into slabs like the ones seen in ST, so there are clearly two different substances going around masquerading under the same name.

aah so now you want to bend the rules of phyics, so neutronium can be 2 things, ok how about warp drive current impossable , transporters, warp 10 or the speed of light in normal space which ever you prefer. all these are impossable to get given the law of phyics so again tell me ST does follow that law

But you ignore the only observed instance of the E-D coming under "limited" laser fire. In that instance, its systems were affected, in spite of its shields.

and I ask you to prove the damage is caused by your theory of overflow from the shields or disprove my thoery from the damage being caused by an interaction between the weapon and shields, there is a differnce between the 2.

WTF?

[dum down mode] the laser has no phyical impact on the ship but interacts with the shield[/dum down mode]

The E-D was shaken by the impact of the laser. That proves that its systems were being affected THROUGH THE SHIELD of the E-D.

the fact the ship shakes proves both thoerys which is right, I claim theres an interaction between the shield and the laser you claim between the ship and the laser, can you disprove mine ?

note the fact i'm not claiming yours is wrong i'm simply asking you to prove you claim through more the words, onscreen evidence as such.....

[Darth Servo]

The evidence is called "process of elimination". The other explanations either make no sense or violates the laws of physics. My explanation DOES make sense and doesn't violate any physical laws. Therefore, mine wins.

really thats cool because given the laws of physics as we know them neutronium can't exist outside a back hole yet has several times on star trek, so explain, how you can bring the laws of physics into play without proving anything?

Red herring fallacy. We are talking about LASERS, not neutronium. And just because ST may ignore the laws of physics in SOME instances, that doesn't mean we throw them out all the time.

Then you don't understand the discussion on this thread. There IS an old Trekkie myth that the nav-deflectors on a Fed ship are some how immune to attacks from laser weapons. If you are going to argue something else, this isn't the thread to do it.

I know very well the myth, but not once have I stated I supported it your the one who first came forward and attacked me as supporting it. i've argued about the lack of proof againist the nav deflector not being able to stop limited laser hits nothing else.

Wrong. You DO support the myth. You said that lasers have "no impact on the shields or nav-deflector". If your weren't saying immunity, then what were you saying?

If you think they have "no impact on the shields or nav-deflector", you ARE saying they are immune. You'll be a lot more believable if you don't contradict yourself."Little impact" is a whole different matter.

well if you want to go into phyics again , current lasers won't have any impant on the shields in a phyical sense,

Since energy shields like in ST don't exist in real life, please provide some EVIDENCE for this stupid claim of yours.

it would cause damage to the shield in a limited way ofcorse but since we where argueing about the enterprise shaking the impact sence on the hull or shields as you have explained the shields to be would be 0.

By "zero" I assume you mean that the shileds are completely down? Where did I ever claim shields needed to be down? Trek ships almost ALWAYS start taking damage LONG before shields fail.

And what part of "your interpretation of that statement is not canon" do you not understand?

well prove my interpretation is wrong, it can't be that hard to do, the statement can lead to several possabltys so prove which one is true.

I don't need to prove it wrong since its IMPOSSIBLE for a weapon to have "no effect" on a shield. Any amount of energy will do some damage to the shield system, even if that dammage is miniscule

buuutttt, if you insist on being an asshole, how about the fact that just sitting next to an ordinary star can threaten the ship? How about the fact that in "Loud as a Whisper", Picard refused to enter a war zone contested with "Laser" weapons? Your interpretation is completely ludicruos and yet you think it should be taken seriously.

sense is irrelent you have stated several times, opinions and theorys don't count unless proven,

Only if multiple theories make sense and one is supported by evidence while the others are not. However, if one theory makes sense while the other does not, even grade school children know to pick the one that makes sense over the one that doesn't.

picard statement proves my theory in a loose sense you have yet you give better evidence to disprove this theory or prove another....

Semantic interpretation of a piece of dialogue is NOT reliable evidence and doesn't "prove" anything. You seem to have a very difficult time understanding this simple concept.

Which theory are you refering to? The one where a 2.1MJ blast shook the Enterprise? Blast hits E-D. E-D shakes. 2.1MJ is NOT sufficient energy to shake a ship as massive as the E-D. What is so difficult to understand about this? All of your "alternative theories" about this incident make absolutely no sense what-so-ever.

see above, this is science fiction, laws of phyics are often completely ignored which is why we rely so much on visable evidence to support our claims,

Relying on visible evidence IS using the scientific method. You are NOT using visible evidence to support your theory. You are using semantic interpretation of dialogue which is an extremely poor form of evidence and if directly contradicted by visible evidence is totally WORTHLESS form of evidence.

you can not disprove my theory any more then saying it doesn't make sense

Showing that your theory doesn't make sense doesn't disprove it? Are you on drugs?

but the again you can not claim to understand how shields work. so prove my thoery is wrong.

I HAVE provided evidence to support my theory (laws of physics and common sense) and prove yours wrong. You just repeat over and over again that these should be ignored because its "sci-fi"

YOU are ignoring evidence just so you can sell your brain dead interpretation of dialogue. How old are you anyways?

[Darth Servo]

no you see thats an assumtions there is no canon evidence to say there was damage to the enterprise, so there is no more evidence to support his thoery then there is mine.

How many times can one person ignore the simple fact that 2.1 mj is NOT enough energy to move the E-D significantly. Are you a Darkstar wannabe?

WTF are you talking about? Lasers can be stopped by the ship's shields at full power, but HOW POWERFUL ARE THE LASERS THAT CAN BE STOPPED BY SUCH SYSTEMS?

thats not up to me to prove is it.... since i'm not argueing an immunity,

Liar. You think lasers have "no impact on the shields of nav deflector" You stupid asshole.

i'm saying the shields can be affected by shields, i'm giving no figures just stating my opinion, you want to get into such figures go ahead.

Then your argument is WORTHLESS. Don't you get it? If the lasers have "no impact on the shields of nav deflector" then the figure is infinity. If lasers DO damage nav-deflector defenses, then you DO need figures for how much is needed to punch through. I can believe I'm actually debating with someone this stupid.

Unfortunately for you, the shields WERE AFFECTED by the lasers. A substantial amount of energy passed through the shields, and damaged the ship itself.

and you can prove it was the laser engery that got through the shields and not an interaction between the shields and laser which caused the damage? there is a difference here.

I alread discussed this point but you ignored it. If the energy didn't come from the laser, it must have come from the ship (it CAN'T come from nowhere). Are you really trying to say that the E-D actually shakes itself everytime it gets hit by a weapon no matter how small? Are you TRYING to make Federation engineers look even dumber than they already are?

my theory states there is an interaction between the shields and as such causing a kinetic impact. equal so I can no more prove my theory then his but again you can not disprove it.

We don't NEED to disprove it since you have done NOTHING to back it up in the first place. Where is your evidence for this "kinetic impact" between laser and shield? Are you a creationist?

since you do not know the phyics on which ST shields are based there is no way to prove what interactions if any will occour thus the area of theory.

Oh, so we can't absolutely disprove your theory, therefore yours wins by default? The theory that wins is the one that fits the facts and uses the fewest terms (in that order). Your theory does NEITHER of these. You have provided no facts to fit and you added an extra term (your kinetic impact) with no evidence supporting it.

aah so now you want to bend the rules of phyics, so neutronium can be 2 things, ok how about warp drive current impossable , transporters, warp 10 or the speed of light in normal space which ever you prefer. all these are impossable to get given the law of phyics so again tell me ST does follow that law

Funny neutronium, transporters and FTL travel are all OBSERVED PHENOMENA in Trek so they MUST be accepted. Your little "kinetic impact" theory is not, so you need to provide EVIDENCE for its existance.

and I ask you to prove the damage is caused by your theory of overflow from the shields or disprove my thoery from the damage being caused by an interaction between the weapon and shields, there is a differnce between the 2.

Our theory NEVER claimed the energy was "overflow" from the shield. It simply stated that some of the energy got through the shield somehow. There is plenty of canon precedence for ships taking damage BEFORE shields fail throughout Trek.

[dum down mode] the laser has no phyical impact on the ship but interacts with the shield[/dum down mode]

And that interaction with the shield magnifies the energy by orders of magnitude?

the fact the ship shakes proves both thoerys which is right, I claim theres an interaction between the shield and the laser you claim between the ship and the laser, can you disprove mine ?

Thats an over simplified version of your theory. You claim that the shield MAGNIFIES the amount of energy from the laser by orders of magnitude (the amount needed to shake the ship) w/o any supporting evidence. We simply look at the fact that the energy is insufficient to do the work needed, so something INSIDE the ship must be responsible. There is NO canon evidence that the shields move the ship, but there IS canon evidence that things like the engines do (thats what they're for after all). Our theory wins.

note the fact i'm not claiming yours is wrong i'm simply asking you to prove you claim through more the words, onscreen evidence as such.....

IOW, you want us to provide MORE evidence in addition to what we've already given while you do absolutely nothing.