Imperial Guard with Space Marine Gunships

[Honorius]

Going over 40K Fluff, we of course have the 8' tall Space Marines who use specialized gunships such as the Stormraven, Storm Eagle, and Thunderhawks to deliver their strike forces while the Imperial Guard gets the Valkyrie and Arvus (Better in HH games with the 4th Book Rules).

Now even if we just stick with Space Marine numbers for Guardsmen passengers (which is silly but bear with me), a Stormraven can deliver 12 Elysian Drop Troops and a Drop Sentinel and provide much heavier firepower and more ways of deployment. Also fluff wise a a stock Tauros or Drop Sentinel can fit in a Valkyrie so in theory a Stormraven could carry either one completely protected by armor from space.

That is just for a Stormraven. If we figure a normal guardsmen takes up only a third to a quarter of the space an Astarte does... Well then the Guard has the perfect drop ship for deploying advance teams to secure a landing zone and a far superior gunship than the Valkyrie Family to assist them and has far superior performance, especially if they are modified to be used by stock humans such as the Solar Auxilia of 30K or Drop Troops, Veterans, and Temptus Scions of 40K.

So for the purpose of this thread, just how many guardsmen can we cram into Stormraven, Storm Eagle, and Thunderhawk variants and how many light vehicles and what might a dedicated vehicle transporter variant of these might be able to deploy if adapted to the Imperial Guard?

[NecronLord]

A million or so. Total.

Meanwhile the space marines aren't saving the day due to lacking their gunships. As a recent example from Death Masque:
Spoiler

Space marine transports being given to the guard and not the marines means that Eldrad Ulthran would have succeeded in waking Ynnead, which would have snuffed out the astronomicon and destroyed Slaanesh. The galaxy would belong to the Eldar once more.

They can't produce more than tens or hundreds of thousands of these vehicles, if they could they'd be widespread anyway.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Assuming a Guardsman requires a fourth of the space of an Astartes, and not allowing for vehicles:

Thunderhawk: 120 Guardsmen
Storm Eagle: 80 Guardsmen
Stormraven: 48 Guardsmen

[NecronLord]

The idea of an 8' average space marine height is one that GW authors discredit even when they admit that it's become more and more common to write about it.

And it's a very generous interpretation to suggest that each marine takes up space for four people when we see things like human-issue rhinos which don't hold 40 people.

[Honorius]

The idea of an 8' average space marine height is one that GW authors discredit even when they admit that it's become more and more common to write about it.

And it's a very generous interpretation to suggest that each marine takes up space for four people when we see things like human-issue rhinos which don't hold 40 people.

Well we are talking a franchise that can't manage its lore worth a damn.

But if this cover art from The Unremembered Empire is actual size comparison of a Human to Primarch and the Primarchs were said to be 1.5 to 2 heads taller than Astartes, well we got serious issues then with scale of Space Marine Vehicles then going off of IA Books as realistically then they can't hold the numbers they are supposed to then. The scale doesn't jive. Then again we got the same scale problems with Leman Russ Tanks whose guns don't match the scale we're given by the models.

[NecronLord]

Or those guys in the foreground of that picture are genebred/ratling-esque mini-men selected to make the new Regent look bigger, or just not to distract the adoring masses from the Emperor - Beloved by All - s, Successor. The Imperium would never stoop to such silly propa - wait, yes. Yes it would. That's totally a thing they'd do.

[NecronLord]

In fact, there was even a halfling familiar for Inquisitor that was about to a normal human's waist/chest. Link - can't find a picture of the scale. But doesn't he look just like one of those guys but less elaborately dressed?

[Honorius]

In fact, there was even a halfling familiar for Inquisitor that was about to a normal human's waist/chest. Link - can't find a picture of the scale. But doesn't he look just like one of those guys but less elaborately dressed?

Perhaps. But even if we accept this scale as more reasonable, a stock human of average height only takes up half the space of an Astarte.

[Simon_Jester]

Again, there is still the very relevant point that if the Imperium had the tooling and capacity to mass-produce things like Thunderhawks or Land Raider tanks, the Guard would be operating them too, not just the Marines. And if they can't be mass-produced, then issuing them to the Guard in tiny numbers instead of to the Marines is pointless.

Meanwhile, Guard vehicles like the Chimera and the Leman Russ are arguably superior to their Marine counterparts anyway, at least for the purposes the Guard uses them for.

[NecronLord]

In fact Rhinos are mass produced, and used by the Arbites, but there is no doubt a reason they don't give them to the guard, Chimeras being a better IFV may well be one.

In any case, rhinos don't carry twenty or forty men. This is a legacy of the conception of marines as considerably smaller even than the 7' to 7'6" level Jes uses, and shouldn't be over-analysed as we soon realize that the marines can't actually *fit* into some of their vehicles, given that the lengths are known values.

[Elheru Aran]

Rhinos are also used by the Sisters of Battle and the Inquisition.

I'm guessing they're being assigned something of a 'higher end APC' quality. For example, it wouldn't be unusual for a troop of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers to use a Rhino rather than a Chimera, if that's the vehicle that the Inquisitor commanding them happened to requisition and they were considered better quality than the usual line of stormtroopers.

[Honorius]

Again, there is still the very relevant point that if the Imperium had the tooling and capacity to mass-produce things like Thunderhawks or Land Raider tanks, the Guard would be operating them too, not just the Marines. And if they can't be mass-produced, then issuing them to the Guard in tiny numbers instead of to the Marines is pointless.

Its not that they can't mass produce them, its the fucked up nature of the Imperium's Bureaucracy that refuses to share information between Forgeworlds, actually bans the Guard from having Land Raiders, and a bunch of other mind boggling stupidity because Grimdark.

[Elheru Aran]

Again, there is still the very relevant point that if the Imperium had the tooling and capacity to mass-produce things like Thunderhawks or Land Raider tanks, the Guard would be operating them too, not just the Marines. And if they can't be mass-produced, then issuing them to the Guard in tiny numbers instead of to the Marines is pointless.

Its not that they can't mass produce them, its the fucked up nature of the Imperium's Bureaucracy that refuses to share information between Forgeworlds, actually bans the Guard from having Land Raiders, and a bunch of other mind boggling stupidity because Grimdark.

I should note that Land Raiders are either a.) fucking old and highly valuable or b.) rare and highly valuable or c.) all of the above. You don't give that to squishy Guardies, even the Stormtroopers, because there's only so much use they could get out of it. Space Marines on the other hand-- and don't forget that the Land Raider is used to carry Terminators, so even better Space Marines-- can use it to its fullest capacity as a deep-striking, precision instrument.

Now a Lord General or some such... but they've got vehicles for the purpose like the Leviathian and the Capitol Imperialis, or a command variant of the Baneblade, or something like that.

[Simon_Jester]

Again, there is still the very relevant point that if the Imperium had the tooling and capacity to mass-produce things like Thunderhawks or Land Raider tanks, the Guard would be operating them too, not just the Marines. And if they can't be mass-produced, then issuing them to the Guard in tiny numbers instead of to the Marines is pointless.

Its not that they can't mass produce them, its the fucked up nature of the Imperium's Bureaucracy that refuses to share information between Forgeworlds, actually bans the Guard from having Land Raiders, and a bunch of other mind boggling stupidity because Grimdark.

Do you have evidence that the Adeptus Mechanicus is capable of producing Land Raiders in the numbers required to outfit the Imperial Guard, and simply refuses to do so?

[Rogue 9]

It's been consistent fluff for years that the Emperor restricted the use of Land Raiders to the Astartes during the Horus Heresy owing to the traitor legions inflicting so much damage and stealing so much war materiel that they needed every hull they could get, and since the Immortal God-Emperor never rescinded His most holy command that only the Astartes may use Land Raiders (owing, of course, to being a vegetable), only the Astartes may use Land Raiders, even though production is no longer a problem.

[NecronLord]

Forge World have added in that Anvilus 9, where Land Raiders were primarily produced, was destroyed during the Heresy and nowhere else could pick up the slack. Which is sad, as I liked the idea that they could scale up Land Raider production whenever they wanted. Previous sources gave the impression that Anvilus had been reclaimed for the Imperium but in fact it was razed.

[Honorius]

Again, there is still the very relevant point that if the Imperium had the tooling and capacity to mass-produce things like Thunderhawks or Land Raider tanks, the Guard would be operating them too, not just the Marines. And if they can't be mass-produced, then issuing them to the Guard in tiny numbers instead of to the Marines is pointless.

Its not that they can't mass produce them, its the fucked up nature of the Imperium's Bureaucracy that refuses to share information between Forgeworlds, actually bans the Guard from having Land Raiders, and a bunch of other mind boggling stupidity because Grimdark.

Do you have evidence that the Adeptus Mechanicus is capable of producing Land Raiders in the numbers required to outfit the Imperial Guard, and simply refuses to do so?

Rogue 9 already beat me to it, but also in the new AdMech Codex, Techpriests can take Landraiders and being Techpriests they got more goodies on them. Fuck if you managed to read through the mind boggling stupidity of Mont'Ka, the AdMech when they want to can out Gundam the Tau and not only did so but then quit without explanation only to show up later and put a ring of fire around the Tau 3rd Sphere expansion to cut it off...

Its Game Workshops what did you expect.

[Simon_Jester]

The fact that the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce significant numbers of tricked-out Land Raiders for themselves does not mean they can do so in nearly the quantity required to equip the Guard.

[Honorius]

The fact that the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce significant numbers of tricked-out Land Raiders for themselves does not mean they can do so in nearly the quantity required to equip the Guard.

Actually they can, its just a matter of prioritizing correctly and sharing info between Forgeworlds. Take the Crassus for example, its basically the Guard's version of a Landraider and has far better stats and can pack two HK missiles. Thousands were used on Betalis III by the Cadian Units there. Fluff wise its becoming very common around the Eye of Terror.

[NecronLord]

You'd imagine the bottleneck on Land Raider production would be the cogitator with a "maximum contemplation capacity of 10,000 kilobrains," really.

[Simon_Jester]

Honorius, since you have the books easily available based on how quickly you reference Forge World vehicles, I'd like to ask: Does the Crassus just have more firepower and/or armor protection compared to the Land Raider? Or does it also have superior electronics and other advanced features?

Can it fight with no crew, as a Land Raider can?

[Rogue 9]

Referencing Imperial Armour Volume One (Second Edition): The Crassus is much larger than a Land Raider, less heavily armored on the sides and rear, and much less heavily armed by default (though you can pay to stick lascannons on there piecemeal). It carries a lot more guys, but no, it does not have the Power of the Machine Spirit rule, which is used to represent vehicle AI on the tabletop.

These rules are out of date, being written under both the old Apocalypse rules and the old Imperial Guard codex. For instance, it's Overdrive rule (which allows it to move at cruising speed despite being superheavy) is superfluous now, since superheavies are no longer unable to move at cruising speed. But even if the Crassus has been updated to the latest ruleset, I doubt it suddenly has AI.

[Sea Skimmer]

You'd imagine the bottleneck on Land Raider production would be the cogitator with a "maximum contemplation capacity of 10,000 kilobrains," really.

Umm, they need that for what exactly in a vehicle primarily armed with low angle weapons which are the 40K equivalent of water cooled machine guns?

Bottleneck on the power plants, were they compact and complex enough, would be more logical. Say the engines not only are hard to make but only last 300 hours...so most of the power plants off the line simply go into existing vehicles kind of problem. That issue was pretty horrendous in WW2 for the Germans for various reasons, some of which could affect the Imperium, such as possible loss of supplies of alloying agents needed for some high stress gearing ect..

[Elheru Aran]

Lascannons=water cooled machine guns? I don't think so. They're more like 6pdr/75mm cannon or whatever. Now if you're talking the Land Raider Crusader, sure (six twin linked heavy bolters, twin linked assault cannon). But that's explicitly a close assault vehicle for breaking into fortifications and wreaking havoc among the defenders while the Assault Terminators exit and start breaking stuff.

The cogitator is important because... reasons. Out of universe, there's no good reason to have an 'autopilot' or whatever on a tank. In universe... I can see it being a way to temporarily free up the driver to take over gunnery duties (directing the lascannon for example) while maximizing space inside the vehicle for Terminators or Honour Guard. Land Raiders are frequently used as the transport for Space Marine leadership, so it's not impossible that they use the cogitator to facilitate situational analysis and maximizing the efficiency of their troop dispositions.

[Simon_Jester]

Having autonomous AI is not necessarily that important, and certainly wouldn't be important for Guard Land Raiders- but it is one of the more unusual and advanced features found on the Land Raider.

Speculatively, Space Marines are so few in number that they might prefer a vehicle where certain functions can be entrusted to onboard AI. Especially in a vehicle like the Land Raider that could easily require an unusually large crew due to having numerous fixed weapons mounts requiring their own gunners.
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I guess my point is that despite having a 'retrograde' hull form, the Land Raider is described as being an unusually sophisticated and powerful tank- and it's certainly a very well protected tank, with substantial armament and some unusual capabilities well beyond what we usually see in Imperium armored vehicles. So I see no reason to assume that the Land Raider could easily be mass-produced much beyond the level required to equip the Space Marines and a modest number of Adeptus Mechanicus heavy tank units.