World of Warcraft: Legion

[TheFeniX]

Jaina confirmed for only sane person in Azeroth. If Blizz had balls, you would be able to break away and join her.

The Horde used Dalaran portals to stage a fucking attack on Darnassus and get access to the Focusing Iris to nuke an Alliance city. All with the help of the Sunreavers. Said Sunreavers deserve to rot in the Violet Hold. Also of note, they attack Alliance players in the scenario because they think you're there to rescue survivors.

"Oh but that was Garrosh." Garrosh, who had enough loyalist support to fight against the combined Alliance and Rebel attack. Garrosh and these Orcs that had non-combatants fighting in the street for sport and using children as hostages.

This isn't even coming as an Alliance player, just someone who can see reality: fuck. the. Horde. Not the playerbase. The Horde as a thematic faction in the Warcraft universe. They are dangerous to have around at all. Thrall is pretty much the only Orc that isn't a warmongering idiot and the only one who can keep the Horde from eating everything. Their current leader raises Alliance dead to create more of their faction. And she doesn't just wait for them to die of natural causes. She's been very loosely reined in over the years, now she has the authority to just go all-out.

The Broken Shore bullshit is just the latest example. I don't care if Azeroth needs to be united, since the whole uniting thing was bullshit because the Horde WILL backstab the Alliance at the first convenient opportunity. Also, VICTORY OR RETREAT!

But here's what's going to happen. Sylvannas will become the strong woman lead we'd like to see. They'll 180 her like they tried to do the Undead playebase. In the meantime, Jaina will go batshit crazy and devolve into joke and raid/dungeon boss. And it won't be anything cool either.

I think that decision also made the tree awkward thematically. If you randomly polled people and, without taking the actual contents of the talent trees into account, asked them whether Frost or Blood was the more tank-y theme, most people would probably say Frost hands down. Because ice is cold, solid, and unyielding, while blood is thematically hotter and more ferocious. But by making Blood the slow durable tank spec and Frost the frenetic DPS spec, Blizzard gave both specs the themes that are more appropriate with the other.

I like the idea of a Tank that leeches like from it's enemies and enrages them to attack him through boiling their blood. I also like the idea of a Frost tank. But their decision to stick with Frost as a DW DPS was dumb.

If anything, they should have made Blood a DW tank. But that has it's own issues.

[Steve]

So the Blizz writers still shamelessly prefer one faction over the other and think they're being completely fair?

[TheFeniX]

It's not even about the preference or fairness, if it even exists, to me. It's about blatant stupidity on part of the characters in the game via bad writing so they can continue to facilitate more bad writing. They want to show badass things and they do that. A Blizz writer would say "Yea, well: Ally got to raid Org." Ignoring the reasoning leading up to that raid. But just knocking down Org's walls and getting our Garrosh kill stolen by Thrall doesn't accomplish anything besides removing one idiot from power.

Anyways,
When they want to show something badass on part of the Horde, it's usually to the detriment of the Alliance.
When they want to show something badass on part of the Alliance, it's usually to the detriment of the actual bad guys.

Just the latest example:
King Chin goes out like a badass taking as many Demons (and even a god damn fel reaver) with him.
Queen Dead Asshole shows her leadership, grabs Vol'Jins useless ass, and calls in the Valks to rescue Thralls useless ass and takes over the Horde. Oh yea, and fleeing with all her forces and leaving the Alliance to rot, getting King Chin killed in the process.

Lore'themar for warchief. That the Horde playerbase isn't chanting that is a sin and shows how much pent up aggression they have against Belfs. I swear, Belf only DH was done specifically to piss them off (or, I hope it was).

In their efforts to "calm down" the Horde, they continually fail. They are not an enlightened faction even though the writers and developers like to TELL US THIS CONSTANTLY, but never actually show it.

They ignored the problems that allowed these situation to develop in the first place: fucking Orcs and Forsaken. Orcs who jump at any opportunity to convert to racism and war crimes. Orcs who are like "Man, these Night Elves are kicking our ass: BETTER DRINK DEMON BLOOD!" after they invaded Nelf territory and started clearing whole forests for lumber. Two major races in the Horde are bloodthirsty maniacs (Orcs and Forsaken) or can be easily coerced into becoming so. Forsaken who constantly need to and do kill humans and elves to bolster their ranks, even targeting non-combatants in the case of Gilneas.

Greymane has every right to hate Sylvannas as much as he does and I'd love to see him tear her throat out Worgen style. I'm so glad he wasn't in the throne room all "yea, we need the Horde." No, he's like "fuck the Horde" because he's not an idiot.

Meanwhile, entire Alliance races are defined by what the Horde/Orcs have taken from them. Really, only the Night Elves have an issue as IIRC they tried to wipe out the Trolls a long time ago. But Blizzard don't give no fucks about Nelves anymore. Instead of ferocious and primal warriors with heavy Amazon leanings: they're "fapbait" now.

[Civil War Man]

This isn't even coming as an Alliance player, just someone who can see reality: fuck. the. Horde. Not the playerbase. The Horde as a thematic faction in the Warcraft universe. They are dangerous to have around at all. Thrall is pretty much the only Orc that isn't a warmongering idiot and the only one who can keep the Horde from eating everything. Their current leader raises Alliance dead to create more of their faction. And she doesn't just wait for them to die of natural causes. She's been very loosely reined in over the years, now she has the authority to just go all-out.

I remember reading something where someone went through every Orc who could claim the title of Warchief, including the original Horde, the modern Horde, and several of its offshoots (like Rend Blackhand's Dark Horde and Kargath's Fel Horde), up to and including Garrosh. As you said, the only one who could even get their followers within spitting distance of civilized was Thrall. What really got interesting was when they dug deeper into each Orc's backstory to determine what made Thrall different. It wasn't shamanism, because Ner'zhul was a shaman. It wasn't not drinking demon blood, because Doomhammer didn't drink Mannoroth's blood. It wasn't living outside the post-Second War internment camps, because Rend Blackhand was able to avoid getting sent to one. And it wasn't not being a veteran of the First and Second Wars, because Garrosh did not fight in them, either. The only thing that differentiated Thrall from the rest was that he was not raised by Orcs. Doesn't say very good things about Orc society, that the best way to keep them from indiscriminately waging war against their neighbors is to make sure their leaders are raised by Humans.

But here's what's going to happen. Sylvannas will become the strong woman lead we'd like to see. They'll 180 her like they tried to do the Undead playebase. In the meantime, Jaina will go batshit crazy and devolve into joke and raid/dungeon boss. And it won't be anything cool either.

I would not be surprised. One of the biggest weaknesses of Jaina as a character is that sometimes it seems she only exists as a foil to another character. Jaina's switch from being the main human trying to create peace between the Alliance and Horde to the main human trying to cause war between the Alliance and Horde coincides precisely with Varian's attitude getting toned down and Anduin becoming a more prominent character.

I like the idea of a Tank that leeches like from it's enemies and enrages them to attack him through boiling their blood. I also like the idea of a Frost tank. But their decision to stick with Frost as a DW DPS was dumb.

If anything, they should have made Blood a DW tank. But that has it's own issues.

I think Blood eventually turned out okay as a tank because the leeching mechanic does fit with a vampire aesthetic. Frost is really the one that's trying to use a theme that doesn't fit.

The way I see it, if we were to look at what mechanics would fit the aesthetic of each spec, tanking with a Blood theme involves leeching health, tanking with a Frost theme would be more soaking damage through hardened defenses like Warriors and Paladins, while tanking with an Unholy theme would involve debuffing opponents so they can't hit as hard. Meanwhile, DPSing with a Blood theme would be fast-paced and frenzied (by that standard, Blood would have made more sense as the DW tree), Frost DPS would be slower attacks that hit like an avalanche, and Unholy DPS would be swarms of undead, magic, and diseases. Going by that standard, Blood and Unholy are appropriate, but the devs seem to be trying to force Frost into a play style that is thematically more appropriate for Blood.

As a side note, regarding one of the dev comments (I think from Celestalon) about their vision of DK mobility, one of the best responses I've seen to it can be summed up as, "Nothing captures the class fantasy of a mounted unit from the RTS's quite like a lack of mobility."

[Zwinmar]

As for me, Horde lost its appeal when that whining bitch Garrosh got put in charge. The Wrathgate seems like the last time the Horde did anything good. This coming from a long time Horde player.

[Grumman]

I'm with you 100%, Fenix. I do have more Alliance characters than Horde, but Sylvanas, Garrosh and their followers are one of the three big reasons why. On the Alliance side I've got no problem doing zone questlines for any race unless I'm doing something ridiculous like trying to play a pacifist, but on the Horde side I've pretty much stopped short at Ashenvale and anything to do with the Forsaken. Every time I've gone into Forsaken territory and had a look at the quests they offer, it only takes a few before they're asking me to do something morally reprehensible to prisoners or help them restock the WMDs that turned Hillsbrad into such a shithole.

[TheFeniX]

I would not be surprised. One of the biggest weaknesses of Jaina as a character is that sometimes it seems she only exists as a foil to another character. Jaina's switch from being the main human trying to create peace between the Alliance and Horde to the main human trying to cause war between the Alliance and Horde coincides precisely with Varian's attitude getting toned down and Anduin becoming a more prominent character.

I remember thinking "not even Blizz would off their only lead female....... oh wait, Sylvannas." I wouldn't put it past them because they have Dead Chick on tap and they obviously aren't afraid to start offing old-hat characters for drama since the writers really just don't give a shit.

I'm thinking she starts railing horde asses hard and the Alliance ends up helping the Horde out. And they're all "psha, like we needed your help." Either that or they give Sylvy her "you go girl moment" and she somehow beats Jaina is a straight up fight. Which would be pretty laughable.

But whatever they do, they can kiss my ass. Any enemy of Laura Bailey is an enemy of mine.

The way I see it, if we were to look at what mechanics would fit the aesthetic of each spec, tanking with a Blood theme involves leeching health, tanking with a Frost theme would be more soaking damage through hardened defenses like Warriors and Paladins, while tanking with an Unholy theme would involve debuffing opponents so they can't hit as hard. Meanwhile, DPSing with a Blood theme would be fast-paced and frenzied (by that standard, Blood would have made more sense as the DW tree), Frost DPS would be slower attacks that hit like an avalanche, and Unholy DPS would be swarms of undead, magic, and diseases. Going by that standard, Blood and Unholy are appropriate, but the devs seem to be trying to force Frost into a play style that is thematically more appropriate for Blood.

Obviously, we couldn't have 3 viable tank specs. Even I wouldn't ask Blizz to do that. But, like you said, Frost got DW dumped off on it due to old shit, even though it really didn't fit thematically and the old talent system meant you could pick it up for any spec. At the time these changes were made, hitting the boss was a big deal and threat was actually an issue again. The parry hasting mechanics alone would have kicked DW tanking out.

But literally any other spec would have fit DW better other than Frost. And normally I wouldn't bitch and I never did up until this "Class Fantasy" shit started getting thrown around. Because, as a guy who mains DK and Paladin: "Class Fantasy" seems to translate to "Fuck Paladins and Death Knights."

As a side note, regarding one of the dev comments (I think from Celestalon) about their vision of DK mobility, one of the best responses I've seen to it can be summed up as, "Nothing captures the class fantasy of a mounted unit from the RTS's quite like a lack of mobility."

When my work is finished, I'm coming back for you.

I'm with you 100%, Fenix. I do have more Alliance characters than Horde, but Sylvanas, Garrosh and their followers are one of the three big reasons why. On the Alliance side I've got no problem doing zone questlines for any race unless I'm doing something ridiculous like trying to play a pacifist, but on the Horde side I've pretty much stopped short at Ashenvale and anything to do with the Forsaken. Every time I've gone into Forsaken territory and had a look at the quests they offer, it only takes a few before they're asking me to do something morally reprehensible to prisoners or help them restock the WMDs that turned Hillsbrad into such a shithole.

And none of that would annoy me, but since Cata: Blizzard has been telling us that the Horde is the same as the Alliance: just looking to get by, make a home, whatever. It's bullshit. Across nearly any contested zone. The Horde may never have been the "Bad guys" in Classic (unlike the Imperials in SWTOR), but they were definitely not just anti-heroes. They were brutal, savage, and didn't subscribe to the same code of honor the Alliance did. They were blood thirsty, with the exception of the Tauren. Man, even the Belfs are addicts.

But Blizzard constantly SHOWS us all this, then in dev interviews say "nah guys, nah. They're really cool. We changed some dialog, Sylvy is totally NOT mind-controlling the undead. She's not the Lich King! GAH, YOU GUYS ARE SO MEAN!"

Meanwhile, Varian is "bloodthirsty" in WotLK because he tells the Crusades guys "if the Horde pull anything, I'll fuck them up." This is in the same zone where pre-leader Garrosh is saying shit like "Fuck all this, we should just kill all the Alliance right now. To Hell with the armistice." Considering what the Horde put Varian through, he should be the one wanting to eat every fucking Horde chicken at the tournament. Instead, we have to spend an entire expansion ignoring him (Cata), then having him "learn things" (MoP). I mean, holy shit: they made TYRANDE (WoW Tyrande, mind you. Post-WC3: the Nelfs are now tree-hugging weenies Tyrande) into the impatient and violent one just to show Varian as becoming more of a leader than an ass-kicker.

I miss ass-kicking Varian because he was also one of the few sane people. Wrathion was so right: Alliance banners should be hanging in Org. What are the Tauren going to do? Throw cow patties at the gates?

[Lord Revan]

The problem isn't so much the depiction of the Horde but rather the Alliance we're told that there's bad people on the alliance side but those people and their actions are always conviently "off-screen" as to not mess with the virtous image of the alliance, which makes the Horde look much, much worse as we see the bad people on the horde side, a few people who acted Like Grand Marshall Garithos would have helped loads to not have horde seems much a "designated hero" faction.

[TheFeniX]

I agree with your sentiment, but not the reasoning for it. It's not about maintaining the clean nature of the Alliance. It's because Blizzard finds the faction (read: humans) boring to write for, so they don't bother with any kind of internal strife. At least not since the Dark Iron Dorf BS (why can't I roll a Dark Iron BTW? WTF?). I mean, the Gilnaens came back to the Alliance only due to the threat of genocide. We could have had something else, some bridge building, an Alliance membership with a Faction lead who argues with Varian because Greymane is kind of a dick at times. LOL NOPE: Horde going to gas us all, Alliance saved us, "My people and I owe the Alliance everything. Happy family again. Also, we're werewolves."

They write Horde stories because that's what they want to do. They can't leave the Alliance hanging, so damn near every major Alliance chain involves the Horde, usually Ally reaction to what the Horde is doing.

Greymane, Varian, Jaina, (lesser extent) Anduin: why are they all where they are at now? Actions of the Horde.
Why is Garrosh eating dirt? Because he made a play to become a God and failed. This one character pushed the events of two expansions along. No Ally character has done that. Arthas doesn't count since he was the LK long before WoW. Who's Gul'dan? What faction did he create? Thrall: Green fucking Jesus, better than the aspects, and even has time to knock up his girlfriend.

Joke example: Deathwing was a damned Horde Hero unit back in Warcraft: "Do you like fire? I'M FULL OF IT!"

They want to write engaging stories for the Horde. They do this with intra-faction fighting and other BS. However, by creating all this strife and leaving nothing but roses and cupcakes for the Alliance: any attempt to say the Horde isn't a bunch of warmonger dipshits (well, at least the Orcs and Forsaken) is laughable. Any attempt to compare them elicits even more laughs.

I say the only real reason, without Thrall involved, the new Horde hasn't become the old Horde is because they can't: there's always some other faction kicking down Azeroths door looking to kill everyone. But, based on all the shit I've seen in this game: if Burning Ass Lesions and Old Gods gave up and just left Azeroth in peace, there would be another Ally/Horde war because they Horde cannot help itself. And it damn sure wouldn't be started by the Alliance.

No, the only time Blizzard lets the Alliance act like dicks is when they need something from them. Like, some Alliance guy is a jerk to a Belf, so Belfs join the Horde.... for reasons I guess.

EDIT: stupid auto-correct.

[Civil War Man]

Obviously, we couldn't have 3 viable tank specs. Even I wouldn't ask Blizz to do that. But, like you said, Frost got DW dumped off on it due to old shit, even though it really didn't fit thematically and the old talent system meant you could pick it up for any spec. At the time these changes were made, hitting the boss was a big deal and threat was actually an issue again. The parry hasting mechanics alone would have kicked DW tanking out.

But literally any other spec would have fit DW better other than Frost. And normally I wouldn't bitch and I never did up until this "Class Fantasy" shit started getting thrown around. Because, as a guy who mains DK and Paladin: "Class Fantasy" seems to translate to "Fuck Paladins and Death Knights."

Yeah, I realize that the all specs can tank philosophy wouldn't work. I just brought up both tanking and DPS for all three specs as a way of illustrating what options were available.

To be honest, I don't think it would have been that bad an idea to have taken away DK's ability to dual wield entirely and had them just use two-handed weapons. I can't think of a single Death Knight in lore who dual wielded before WotLK came out, and dual wielding in-game was always a pretty niche play style for DKs in Wrath.

That said, it feels as though Blizzard's philosophy for designing DKs, particularly for Mists and Warlords, has been to make the class technically functional while making the least number of changes possible. It's basically, as I mentioned previously, always taking the path of least resistance, at least from a design perspective. Blood became tank only, even though it was even more popular as a DPS spec, because most DK tanks in ICC were Blood. Frost became the dual wield tree because it always had the dual wield talents in it.

DK also seems to be the class they are least comfortable experimenting with. For example, while they are offering pet-less builds for Marksmanship Hunters and non-Demonology Warlocks, there's no sign of any attempt at the same for Unholy. Or when they came up with Gladiator Stance in WoD so you could DPS as a Protection Warrior, years after killing Blood DPS and segregating Cat and Bear druids because they felt it was too hard to balance tank and DPS in the same tree. Though that may be a blessing in disguise, since the last time they tried to experiment with DKs they broke the rune system and had to cover up that gaping chest wound with the Runic Empowerment band-aid ever since.

The problem isn't so much the depiction of the Horde but rather the Alliance we're told that there's bad people on the alliance side but those people and their actions are always conviently "off-screen" as to not mess with the virtous image of the alliance, which makes the Horde look much, much worse as we see the bad people on the horde side, a few people who acted Like Grand Marshall Garithos would have helped loads to not have horde seems much a "designated hero" faction.

The most hilarious example of that is Camp Taurajo. To hear some talk of it, it was the worst thing that has ever happened since the bombing of Dresden, yet it only happened because the Alliance troops didn't follow the general's orders, most of the civilians in the Camp escaped anyway, and the general tasks the Alliance player with arresting the troops who acted out of line as soon as they arrive. Yet he is killed off-screen as retribution for his heinous sins, on the orders of an Orc who has a reputation of skinning Worgen so he can sew their scalps into a cloak.

Speaking of Garithos, though, I think Blizzard missed a huge opportunity not making Garithos one of the new Four Horsemen. That would have made the DK campaign in Legion a hundred times more interesting.

[Lord Revan]

The problem isn't so much the depiction of the Horde but rather the Alliance we're told that there's bad people on the alliance side but those people and their actions are always conviently "off-screen" as to not mess with the virtous image of the alliance, which makes the Horde look much, much worse as we see the bad people on the horde side, a few people who acted Like Grand Marshall Garithos would have helped loads to not have horde seems much a "designated hero" faction.

The most hilarious example of that is Camp Taurajo. To hear some talk of it, it was the worst thing that has ever happened since the bombing of Dresden, yet it only happened because the Alliance troops didn't follow the general's orders, most of the civilians in the Camp escaped anyway, and the general tasks the Alliance player with arresting the troops who acted out of line as soon as they arrive. Yet he is killed off-screen as retribution for his heinous sins, on the orders of an Orc who has a reputation of skinning Worgen so he can sew their scalps into a cloak.

Speaking of Garithos, though, I think Blizzard missed a huge opportunity not making Garithos one of the new Four Horsemen. That would have made the DK campaign in Legion a hundred times more interesting.

Also it's not just "alliance v horde" storylines that insistence on making the alliance look like the virteous "good guys" all the time is ruining/preventing, mean there was a big opportunity to have stories about draenei or worgen having issues intergrating into the alliance yet for the most part no-one is having any issues with people who literally look like demons, or 7+ ft werewolves running about I'm not saying you should restrict the capability of draenei or worgen player but have things like them starting out as neutral to other alliance factions or that some quest having a different quest text.

[TheFeniX]

Yeah, I realize that the all specs can tank philosophy wouldn't work. I just brought up both tanking and DPS for all three specs as a way of illustrating what options were available.

Sorry. I didn't mean to insinuate that's what you meant. I was going off on another rant, cut myself off, and upon re-reading: it does come off that way. I rant a lot, so... bear with me.

To be honest, I don't think it would have been that bad an idea to have taken away DK's ability to dual wield entirely and had them just use two-handed weapons. I can't think of a single Death Knight in lore who dual wielded before WotLK came out, and dual wielding in-game was always a pretty niche play style for DKs in Wrath.

I think it fits Blood as kind of this "frenzy" tank/DPS role. But other than that, I agree. I never bothered with it until I had to in order to keep my raid spot.

Also it's not just "alliance v horde" storylines that insistence on making the alliance look like the virteous "good guys" all the time is ruining/preventing, mean there was a big opportunity to have stories about draenei or worgen having issues intergrating into the alliance yet for the most part no-one is having any issues with people who literally look like demons, or 7+ ft werewolves running about I'm not saying you should restrict the capability of draenei or worgen player but have things like them starting out as neutral to other alliance factions or that some quest having a different quest text.

Alliance don't merit enough storytelling for that. Their only arguments concern how to handle the Horde. I honestly can't think of the last discussion between Ally faction leads that didn't involve the Horde.

I mentioned this somewhere else on the forums. Can't remember where, but I find it funny and annoying me being a Death Knight has no bearing on my interactions with NPCs. This came to a head questing in Panda land. Talked to some random Panda quest-giver. The line was:

"Oh good, a <insert class here>." Which read as:
"Oh good, a Death Knight."

Seriously? That's not a phrase anyone should say. At the least, other beast races exist and Azeroth races have had multiple interactions with many of them. Humans deal with Dorfs, Gnomes, and Elves constantly. So Worgen are kind of "whatever." But Death Knights and Forsaken? Pretty much anyone living should never be 100% ok with them. I can't see any reasons why Azeroth races wouldn't have the same Human aversion to dead things. ESPECIALLY when they are talking and moving, but not exhibiting signs of life such as breathing. The idea of Zombies is a cheap trick to elicit fear in people for a reason.

Undead Hunters. To this day still makes me chuckle.

[Civil War Man]

Sorry. I didn't mean to insinuate that's what you meant. I was going off on another rant, cut myself off, and upon re-reading: it does come off that way. I rant a lot, so... bear with me.

No worries. Just clarifying what I meant.

Alliance don't merit enough storytelling for that. Their only arguments concern how to handle the Horde. I honestly can't think of the last discussion between Ally faction leads that didn't involve the Horde.

I'm now picturing a Warcraft version of the Bechdel Test.

"I never participate in a quest chain unless it has at least two Alliance characters who talk to each other about something other than the Horde."

I mentioned this somewhere else on the forums. Can't remember where, but I find it funny and annoying me being a Death Knight has no bearing on my interactions with NPCs. This came to a head questing in Panda land. Talked to some random Panda quest-giver. The line was:

"Oh good, a <insert class here>." Which read as:
"Oh good, a Death Knight."

I just pretend they're being sarcastic in that case. Kind of like when you take a Worgen through Grizzly Hills.

[Lord Revan]

Also it's not just "alliance v horde" storylines that insistence on making the alliance look like the virteous "good guys" all the time is ruining/preventing, mean there was a big opportunity to have stories about draenei or worgen having issues intergrating into the alliance yet for the most part no-one is having any issues with people who literally look like demons, or 7+ ft werewolves running about I'm not saying you should restrict the capability of draenei or worgen player but have things like them starting out as neutral to other alliance factions or that some quest having a different quest text.

Alliance don't merit enough storytelling for that. Their only arguments concern how to handle the Horde. I honestly can't think of the last discussion between Ally faction leads that didn't involve the Horde.

that's the effect though not the cause, the true cause being that Blizzard want to the players to see the Alliance as the unambigous "good guys" so you can't really have internal tension due to bigotry while maintaining that image. something I think SWTOR did better was that while the Republic as the good guys, it was more "a lighter shade of gray" then "pure white" with the Republic doing a lot of questionble actions even during the Republic storylines, it was just that Sith Empire was worse.

EDIT:the whole "humans are boring" thing

[TheFeniX]

I just pretend they're being sarcastic in that case. Kind of like when you take a Worgen through Grizzly Hills.

That was worth a good laugh. I have a screenshot from FFXIV where an NPC is saying to my PC: "Don't give me that look." I was wearing a version of this.

Alliance don't merit enough storytelling for that. Their only arguments concern how to handle the Horde. I honestly can't think of the last discussion between Ally faction leads that didn't involve the Horde.

that's the effect though not the cause, the true cause being that Blizzard want to the players to see the Alliance as the unambigous "good guys" so you can't really have internal tension due to bigotry while maintaining that image. something I think SWTOR did better was that while the Republic as the good guys, it was more "a lighter shade of gray" then "pure white" with the Republic doing a lot of questionble actions even during the Republic storylines, it was just that Sith Empire was worse.

EDIT:the whole "humans are boring" thing

I think that primarily held true early in WoW's life. But since Cata, they tried to add some grey to the Alliance and pretty up the Horde image.... and they failed miserably in both regards. For the Alliance, you generally find some shitty people, individuals. But with the Horde, you find the leadership continues to act like genocidal maniacs, but "Garrosh killed some guy for committing warcrimes, so he's an OK guy." But what about him not stopping Sylvannas from gassing... "THIS INTERVIEW IS OVER!"

I can't back it up because I can't find it, but one of their story writers had a blue post (back when they actually posted on the fucking forums) specifically stating they didn't write many Alliance stories because Humans/Alliance (can't recall which he used) were boring. Basically, calling out his own writers. They've dug their heels in now. Only Jaina will have anything come of her (well earned) prejudice. Greymane will likely just fall in line for Anduin's sake, even though it will make no sense for his character. Also of note: they probably have a lack of writers anyways, and most the original team is just gone now.

[Lord Revan]

Alliance don't merit enough storytelling for that. Their only arguments concern how to handle the Horde. I honestly can't think of the last discussion between Ally faction leads that didn't involve the Horde.

that's the effect though not the cause, the true cause being that Blizzard want to the players to see the Alliance as the unambigous "good guys" so you can't really have internal tension due to bigotry while maintaining that image. something I think SWTOR did better was that while the Republic as the good guys, it was more "a lighter shade of gray" then "pure white" with the Republic doing a lot of questionble actions even during the Republic storylines, it was just that Sith Empire was worse.

EDIT:the whole "humans are boring" thing

I think that primarily held true early in WoW's life. But since Cata, they tried to add some grey to the Alliance and pretty up the Horde image.... and they failed miserably in both regards. For the Alliance, you generally find some shitty people, individuals. But with the Horde, you find the leadership continues to act like genocidal maniacs, but "Garrosh killed some guy for committing warcrimes, so he's an OK guy." But what about him not stopping Sylvannas from gassing... "THIS INTERVIEW IS OVER!"

I can't back it up because I can't find it, but one of their story writers had a blue post (back when they actually posted on the fucking forums) specifically stating they didn't write many Alliance stories because Humans/Alliance (can't recall which he used) were boring. Basically, calling out his own writers. They've dug their heels in now. Only Jaina will have anything come of her (well earned) prejudice. Greymane will likely just fall in line for Anduin's sake, even though it will make no sense for his character. Also of note: they probably have a lack of writers anyways, and most the original team is just gone now.

the thing is that the Cata "darkening of the alliance" was half-assed badly because they didn't want to ruin the "good guy" image, that's why you find things like Camp T where the bad thing was done by renegades, same problem with the Horde really they didn't want to ruin the "cool side" imagine so you have to have the characters be "pro-active" the problem for anyone who is not 12 is that "pro-active" meant "unprovoked attacks".

[TheFeniX]

the thing is that the Cata "darkening of the alliance" was half-assed badly because they didn't want to ruin the "good guy" image, that's why you find things like Camp T where the bad thing was done by renegades, same problem with the Horde really they didn't want to ruin the "cool side" imagine so you have to have the characters be "pro-active" the problem for anyone who is not 12 is that "pro-active" meant "unprovoked attacks".

Might be a "chicken/egg" thing. Did Blizzard not want to darken up the Alliance or are set-piece stories of an asshole easier to write than dealing with some rot in the Alliance apple as a whole? To me, it comes off as laziness. Give the Alliance Horde centric or bear ass collecting quests and send them on their little way. That is just my opinion though.

Isn't Cata around the time a lot of the old-hat guys were moving on to other projects or just retiring? Either way, the biggest laugh for me was them redoing the Forsaken from evil little bastards waiting for their chance to destroy everyone to "nah bra, just misunderstood" with their opening narration and a few quests. Meanwhile, Alliance Worgen got to see first hand Sylvannas' new "not bad guy" image.

Either way, Blizzard likes to brow beat it's playerbase on the forums and other media. I recall a few threads over the years where Blizzard had to defend the Alliance constantly getting spanked. They fought against the notion that the Alliance were the good guys by bringing up Durnholde and it's commander..... and the fact the Varian was kind of a dick to the Stonemasons and was prejudiced against Orcs (for good goddamn reason). But what was also brought up a few times was writing for the "good guys" was boring.

One blue poster actually tried to portray Varian's attitude at the Argent Tourny as "warmongering." Grah, I wish I could find this stuff again. A lot of it came up in response to Chopper-gate.

Honestly, I just think the WoW team has no fucks to give. They want to write Horde stories, that's what they do. When asked to defend it, it's "whatever, we know better than you do." Like when people were calling out Thrall's bullshit "this wasn't my fault" with Garrosh. Hell fucking yea you share the blame dipshit. But.. was it Metzen, I honestly don't remember: "Nah doods, nah. You don't get it. Ignore the evidence and listen: Thrall was blamless in this."

Blizzard is that parent that tells you drugs are bad while pounding Everclear and blowing cigarette smoke in your face.

[TheFeniX]

Double post time because this hit a point where it's really annoying me.

I go back to sunsong ranch to grow Motes and Windwool plants to keep making Royal Satchels. For anyone who doesn't know, since the new sharding bullshit came into effect (no idea if it's related): the master plow doesn't plow. Other than that, sometimes the weeds that grow won't pull. You jump on them, the "driving" interface comes up, but the button doesn't do anything. It just makes the "click" noise that interface does when an action isn't available. So, I have to manually till all the slots, then jump on and off the weed until I can finally pull it.

I let it go up until yesterday, when now my 98 Druid (who's resto) is fighting level 100 planshanks and whatever those vermin are called. Dealing with the other stuff is annoying, but trying to kill level 100 mobs as Resto is "please kill me know" levels of "kiss my ass Blizzard."

Jaina still only sane person on Azeroth.

[Lord Revan]

I'm wondering if the fact that Blizzard already has plans for the patch 7.1 is good thing or a bad thing, as it could mean either that they're front loading the expansion in an effort to make it seem like there's support for it after launch or that there's an actual plan and we are gonna get more late game content then WoD since lets face if you weren't raiding 24/7 WoD had more or less 0 meaningful content for you.

and TheFeniX you can swap specs for free now there's really no true need atm to level as healer, it's only one the artifacts come that you need to stick to 1 spec for the most part and even then it's not ironclad, I swapped to Vengence to deal with a tough mob in the Beta even if my DH is typically Havoc.

[TheFeniX]

and TheFeniX you can swap specs for free now there's really no true need atm to level as healer, it's only one the artifacts come that you need to stick to 1 spec for the most part and even then it's not ironclad, I swapped to Vengence to deal with a tough mob in the Beta even if my DH is typically Havoc.

I had no AGL gear at the time (was still in MoP gear) and Boomkin would have been unlikely to speed things up. But with all my new welfare gear, I can maul down the trash mobs in seconds. It just pisses me off because the farm is still broken, yet someone set a scaling variable for the mobs? Assholes.

The 1-2 times things were fairly even and/or most the Horde didn't bother ganking, I had loads of fun. Like fighting a Hunter and Unholy DK on my Prot Warrior and railing the shit out of them over and over thanks to my welfare gear. DAMN, Prot and Fury are fun as balls now.

Going back to this: I decided to run my Horde Prot Pally through some invasions. I was drunk and figured: "OLD SCHOOL! Let's take the Ratchet boat over to STV and explore my way to Westfall." At the pass between North and South STV, I got sapped.

"Oh great, in about 8 seconds a ?? rogue is going to hit my 37 Pally for eleventy billion damage." So, the rogue opens up with Cheap Shot. Had to have been talented on to not break steal for 3 seconds. When he comes into view, he's 39: "Aw man, a FIGHT!" He goes through the basic Kidney shot finisher and I've lost a bit of health. Shadow "whatever" (their new DoT finisher) gets applied and I'm now in the fight. So, I just do my basic tanking rotation. trying to keep him in Consecration and he finds out halfway through fighting a fully heirloom geared Protadin isn't going to be easy. So, he tries to create some distance, and I start spamming Flash of Light and a cleanse to remove his DoTs. He uses vanish, so I just figure he's going to bail. Instead he kicks my heal, then creates more distance and starts throwing shurikens at me.

So I throw my Avenger's Shield at him, it crits, and he loses the last 20% of his HP and dies. Shame Cheat Death is so far up the level list now, at least I assume it is. Either way, WPvP can be fun, it's just usually not. But you can hang around for those fun moments.

This is funny, at least to me, because it reminds me of a fight YEARS back on my rogue. I was just sitting in the middle of the road, I think in the Wetlands, checking my map. A belf prot pally opened up on me (two levels below me) with Hammer of the Righteous. He beat on me and I had a panic "VANISH" moment, wasting a huge cooldown. I then decided "what the Hell" and just went for it. Wasn't much of a fight unfortunately back then as Prot wasn't in the position it was at that level that it is now. He didn't have half his health once I got through my basic opener. Don't get me wrong, he took a while to go down, but he went down.

[Grumman]

I've only played two healing specs, plus some off-healing as Ret Paladin in dungeons. Discipline Priest is good both solo and with a team. She's less good at supporting an entire team now that her shield has a cooldown on it and she lost the Holy Nova, but she's still got a shield, a nuke (Penance) and an attack that both does and prevents damage (Smite). At level 20 she can kill a level 36 mob solo, but only just.

On the other hand Mistweaver Monk sucks, even in dungeons. She's lost Fistweaving and Soothing Mist is now a triggered channel instead of an instant-start channel with instant-cast burst healing. She has no ability to respond to changes except her talent, and that doesn't proc Soothing Mist; if she needs to move, switch targets or use a more bursty healing spell, that means that nobody's getting healed for the next two seconds.

[TheFeniX]

There's some interesting mechanics going on with the scaling for invasions. I assume this code is also prevalent in the "stat crunch" variables with scaling old content. So, mobs in invasions scale with your level, but the health does as well. So the mob with 1 million health for a level 100 will have around 10K or whatever for a level 40. For someone even lower than that, they may have 1K.

For anyone who's played the game with a lower level character: tanks in heirlooms do stupid damage. In fact, they will consistently out DPS everyone else, many times all 3 DPS. What this means is that threat gen on a lower level tank in these invasions is insane. A single judgement will grant me at least 32%. An Avenger's Shield is nearly always an instant aggro magnet. It makes it interesting with high level healers who actually bother to heal you since, a single tick is 1000% of your HP. Only one-shot mechanics have a chance of downing you.

I'm only a novice coder, but it is interesting to wonder about the type of variables that must be involved in this process. I can only assume that HP values have become completely abstract, which makes a lot of sense looking at the new tooltips. Everything must be based on percentages now. If this is working like I think it is, it would be a perfect time to integrate a scaling PvP system. But they'd never do it.

One actually GOOD reason to not do it is that certain level cut-offs with heirlooms would be neigh immortal. Lower level tanks would dominate World PvP because the par rating is insane at lower levels.

[RogueIce]

Honestly, I just think the WoW team has no fucks to give. They want to write Horde stories, that's what they do.

Anyone who doubts this should go watch the movie. Even the people who loved it (outside the die hard "no flaws" crowd) commonly admit that all the good story and characters were on the Horde side, with Humans getting the short shrift. Fuck even the detractors acknowledge that the Horde was at least somewhat interesting while Humans were just there.

Metzen just plain loves the Horde, and that spreads throughout Blizzard's writing staff. Anyone who doesn't get that isn't paying attention.

[TheFeniX]

I personally don't care about the Horde, or the Alliance for that matter. There's seems to be this metric with Blizzard: have Horde take from Alliance, have Alliance take from Horde. That's just poor writing and explanation. I've heard it said that WoD was making up for all the Horde centric stuff because Alliance got to kill old Horde heroes... this is, what? Even if that were true, it's not like it's Alliance only content. Even going back to MoP: We weren't the only ones farming Heirlooms off Garrosh.

It also ignores that if everyone is having the kill your leaders, maybe your Horde has issues with playing nice. As an Alliance player, I actually don't want anything to do with the Horde anymore. That ship sailed a long time ago. There's all these cool threats to down and I'm just fucking tired of having to deal with Horde bullshit no matter what else I'm dealing with. And they can try and convince me Thrall isn't Horde all they want: I don't care. He's still another fucking Orc I have to look at.

Now I expect another expansion with Gul'Dan taking the place of Arthas in WotLK: constantly there, watching and waiting. Mocking us (and his allies). Except the Lich King was cool. Gul'Dan is just annoying. And I'm sure I'll be dealing with even more Horde assholes. Can you believe the Horde playerbase was pissed when the two Alliance Scenerios were in their queue pool in MoP? They have no fucking idea. Both of those also involved the Horde.

Sidenote: bring back scenarios you hacks.

Anyway, after ending up in the Caverns of Time, I had to run a heroic in a fruitless endeavor to get a drop that has eluded me forever. There's no way I only have 6 Mal'Ganis kills. I know I ran that dungeon dozens of times on my pally. Either way, back at level: the drop almost never came. The two times it did, it got fucking ninjaed because, even though it's a tank drop, anyone back then who could use a drop could need on it.

Two runs since coming back Royal Crest of Lordaeron. That was a good feeling. I had the same thing happen to me for the shield out of HoR (BiS pre-raid shield up until they released the new honor gear). That one got ninjaed 3 times, but it's ugly, so I don't care to try and farm it. I've got to rework my mog more. I've really just ended up running everything on my pally. If it's plate, I take it.

Going to replace Linken's sword with the Honor Hold blade once I finally get to exalted. Something I started out on years ago and never finished. Might be able to do it tonight with another full clear of all the HFC heroic dungeons.

We are doing the next leg of the Legion tie-in tonight. Other than that, I'm finally on the cinders part of the Legendary Staff quest on my Mage. Only like.... another month. Whatever, there's still two mounts out of there.

[Grumman]

I can't actually use it at this stage, but I succeeded in getting the Hydrocane and its transmog with a solo level 20 character. There are only two elite and a handful of non-elite Troggs on the entrance level, so I was able to kill them off, grab a parachute, jump off, open the parachute and restealth before I hit the ground. Then it was just a matter of waiting for the Viscous Fallout to wander over so I could nuke it with a Blight Sample and loot the corpse.

The same character has visited Cenarion Hold in Silithus and watched as Ashbringer was named in the Caverns of Time. It's been interesting seeing how far I can push the limits of a level 20 F2P character, and what the biggest obstacles are.