SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

Post by Sea Skimmer »

There has been an explosion on the launch pad at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida, where the aerospace company SpaceX was readying an unmanned rocket for launch.

The cause of the blast is not clear and it is not known if anyone was hurt.

Nasa said SpaceX was test-firing a rocket which was due to take a satellite into space this weekend.

Pictures from the scene show a huge plume of smoke rising above the complex.

The force of the blast shook buildings several miles away.

SpaceX has used its Falcon-9 rocket to take supplies to the International Space Station (ISS).
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37247077
The facebook satellite rocket has committed suicide, no doubt in horror of what it was carrying. Since it's reported as a test firing on the engines it's unlikely anyone was near enough to be hurt.

No videos yet, but pictures.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

Post by AMX »

SpaceX twitter says there were no injuries, but the payload was destroyed.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

Post by TimothyC »

Explosion took place before engine ignition, and early comments point to a ground equipment issue, not one with the rocket,
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

Post by Khaat »

So that's a fueling error?
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

Post by SpottedKitty »

A fuelling glitch is always a possibility; kerosene/LOX handling is pretty well understood by now, but it can still bite you in the anatomy if you're not careful.

One thing that did concern me (more than the loss of vehicle) was whether this was the first of the refurbished boosters. It wasn't; the first one is... or now, I suppose, was due to launch next month. It's these re-flights that are going to be important for SpaceX's reputation.

Here's hoping there isn't too much damage to the pad facilities; I remember when the Antares launch failure a couple of years ago was discussed here, the pics showed some pad damage (and a large divot just to one side of the pad where the rocket came down).
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Yeah sure can't bite you in the ass. On the plus side though that sort of fuel will almost never detonate when it does so. A pad explosion is a deflagration at most, very impressive looking and hot but not that violent. In contrast to some other propellents which easily detonate, and all the poor propellent that never got out of the lab because they almost always detonate.

Structurally those towers are pretty damn robust now, but the mechanical and electrical systems can still be damaged to the point of needing total replacement. Probably not going to be a huge problem fixing that since SpaceX uses the most austere pad they can. And also were apparently testing an accelerated checkout regime for this launch...I'd call that a fail on that idea.

Link below has multiple videos. Clearly see the origin of the explosion in the upper stage.
http://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/ ... /89710076/
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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Well, I wasn't expecting that — the explosion started in the upper stage. Must have blown the upper stage structure clean out, you can clearly see the intact payload and fairing toppling after a few seconds.

And there's a Twitter post from Musk, it seems to have involved the upper stage oxygen tank. I wonder if they were still actively fuelling at the time; that might make the difference between a plumbing failure or a tank failure.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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SpottedKitty wrote:Well, I wasn't expecting that — the explosion started in the upper stage. Must have blown the upper stage structure clean out, you can clearly see the intact payload and fairing toppling after a few seconds.

And there's a Twitter post from Musk, it seems to have involved the upper stage oxygen tank. I wonder if they were still actively fuelling at the time; that might make the difference between a plumbing failure or a tank failure.
Liquid oxygen can turn flammable things into explosive things, so it would make sense that a LOX leak could cause one hell of a fire. If it reacts with oxygen, LOX will make it react faster and more energetically because there's so much more oxygen present. Considering how many things will react with oxygen...

I could see a leak either resulting in LOX getting on some of the flammable stuff inside the upper stage, or evaporating and creating a high oxygen environment. Then you're one spark away from one hell of a fire in an enclosed space.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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I'm just wondering where all the people who were shitting on NK for their failed rocket launches are right now.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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It takes a LOT of energy to get into space. The trick is to have the energy released in a controlled manner and not escape all at once.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

General Zod wrote:I'm just wondering where all the people who were shitting on NK for their failed rocket launches are right now.
I was just thinking on how damn many Falcon 9 failures there seem to have been, even ignoring the lower stages that have crashed on landing. A crash trying to land a rocket isn't exactly unexpected...

But I also don't know just how many successful Falcon 9 launches there have been. It may just seem like they've had an inordinate number fail.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

Post by General Zod »

Napoleon the Clown wrote:
General Zod wrote:I'm just wondering where all the people who were shitting on NK for their failed rocket launches are right now.
I was just thinking on how damn many Falcon 9 failures there seem to have been, even ignoring the lower stages that have crashed on landing. A crash trying to land a rocket isn't exactly unexpected...

But I also don't know just how many successful Falcon 9 launches there have been. It may just seem like they've had an inordinate number fail.
Wiki seems to have a pretty comprehensive list.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

Post by Jub »

90% isn't bad for a company that's pushing the envelope as hard as Space-X is.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

General Zod wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote:
General Zod wrote:I'm just wondering where all the people who were shitting on NK for their failed rocket launches are right now.
I was just thinking on how damn many Falcon 9 failures there seem to have been, even ignoring the lower stages that have crashed on landing. A crash trying to land a rocket isn't exactly unexpected...

But I also don't know just how many successful Falcon 9 launches there have been. It may just seem like they've had an inordinate number fail.
Wiki seems to have a pretty comprehensive list.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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The real problem is that with a 90% reliability rate, you can't plan on Falcon launches actually working. You certainly can't put a human being on the rocket. Nor can you put a cargo on the rocket that is mission-critical for a manned mission, unless you have a duplicate cargo standing by to launch on another Falcon 9 in case the first one explodes.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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Tom Mueller, SpaceX propulsion chief, Air and Space magazine article, January 2012 wrote:"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Aaron Cohen, NASA administrator. wrote:Let's face it, space is a risky business. I always considered every launch a barely controlled explosion.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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Zixinus wrote:
Tom Mueller, SpaceX propulsion chief, Air and Space magazine article, January 2012 wrote:"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Aaron Cohen, NASA administrator. wrote:Let's face it, space is a risky business. I always considered every launch a barely controlled explosion.
Very true.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well, yes.

And yet, there's still a difference between what you can do with a 90% reliable rocket and a 99% reliable one.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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Thing to remember also is NASA's own work indicates that you need to aim for, design for, condition for and then test for at least a 1:100,000 failure rate if you want to even think about getting a 1:100 failure rate in actual service conditions.

Aiming for 90% and you can ignore large aspects of testing and conditioning completely...and SpaceX is desperate to cut down manhours per launch, and since they already work all their engineers to death as much as possible the only way to go further is cut out human involvement completely where ever possible. Which is really not justified by anything SpaceX itself has done, but if they are willing to keep exploding rockets they may find a method that works. But every explosion they get makes their own proven odds worse for the moment, and its proven that counts if they want to move into more serious prospects.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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But I heard Musk is a genius capitalist who will make private space launches viable and let us colonize space in a capitalisto libertarianisto future that Heinlein has foreseen.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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Simon_Jester wrote:The real problem is that with a 90% reliability rate, you can't plan on Falcon launches actually working. You certainly can't put a human being on the rocket. Nor can you put a cargo on the rocket that is mission-critical for a manned mission, unless you have a duplicate cargo standing by to launch on another Falcon 9 in case the first one explodes.
That is what launch escape systems are for. SpaceX has one for their potential Dragonn manned capsule, and it would have certainly saved the crew if this were a failure on a manned mission. Assuming it is more reliable than the second stages, which I certainly hope it is.

What is interesting here is that SpaceX seems to be mostly having a problem with their second stages. For all the talk about their reusable first stage, they seem to be skimping on the second stage to keep prices down.
Sea Skimmer wrote:Thing to remember also is NASA's own work indicates that you need to aim for, design for, condition for and then test for at least a 1:100,000 failure rate if you want to even think about getting a 1:100 failure rate in actual service conditions.
One interesting bit I recall from Richard Feynman's account of his service on the Rogers commission that investigated the Challenger disaster was that the managers tended to use the testing rate and the engineers tended to use the service rate when he interviewed both. Which is why managers sat before Congress and claimed the former failure rate, even though engineers recognized the difference.

The underlying problem when the space shuttle was built was that NASA could only fund it by outright lying to Congress so that it would be initially funded, then use the sunk cost in order to fund the rebuild cycles.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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Adam Reynolds wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:The real problem is that with a 90% reliability rate, you can't plan on Falcon launches actually working. You certainly can't put a human being on the rocket. Nor can you put a cargo on the rocket that is mission-critical for a manned mission, unless you have a duplicate cargo standing by to launch on another Falcon 9 in case the first one explodes.
That is what launch escape systems are for. SpaceX has one for their potential Dragonn manned capsule, and it would have certainly saved the crew if this were a failure on a manned mission. Assuming it is more reliable than the second stages, which I certainly hope it is.
On one level it doesn't matter. If you have to use a launch escape mechanism you've already lost in a lot of ways. If you're sending up a mission-critical unmanned payload, that payload will almost certainly NOT be serviceable and ready to be reused on another rocket any time soon, and you'll miss your launch window if you're dealing with any kind of interplanetary or timed operation. At best it's a "try again next year" situation, at worst it's a "we don't have the budget to launch your space probe to Jupiter again, so much for that idea" situation. You can't just shrug, say "oh well," and climb in another rocket for another try; this isn't Kerbal Space Program.

Moreover, that is precisely the question. Space-X is having a 10% or so failure rate in their actual rockets, which are tested frequently, and which is so critical to their success because nothing good can possibly happen for them if the rocket fails. What are the odds that a piece of equipment like the escape tower is MORE reliable, when it rarely or never actually gets used for anything during a mission?

If you're the kind of person who skimps on safety checks for the thing that can make the whole satellite launch fail and explode (the second stage of the rocket), you're also going to skimp on checking the reliability of things that might not get used at all.

Bluntly, Falcon 9 is not a man-rated rocket, and at this rate it never will be. You could probably find astronauts mad enough to fly it, but that doesn't make it a good choice for space exploration.
Sea Skimmer wrote:Thing to remember also is NASA's own work indicates that you need to aim for, design for, condition for and then test for at least a 1:100,000 failure rate if you want to even think about getting a 1:100 failure rate in actual service conditions.
One interesting bit I recall from Richard Feynman's account of his service on the Rogers commission that investigated the Challenger disaster was that the managers tended to use the testing rate and the engineers tended to use the service rate when he interviewed both. Which is why managers sat before Congress and claimed the former failure rate, even though engineers recognized the difference.

The underlying problem when the space shuttle was built was that NASA could only fund it by outright lying to Congress so that it would be initially funded, then use the sunk cost in order to fund the rebuild cycles.
The underlying problem is that Congress went "okay, we put a man on the moon, time to stop thinking about space exploration ever," and the funding dried up almost instantly. NASA has spent literally the entire time since struggling to get enough funding to accomplish anything other than its quite impressive unmanned exploration program, while everyone gets more and more disappointed in them about "why haven't we done anything awesome like the moon landings in fifty years?" :roll:
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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Serious discussion of important things aside...
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 kersplodes on pad

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Simon_Jester wrote:Moreover, that is precisely the question. Space-X is having a 10% or so failure rate in their actual rockets, which are tested frequently, and which is so critical to their success because nothing good can possibly happen for them if the rocket fails. What are the odds that a piece of equipment like the escape tower is MORE reliable, when it rarely or never actually gets used for anything during a mission?
For starters your math is wrong if you're counting specifically the Falcon 9 launches. (While we could discuss this, it makes sense that earlier efforts had more problems and is fairly typical for a rocket program from a country or company without previous experience until they can figure of the initial kinks.) At least in terms of true failures which would put a manned mission in possible jeopardy, you're looking at two so far out of 29 Falcon launches including the launch pad failure.

Its also worth pointing out that the specific static testing procedure in question in this case would never be performed with the astronauts on board, so the emergency escape component would never come into play in this case. Now its true that the nature of it is still a concern because based on what we know so far it could still potentially come into play with the actual launch, but at a minimum in terms of the number of times the procedure was done without this sort of failure you should at least double the 29 times figure when calculating the actual failure risk rate to astronauts actually in the rocket at the time. (Moving the potential effective failure rate with astronauts on board to somewhere close to 5.2% when including the other failure.)

In terms of the escape capsule mechanism itself (which is still the Dragon module and not some separate escape tower), its allot more simple than the entire rocket, and key parts have to work during a regular manned mechanism rather than only coming into play in an emergency abort scenario. I certainly view a success rate of 90% as being pretty conservative by the time it goes through the rest of its testing. Its worth noting it has gone through one test so far with basically flying colors on its first try.

While the other failure is related to the figure of 28 other times in terms of issues so far, its worth noting the failure mechanism for the rocket was not of the true explosion variety. This suggests that even if the rocket component of the abort somehow utterly failed, its still pretty likely the hypothetical astronauts inside would survive basically unhurt if its parachute component had worked. (The evidence is the Dragon capsule component was still intact even after the rocket had disintegrated.)

Basically when you do the math including the escape backup component, the evidence so far supports that as long as the rest of the manned capsule testing goes smoothly, the Space X manned launches will in fact be significantly safer than the Space Shuttle launches were. If you consider the specific nature of the failures so far you could argue that it in fact would be dramatically safer. Now all of this does not mean that the failures are not a concern in terms on manned flight or an obvious problem, but you should consider the historical risks when talking about when it would be acceptable to move a rocket towards manned use.

(There is also plenty of reason that especially with regards to manned flights where Space X can take extra precautions if necessary that it will continue to get safer as problems get identified and significantly Space X can look at all the 1st stage boosters they successfully land after the flight for any warning signs even if they didn't impact the success of that particular launch.)
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