Manifesto opinion

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 09:06pm

http://www.geocities.com/psygnisfive/NFM.htm

I'd like to know your opinions on the ideas put forth in the manifest. Thank you.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-03-26 09:30pm

Dude, you are a fascist?

*CALLS UP MEMBERS OF THE ANTI-PETA ANTI-FASCIST LEAGUE TO TAKE CARE OF THE 'DEVIANT'*

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-03-26 09:31pm

I got as far as the outright LIE, that the goal of democracy is to use voting, and majority rule, to opress the minority. Having conveniently left out the idea of minority rights, PURE democracy would be nothing more than mob rule.
The problem being, most REAL functioning democracies have a system of civil rights, that can't be revoked by anything less than 3/4 of the population, voting to amend the list of civil rights.
Any society that 3/4 of the people vote to revoke civil rights gets just what they deserve.
Pogroms, civilwar, or ethnic cleansing.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-03-26 09:38pm

Emperor Chrostas the Crue wrote:I got as far as the outright LIE, that the goal of democracy is to use voting, and majority rule, to opress the minority. Having conveniently left out the idea of minority rights, PURE democracy would be nothing more than mob rule.
The problem being, most REAL functioning democracies have a system of civil rights, that can't be revoked by anything less than 3/4 of the population, voting to amend the list of civil rights.
Any society that 3/4 of the people vote to revoke civil rights gets just what they deserve.
Pogroms, civilwar, or ethnic cleansing.

Same here...

When I got to the part about democracy, I just said 'what a load of bullsh*t' and hit the big 'x' in the upper right corner.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 09:39pm

So youre saying that a nation in which 3/4 of the people vote for killing the other 1/4 is a good and just nation?

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-03-26 09:43pm

kojikun wrote:So youre saying that a nation in which 3/4 of the people vote for killing the other 1/4 is a good and just nation?

Only if the other 1/4 is filled with commies,nazis,PETA assholes and kkk members

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 09:46pm

exactly. Nazi Germany was democratic and supported the holocaust, but that doesnt make it right to kill that many people.

NOTHING can justify removing a persons rights, and no democracy can ensure human rights without preventing some democractic process.

However, if you read, the democracy part applies mainly to the processes of government not the positioning of people in government. The Curia is a fully democratic body whos existance is to ensure the autocrat never gets too big for his britches.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-26 09:47pm

Sounds a lot like some of that jizz-soaked apologism that Communists write for 20th-century communism.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 09:48pm

Communists are idiots. I stress in almost every sentence the necessesity of freedom.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-26 09:52pm

You can't have great indivividual liberty and omnipresent government at the same time. Unless you're inside the head of a Trekkie.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 09:56pm

where do i say omnipresent government? nowhere. the section on government supports a autocratic executive and legislative branch which is monitored by an elected Curia. Everything else is like a standard democratic government.

I also forgot the little piece that mentions military action against the curia is forbidden (thus preventing the autocrat from taking full control)

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 09:59pm

ok, i stuck that bit in.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-03-26 09:59pm

No, I am saying that once 3/4 of the population are shitheads, and dumb enough to vote ANY civil right away, (history shows that rights can only be legislated AWAY, and civil unrest is needed to REAQUIRE them) that society is headed for hell, of their own making.
And yes, the majority of citzens of Nazi Germany WERE bad people, and deseved EVERYTHING bad that the brought apon themselves.
Up to, and including being taken over, by force of arms.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 10:01pm

Ah. Exactly, Emp, but its the purpose of the government to prevent that majority from oppressing the minority.

You cannot deny that all modern democracies are founded on the HOPE of achieving freedom, but are instead used to achieve oppression when the majority wills it so.

How can a democracy be for freedom if the majority can ensure lack thereof?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-26 10:01pm

Heavily nationalized industries, military expansionism, economic security and military defense guaranteed to our new subjects? Maybe not an omnipresent government, but huge and very much active. It just doesn't really appear to me that this government is going to ultimately be interested in the liberty of it's citizens.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-03-26 10:03pm

Has there ever been a case in history where Fascism has actually worked or been good for the citizens?

No.

You know what they say, if you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-03-26 10:04pm

kojikun wrote:where do i say omnipresent government? nowhere. the section on government supports a autocratic executive and legislative branch which is monitored by an elected Curia. Everything else is like a standard democratic government.

I also forgot the little piece that mentions military action against the curia is forbidden (thus preventing the autocrat from taking full control)

And WHY do you think that will work? An autocrat has full power over EVERYTHING, and he can say 'screw the laws, I am taking over' if he wants, wouldn't be that hard.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 10:05pm

Heavily nationalized industries,

No, only some, not total. The military would run its own industry, not take over civilian industry. War shipbuilding is, already, pretty much nationalised, and theres no reason for it not to be other then to get rid of civilian targets and protect lives.

military expansionism, economic security and military defense guaranteed to our new subjects?

Who besides peaceniks doesnt like expansionism?

and everyone likes economic security and military defense.

Maybe not an omnipresent government, but huge and very much active.

As state in the manifesto, the governments purpose is to guarantee freedoms, not make a busines of ruling.

It just doesn't really appear to me that this government is going to ultimately be interested in the liberty of it's citizens.

Curia.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-03-26 10:06pm

while fascism is an intriguing concept, with, in the control of a strong willed man maintaining control, it doesnt have a lasting power. fascism's strength is that its' based around one man, without any dissent, so that a nation can be applied to a problem; but its flaw is that it relies on one man, solely - if that man is incompetent (mussolini) or insane (hitler) then it just wrecks havoc. . . and with a system based on one man, the effectiveness of the government slows, and when that man flaws, the system has trouble surviving. thus, why it is not good for empire maintainment.

democracy, while slow at times, allows a continued system of government, with all the trappings of a nation, even when under an incompetent leader. many have stated bush is a fool, but the american system continues on without him.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 10:08pm

And WHY do you think that will work? An autocrat has full power over EVERYTHING, and he can say 'screw the laws, I am taking over' if he wants, wouldn't be that hard.

No, actually the Curia is constantly ensuring he doesn't get too powerful. The autocrat would be like the president of the US and the Curia would be like Congress, only you would be preventing things from happening rather then voting for them to happen.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 10:09pm

Talen, thats why I said i the very first paragraphs that fascism as devotion to the state has gone too far and become devotion to a man not to the state or the ideals and principles of the state.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-03-26 10:11pm

OK, I don't get this, you say that the so called 'Curia' would prevent things from happening instead of voting things in.

huh?

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-03-26 10:12pm

As I said earlier, learn from history, or you are doomed to repeat it.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 10:12pm

It would be like Congress in reverse. Their job is to veto not to pass laws and actions.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-26 10:14pm

oh, and lets not forget that corrupt politicians and incompetent fools are not permitted to be drawn into the office of dictator, only those qualified (meaning those who grasp upholding the constitution) can be made dictator.