Is globalization dead or dying?

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His Divine Shadow
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Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Based on this article global trade has stagnated and we might even see it reverse and a return to more locally based economies:
https://www.socialeurope.eu/2016/08/hal ... cantilism/
The process of globalization is in retreat. The latest victim of the global economic slowdown is international trade: after tumultuous growth in the last 26 years, disrupted only temporarily by the financial crisis of 2008-2009, the estimated volume of goods and services traded globally has been stalled for more than 18 months around $13 trillion. So long a period of stasis has never been experienced by the world economy before. Of course, there have been some slowdowns in the expansion of trade due to recessions or severe regional crises, but acceleration in key areas has more than offset the decline recorded elsewhere.

For example, after the international collapse in trade of 2009, growth rates in developed countries halved, but the volumes globally traded continued to expand, sustained by the boom in emerging economies. The observable data (taken from CBP Netherlands Bureau for Economic policy analysis database, probably the most accurate data repository publicly available) clearly highlights how emerging economies have suffered more from the collapse in trade post-Lehman Brothers, and how the same countries have quickly recovered lost ground, increasing their weight in the global market.

Among the emerging economies, China and India in particular have taken the lion’s share, while the continuing Eurozone crisis has reduced the influence of the old continent in the global market. According to empirical evidence, China, Taiwan and India have multiplied by a factor of four their trading volumes from a total of $1 trillion in 2000 to over $3.5 trillion in 2012; the first overtaking by the emerging Asian economies at the expense of the US took place in 2002, while in 2012 the same economies surpassed the Eurozone as the leading area in international trade. Conversely, the stagnation of the Euro area from 2011 has been spectacular, mainly due to the collapse of imports in European peripheral countries; the peak level of $3.7 trillion in trading volumes was reached in 2007 and never fully recovered.

The specific reasons for this prolonged stalemate are complex and not fully understood: undoubtedly, the collapse in oil and commodities prices has played a key role. Independent studies from the Centre for Economic Policy Research even show that the decline in the three main oil products (gasoline, diesel and kerosene) accounted for more than half of the drop in global trade volumes between October 2014 and June 2015. A certain weight can be attributed to the appreciation of the dollar, whose value increased by about 15% in 20 months. Indeed, a stronger dollar on the foreign exchange market implies that all transactions taking place in currencies other than the USD are accounted for with a lower value in dollar terms.

However, these factors are not sufficient to explain the persistent stasis in global trade during 2016, when the price of raw materials has stopped its descent, recovering some of its previous value and the dollar’s appreciation has gone into reverse, owing to the radical change of FED monetary policy, while the post-Brexit market turmoil has not impacted so much.

Recent research from World Trade Organization (WTO), World Economic Forum and independent advisors has highlighted the growing impact of protectionist policies and of national interests on international trade. The de-globalization meme is no longer just a “political” concept; with the halt in trade growth it becomes a fact, confirmed by official data of the world’s supranational organizations. Of over 1000 economic policy measures monitored by the WTO during 2014-2015, only 30% were aimed at further liberalization and de-regulation of trade, while 70% of those enacted could be interpreted as regulatory restrictions on free trade. In the first four months of 2016, more than 150 protectionist measures have been launched, compared to 50 in 2010; a surprisingly high proportion (81%) is attributable to the governments of the G20, which contribute more than 2/3 of global trade.

Among the most commonly restrictive measures implemented by the governments of developed countries: government bailouts of domestic industry (emblematic here is still the US auto industry bailout by the Bush administration in 2008) along with financial assistance programs and subsidized credit. G20 countries have made little use of classical instruments such as subsidies or import tariffs, but it is increasingly widespread to see requests to foreign investors to transfer their manufacturing process locally. In other words, in recent years foreign direct investments that impact on the local economy are prevailing rather than more traditional trading agreements. For corporations, this is a return to the past, as they have to deal with more fragmented and regionalized markets.

However, even this new course in the implementation of trade policies by the major industrialized nations could still be considered more as an effect than a cause of the halt in growth of international trade. In a context where the cake to be shared (the volumes of traded goods and services) is no longer growing, a new awareness is spreading among the big world economy players: a greater market share for ones own exports can only be achieved by reducing other countries’ quota. Currency wars and competitive devaluations should be natural consequences in this scenario of neo- mercantilism: indeed we are currently witness to the four major world economic powers – US, China, Japan and the Eurozone – being involved in rounds of strong monetary expansion with the explicit purpose of weakening their currencies and of igniting export-driven recoveries that may be short-lived.

In other words, the global economic system is adapting to a situation of persistently weak growth, where the profitability of investments is low (along with interest rates and inflation) while the incentives to globalization and labor offshoring are gradually reducing.

The analysis of the overall phenomenon thus leads us to the key question: why is the global economy slowing down so dramatically? A complex explanation – however partial – leads one to the impact of demographic factors (the falling growth rates of the world’s population, rapid aging in developed countries) and of the real cost of energy (the best resources have already been exploited, leaving those of the poorest quality and most difficult to extract). Either way, the future economy appears more and more “local”. Accordingly, the Eurozone’s fragile recovery should become less and less dependent on export growth and more focused on the revival of domestic demand; not by chance in countries like Italy the net contribution of exports to GDP growth is already negative while the government is busily studying various options of “fiscal stimuli” to the real economy.
I dunno if 18 months is enough to go by but it looks hopeful. I hope we can start reversing globalization. People seems to have had enough of that shit by now. Trump, the republican candiate shits all over it, which is saying something considering how much they like to huff globalist neoliberal cock, turns out that tune isn't working anymore, the working class aren't seeing anything but shit trickling down.

The poor of britain also had enough with free trade stealing all the jerbs and are leaving the EU, giving it ood solid kick in the nuts that will hopefully force it to reconsider its goal of free trade and movement of capital uber alles nomatter the costs. Loads of populist parties all over europe are growing because of globalization leaving poor people in it's wake with no future. Perhaps after all, it'll be globalization that gets the short end of the stick.

Maybe it's a pie in the sky article but one must have hope for a better future.

These kinds of articles below I have noticed are becoming ever more prevalent and gaining traction, and politics are changing their tune slowly, they will either go populist fascism or like Corbyn in the UK try and revert to proper leftist policies. Let's hope the latter wins, but either way the current system that just keeps on licking the ass of rich people is gonna have to go, by any means required.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/ ... ge-monbiot
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Re: Is globalization dead and dying?

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Topic should be or, not and
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by K. A. Pital »

Fixed for you.

Yes, the crisis of an unequal system designed to benefit primarily the rich has finally produced a political backlash against globalization which is strong enough to alter policy in the future, but this does not explain just why global trade is slowing down even now, when the globalist neoliberal elites are still at the helm and pushing their well-known policies down the subjects' throat with wild abandon.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

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It's got some current backlash, but I view that as temporary. There's too much mutual benefit to trade (and not just for the elites- NAFTA is a major factor in the rise of the Mexican middle class and helped US farmers, for example), and most of the backlash strikes me as just a current zeitgeist rather than any fundamental change. I feel there's currently a blown-up perception of the negative, but the positive- for everyone- is there.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by Iroscato »

It may have been resisted due to growing too much, too fast...but I think its slow, gradual march is inevitable in the long-term.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

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K. A. Pital wrote:Yes, the crisis of an unequal system designed to benefit primarily the rich has finally produced a political backlash against globalization which is strong enough to alter policy in the future, but this does not explain just why global trade is slowing down even now, when the globalist neoliberal elites are still at the helm and pushing their well-known policies down the subjects' throat with wild abandon.
IMO it's an inevitable result of neoliberal policies. Consumers have become too poor to be able to keep consuming even with cheap credit (and credit's no longer as cheap and available as it was), the finance markets have jumped from investing bubble to investing bubble and some economists say there simply are no more markets to exploit for quick easy cash left, on the entire planet. Basically the finance sector has burnt itself out. This is talked about a bit in the end of Mark Blyths book on Austerity.

Basically the system as envisioned can't work, it's just too rigged for all the money floating to the top and staying there, and when that happens, the economy slows down. My recipe for growth is pretty simple, more money for the poors, just take a loan and give everyone with a bank account 2000€ and watch as things start happening very fast. It'll pay itself back more than any tax cuts for the rich could. Fund it by taxing them even...
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by Q99 »

More even wealth distribution would make globalization more valuable still.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by K. A. Pital »

Q99 wrote:More even wealth distribution would make globalization more valuable still.
More even wealth distribution between whom and whom?
Q99 wrote:It's got some current backlash, but I view that as temporary. There's too much mutual benefit to trade (and not just for the elites- NAFTA is a major factor in the rise of the Mexican middle class and helped US farmers, for example), and most of the backlash strikes me as just a current zeitgeist rather than any fundamental change. I feel there's currently a blown-up perception of the negative, but the positive- for everyone- is there.
If you feel the perception is blown-up, I wonder what you think of my thread here.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by Kingmaker »

Why is it a good thing for the world to be more insular again? Has there been some revolutionary new finding that overturns the overwhelming consensus that international trade is hugely benefit? (No, no there hasn't).
give everyone with a bank account 2000€ and watch as things start happening very fast.
Soooooooooo... helicopter money? Sounds pretty neoliberal to me.
In the event that the content of the above post is factually or logically flawed, I was Trolling All Along.

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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

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Kingmaker wrote:Why is it a good thing for the world to be more insular again? Has there been some revolutionary new finding that overturns the overwhelming consensus that international trade is hugely benefit? (No, no there hasn't).
Economists are mostly corrupt pro-capitalist lapdogs - it is well-known, since very few of libertopia idiots could predict the Great Recession, for example, and a lapdog can't do much but claim that his master is doing the right thing. That's preposterous.

How about you explain this:
Image

You are free to challenge the numbers.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

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https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publicat ... ncome-gone
Economists are mostly corrupt pro-capitalist lapdogs
"The evidence saying I'm wrong doesn't count, because literally an entire academic discipline is conspiring against me. Somehow." :roll:
How do you feel about climate change?
it is well-known, since very few of libertopia idiots could predict the Great Recession
I'm not entirely convinced your view of economists or economics resembles reality.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

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Kingmaker wrote:"The evidence saying I'm wrong doesn't count, because literally an entire academic discipline is conspiring against me. Somehow." :roll:
How do you feel about climate change?
I have a degree in economics. And my actual job is related to that.

You cite an opinion - a survey. It is incomparable to climate change. Global warming is not just a matter of scientific consensus, it is borne out of facts. Which are observable.

Please do demonstrate facts that would support your position. That would be all.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

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K. A. Pital wrote: Economists are mostly corrupt pro-capitalist lapdogs - it is well-known, since very few of libertopia idiots could predict the Great Recession,
Non sequitur, explain how not predicting the Great Recession equals being a "pro-capitalist lapdogs".
for example, and a lapdog can't do much but claim that his master is doing the right thing. That's preposterous.
That seems to be case within stuff like think tanks, but can you give more proof on your idea that all economists are corrupt? Studies, statistics, polls?
How about you explain this:
Image

You are free to challenge the numbers.
My first question would be where is that figure from, is it world wide? Is it just the US? Is it Europe? Is it a State in America?

The second one would be questioning how exactly that establishes a relationship between trade deals such as NAFTA and median real wage growth. Can you establish a relationship? As there are other factors that it could be attributed to here.

Lastly, it seems the median real wage growth of the 30-64 age range has gone up, looking at the trend. Then I look at the 18-29 age group, it seems to have had a fall in median wage growth as well here, BUT, that fall seems to be going up from what I can see of the data here and it doesn't change the fact that a majority of the population, IE the 30-64 age group have seen an increase in total from this graph. I haven't looked at the details here, I'm just working off what I have, but the trend doesn't look as bad as you're getting at, from the data you've given me.

Can you explain your position a bit more here?
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

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I have a degree in economics.
Cool story. Why should I believe you over the overwhelming consensus of the discipline, which includes people who have much fancier degrees? Especially given that you hold rather heterodox views? Your argument rests on the unsubstantiated claim that 90%+ of economists lying shills.
You cite an opinion - a survey.
It seemed faster than attempting a comprehensive review of academic literature on trade, especially since I doubt these guys got their answers from their magic 8-balls. How do you feel about vaccines and autism?
Please do demonstrate facts that would support your position.
I did. Did you actually read it?

Alternatively:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/COMPRNFB

http://www.cfr.org/trade/naftas-economic-impact/p15790 <- here's an article on the topic of trade from the CFR (NAFTA in particular). It's not scholarly itself, but it cites a number of scholarly articles. Sure, it's written by corrupt lapdogs and cites corrupt lapdogs, but it gets the point across.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Oh come on, you really think that it's such a preposterous idea to suggest that economics institutions across the world have been influenced by the wealthy so as to promote their interests at every level? Pital is certainly not the first person to observe this:

http://www.rdwolff.com/richard_wolff_on ... _socialism
My economic colleagues -- many of whom are anti-Marxist or indifferent to Marxism -- what these two camps share in common is that they don't know a thing about Marxism. It's not their fault; they are smart, but it's been the cultural asphyxiation of open-mindedness in American academic culture that makes them unable to think that way and which gives me the wonderful opportunity to compare how the different approaches deal with the problem.

So I know how mainstream economics does it, and I know how Marxian does it, and can look and see, and pick and choose, and pull these things together, whereas my colleagues can't do that. I can talk to them about neoclassical and Keynesianism, but they can't talk to me about Marxism. It's as if we didn't speak the same language. So it's very peculiar.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... -mean.html
There are just a lot of people out there exerting significant influence over the political debate who are totally unqualified. The dilemma is especially acute in the political economic field, where wealthy right-wingers have pumped so much money to subsidize the field of pro-rich people polemics that the demand for competent defenders of letting rich people keep as much of their money as possible vastly outstrips the supply. Hence the intellectual marketplace for arguments that we should tax rich people less is glutted with hackery.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by K. A. Pital »

Kingmaker wrote:
I have a degree in economics.
Cool story. Why should I believe you over the overwhelming consensus of the discipline, which includes people who have much fancier degrees? Especially given that you hold rather heterodox views? Your argument rests on the unsubstantiated claim that 90%+ of economists lying shills.
You shouldn't - well done, first lesson learned. Let me elaborate, as it might not be obvious to people unfamiliar with the trade. Economics is not hard science. Many economists, especially of the freetrader camp, do not use the scientific method at all. Empirical observation is frowned upon if it contradicts the theory.
It seemed faster than attempting a comprehensive review of academic literature on trade, especially since I doubt these guys got their answers from their magic 8-balls. How do you feel about vaccines and autism?
Sure, quoting opinions is faster than doing your own research or even digging deeper into another's research. That much is clear to me. But let me warn you - this is a disservice to science.

Even in hard sciences, scientific consensus is not meant to be trusted blindly, unless you want to expose yourself as a know-nothing. Once upon a time, aether was the consensus in hard sciences. It took the entire theory of relativity with all its complexities to successfully overturn this view. Because empirical observation was king, as was falsifiability.

In economics outside few heterodox concepts (behaviourism, empirical ec, socio-econ), falsifiability and empirical observation are not held in high regard. This means that the consensus is already on a very shaky foundation before we even began examining the facts.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/COMPRNFB

http://www.cfr.org/trade/naftas-economic-impact/p15790 <- here's an article on the topic of trade from the CFR (NAFTA in particular). It's not scholarly itself, but it cites a number of scholarly articles. Sure, it's written by corrupt lapdogs and cites corrupt lapdogs, but it gets the point across.
Let us examine the facts, then:
Article wrote:A 2014 PIIE study of NAFTA's effects found that about 15,000 jobs on net are lost each year due to the pact—but that for each of those jobs lost, the economy gains roughly $450,000 in the form of higher productivity and lower consumer prices
Do you understand what exactly is written here? This means that actual people are losing their jobs, and it is little consolation to them that "the economy" - an abstract blob of GDP, of which an ever-greater share is taken by the rich and ultra-rich, as I am sure you are aware - gains extra 450,000 bucks. In fact, let's consider that each of the 15000 employees had a wage of 30k dollars. This is not much, by American standards, or so I hear. This means that 15000 lost workplaces have resulted in labour - the workers, which are the majority in every society - losing a total of... 450 000 dollars.

I am sure that one can argue the general benefits exceed losses, because capitalist profits are rising. Indeed, any lowering of the price of labour usually drives up the rate of profit - and vice-versa, a more expensive workforce tends to accelerate the drop in the rate of profit, which actually occurs anyway due to competition and rising investment.

Let's say, though, these are cheap workers who lose jobs, and each gets just 20k yearly. This results in a loss of 300000 USD which, compared to the benefits of 450 000, leaves just 150k left. And this benefit is first and foremost a capitalist benefit, not for the workers.

So even in your own article meant to defend NAFTA from criticism I already see deep flaws in reasoning. Another one is:
Many economists also assert that the recent troubles of U.S. manufacturing have little to do with NAFTA, arguing that manufacturing in the United States was under stress decades before the treaty. Research by David Autor, David Dorn, and Gordon Hanson published in January 2016 found (PDF) that competition with China had a much bigger negative impact on U.S. jobs since 2001, when China joined the WTO.
This would serve well to protect NAFTA from some criticism, but it does nothing to further the cause of neoliberal free trade policies, at least as far as benefits for the First World are concerned. Because overall the WTO is also a free trade mechanism meant to lower tariffs and ease trade and investment.
HortonX25 wrote:Non sequitur, explain how not predicting the Great Recession equals being a "pro-capitalist lapdogs".
Very simple. Most economists work in the private sector for their banker and capitalist buddies. These have been led astray by the promise of perpetual crisis-less growth and "Dow hitting 36000" and similar nonsense, but it sounded very nice, so a lot of the professionals kept repeating or even trying to "support" these bullshit mantras with the weight of their opinion. After the house of cards collapsed on their fucking heads and a great many gigabanks and supercorporations of the First World almost went under, barely saved by massive government bailouts and last-minute forced lifelines, they have spoiled the reputation of the entire trade. They have stubbornly refused to admit that empirical research has shown deeply troubling events even before the crisis hit in full force, with the stagnating, or even declining, wages, and a rapid and unsustainable rise in indebtedness of the entire population. So by refusing to check reality they instead chose to side with the overlords who paid them.

It is best demonstrated in the rating agencies (S&P, Moody's etc) who practically colluded with the banking industry pre-2007 to show extremely toxic shit made of unpayable debt as first-rate assets. These were staffed with the best and brightest of the industry.

This is not just select think-tanks either. The entire trade is under the influence of the private corporations (as they hand out the most cash and offer best paid jobs), which means they issue studies that are decidedly pro-corporate in nature. This is also why the above phenomena - avoiding empirical observation and dismissing the scientific method in favor of some simplistic axiomatic models - occur so often.

The figure below is from the US. It shows that median wages have basically stagnated, and for the younger generation - the new workers - they have decreased. As one can understand, the older age cohort consists of people who already have a workplace, while the younger cohort is those who receive the job first-time. And this demonstrates that wages are facing a severe downward depression, and new workers receive wages, the purchasing power of which is dramatically below that of their predecessors. In essence, the impoverishing of the younger working-class during the generational turnover.

This is not connected to NAFTA in particular, and I cannot understand why globalization and general neoliberal freetrade policies of the last 30+ years you are trying to reduce just to one agreement. This is the result of decades of neoliberal policies in action.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Looking back, we shouldn't have saved the banks and finance industry, we should've let them fail when it happened, we'd probably be better off today then, the one country that did let it's banks fail (iceland) and did basically everything the neoliberal hawks said not to, has recovered much faster than the rest of europe which is mired in eternal stagnation.

We might even have gotten real lucky and destroyed the euro too in europe had we let the whole thing fail, which would've been so much better in the long term. I think we're gonna have to let it fail eventually anyway as it's too big to bail.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by K. A. Pital »

The problem is, people usually badly appreciate the value of democracy, but greatly appreciate the value free trade. They put a high value on the latter, because that is what the corporations pay for - lots of pro-corporate propaganda and a vomit-level sweet-pill picture in mass-media that paints a rosy outcome for everyone except, of course, the stupid malcontents (who will be overpowered in the end). Eventually, when democracy results in anti-freetrader votes, people ought to question free trade, but they question democracy instead.

In the end, free trade is forced upon people by oligarchic elites through decidedly undemocratic means. But somehow, it is the people who are questioned - and not the army of paid pro-corporate shills writing panegyrics to free trade.

Even in this thread, the opinions of the elite are held in high regard, while the opinions of the people amount to nothing. But why not ask the workers how they feel?
Image
Gallup wrote:Working Americans are slightly more likely than unemployed Americans to say the effect of NAFTA on the U.S. economy has been "mainly negative," 56% to 48%.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by SolarpunkFan »

Accordingly, the Eurozone’s fragile recovery should become less and less dependent on export growth and more focused on the revival of domestic demand
So the problem with the economy isn't on the supply side but rather on the demand side?

You don't say.
Seeing current events as they are is wrecking me emotionally. So I say 'farewell' to this forum. For anyone who wonders.
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Kingmaker
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by Kingmaker »

You shouldn't - well done, first lesson learned.
:roll:
Let me elaborate, as it might not be obvious to people unfamiliar with the trade. Economics is not hard science. Many economists, especially of the freetrader camp, do not use the scientific method at all. Empirical observation is frowned upon if it contradicts the theory.
You're not doing a great job of convincing me you're not full of shit. I don't have a degree in economics, but I happen to know a lot of people who do, and they are anything but anti-empirical. Econometrics is a huge deal, and the discipline as a whole is extremely data hungry. This is reflected in most of the economics literature I've read as well - nearly all of it is statistical analysis or modeling. Amusing, economics is often criticized for being too technical and quantitative.

Perhaps you're thinking of Marxists and Austrians, who eschew positive science? Of course, they're not mainstream; they're rightly ignored, because most of what they say is unfalsifiable and/or nonsense.
In economics outside few heterodox concepts (behaviourism, empirical ec, socio-econ), falsifiability and empirical observation are not held in high regard.
Behaviorism is a theory in psychology, not economics. Behavioral Economics, if that is what you're referring to, isn't heterodox at all. Here is a list of people in the Harvard econ department who study it (if you care to, you can find comparable examples from other top-tier programs like Chicago, MIT, or Princeton) a behavioral economist won the Nobel Prize back in 2002, etc... Not exactly fringe stuff, even if it is relatively new. Econometrics is, as I mentioned, considered pretty important, so I'm not sure what you're getting at by claiming empirical economics is heterodox. I can't speak to 'socio-econ', because that could refer to any of several things.

--

Regarding the comments on the CFR article:

I don't think you actually read the PIIE study you think supports you. It specifically notes that the jobs resulting from NAFTA pay substantially better than the displaced jobs.* It also notes that NAFTA leads to lower consumer prices. Neither of these are benefits to capital. Nor does the Autor paper suggest that trade with China was a net negative on the whole, merely that it had significant disemployment effects in industries competing with Chinese imports.

Modern anti-trade sentiment is little more than a rehash of the Candle makers' Petition with a fresh coat of populist (and often rather xenophobic) paint, and there's little reason to believe it will benefit the average person, rather than raising costs and encouraging rent-seeking - an outcome that appears to have been rather common in, say, Latin America (ISI didn't really pan out). If you want to endorse a more substantial TAA or something like that, by all means go ahead. Trade is a classic example of a situation with diffuse winners and concentrated losers. But to suggest that trade only benefits investors at the expense of consumers/labors is either wildly misinformed or wildly dishonest.

*I find it hilarious that you criticize econ for lack of empiricism while defending your claims with numbers pulled straight from your rectum.

--
TithonusSyndrome wrote:Oh come on, you really think that it's such a preposterous idea to suggest that economics institutions across the world have been influenced by the wealthy so as to promote their interests at every level?
Yes. Yes, I do. A vast right-wing conspiracy theory is not evident in political affiliations of economists. It's even more apparent when you consider the typical conduct of fringe economists. Richard Wolff, the gentleman you quoted, has also said:
The notion of "refuting" an economic theory is itself crude and inappropriate. That applies to Marxian theory as to all other theories. These are rather different ways to think about an economy, to approach grasping its structure and dynamic. To ask if an economic theory is true and another false is like asking if eating with knife and fork is true while eating with chopsticks is false.
That should be a good indication as to why he's not taken seriously and nobody is interested in understanding him.
In the event that the content of the above post is factually or logically flawed, I was Trolling All Along.

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K. A. Pital
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by K. A. Pital »

Kingmaker wrote:You're not doing a great job of convincing me you're not full of shit. I don't have a degree in economics, but I happen to know a lot of people who do, and they are anything but anti-empirical. Econometrics is a huge deal, and the discipline as a whole is extremely data hungry. This is reflected in most of the economics literature I've read as well - nearly all of it is statistical analysis or modeling. Amusing, economics is often criticized for being too technical and quantitative.
"Quantitative and technical" and agreeing with actual observation are different things. The predictive power of models in economics is severely lacking. You have already demonstrated that you don't even understand the core of my argument.
Kingmaker wrote:Perhaps you're thinking of Marxists and Austrians, who eschew positive science? Of course, they're not mainstream; they're rightly ignored, because most of what they say is unfalsifiable and/or nonsense.
Austrians only made the last step in shouting out loud that they throw falsifiability out of the window and "whadda ya gonna do about it". Others do it as well, neoclassical economics included, as they rely on primitive axiomatic simplifications and statements that are either unfalsifiable or untestable. Or, in the worst case, the observation falsifies the prediction, but economists seem to happily carry on. Marxists are also guilty of this, at least the hardcore variety. It actually harms their political cause, as unfalsifiable axioms do not belong to hard science.
Kingmaker wrote:Econometrics is, as I mentioned, considered pretty important
Observation of past phenomena in social sciences does not allow to produce solid "laws" that would continue unchanged into the future until eternity.
Kingmaker wrote:It specifically notes that the jobs resulting from NAFTA pay substantially better than the displaced jobs.*
There are no actual comparisons with numbers, so I might just as well claim that the creation of an investment banker job who squanders billions in the Great Recession is progress in comparison to a few lost engineer or machine tool operator jobs because the banker is being paid ten times as much. Of course, this is bullshit of the highest order, but you'd fall for it.
Kingmaker wrote:It also notes that NAFTA leads to lower consumer prices.
If NAFTA leads to lower consumer prices, why have real wages of workers been stagnant? Where is the benefit that's not a benefit to capital here?
Image
But let's assume that perhaps trade is a zero-sum game and while for the US workers NAFTA has brought no visible gains, at least it brought them for Mexico's workers. Except that assumption falls to bits when you examine the facts - Mexican minimum wage has collapsed and hit rock-bottom with the introduction of NAFTA:
Image
In fact all wages hit a severe shock after the introduction of NAFTA:
Image
Image
And a rise in poverty was dramatic and extreme:
Image
So I am sure you can find these "diffuse winners" somewhere in walled mansions, but first you'd have to explain to the people why the fuck did the workers have to endure years of malnourishment. I am sure for such a skilled specialist this problem won't be too hard to solve.
Kingmaker wrote:Nor does the Autor paper suggest that trade with China was a net negative on the whole, merely that it had significant disemployment effects in industries competing with Chinese imports.
Of course he does not suggest it, but it does not help your cause as significant disemployment is harming the workers.
Kingmaker wrote:Modern anti-trade sentiment is little more than a rehash of the Candle makers' Petition with a fresh coat of populist (and often rather xenophobic) paint, and there's little reason to believe it will benefit the average person, rather than raising costs and encouraging rent-seeking - an outcome that appears to have been rather common in, say, Latin America (ISI didn't really pan out).
And where are the numbers to prove you right?
Kingmaker wrote:If you want to endorse a more substantial TAA or something like that, by all means go ahead. Trade is a classic example of a situation with diffuse winners and concentrated losers. But to suggest that trade only benefits investors at the expense of consumers/labors is either wildly misinformed or wildly dishonest.
:lol: Says he who couldn't produce one fucking number to prove his position. Where are the diffuse winners? Why the last decades, which have been an almost never-stopping story of free trade area creation and globalization, have been marked by wage stagnation or, taking housing into account, an actual decline in the purchasing power of wages?
Kingmaker wrote:*I find it hilarious that you criticize econ for lack of empiricism while defending your claims with numbers pulled straight from your rectum.
I find it hilarious that you haven't produced any numbers at all.
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Guardsman Bass
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by Guardsman Bass »

K. A. Pital wrote:
Kingmaker wrote:Why is it a good thing for the world to be more insular again? Has there been some revolutionary new finding that overturns the overwhelming consensus that international trade is hugely benefit? (No, no there hasn't).
Economists are mostly corrupt pro-capitalist lapdogs - it is well-known, since very few of libertopia idiots could predict the Great Recession, for example, and a lapdog can't do much but claim that his master is doing the right thing. That's preposterous.

How about you explain this:
Image

You are free to challenge the numbers.
I'll bite. People hit their peak career earnings after 30, and your chart shows that for groups in that "prime" category their real wages have gone up overtime aside from two economic recessions (one in the early 1980s, and another in the early 1990s). That's a good sign - it doesn't show some failure of the capitalist system since 1979.

As for 18-29, that's not so good - but it could just as easily be explained by a greater fraction of workers in that category forgoing full-time work for education, lowering their wage earnings at that age but hardly a bad thing.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

K. A. Pital wrote: "Quantitative and technical" and agreeing with actual observation are different things. The predictive power of models in economics is severely lacking. You have already demonstrated that you don't even understand the core of my argument.
It's hard to understand the core of your argument when you keep shifting the goalposts. You've gone from arguing that we can't trust economists because "Economists are mostly corrupt pro-capitalist lapdogs", to vaguely claiming that economic models have low predictive power. Those are two very, very different lines of reasoning.
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by Guardsman Bass »

K.A. Pital wrote:But let's assume that perhaps trade is a zero-sum game and while for the US workers NAFTA has brought no visible gains, at least it brought them for Mexico's workers. Except that assumption falls to bits when you examine the facts - Mexican minimum wage has collapsed and hit rock-bottom with the introduction of NAFTA:
Convenient that you end the series in 1999. NAFTA didn't go into effect with all of its provisions immediately in 1994, and after the mid-1990s downturn Mexico recovered - something your own charts show with a recovery of the real average wage rate and a reduction in poverty that lasted until the downturn in 2007.
K.A. Pital wrote:Do you understand what exactly is written here? This means that actual people are losing their jobs, and it is little consolation to them that "the economy" - an abstract blob of GDP, of which an ever-greater share is taken by the rich and ultra-rich, as I am sure you are aware - gains extra 450,000 bucks. In fact, let's consider that each of the 15000 employees had a wage of 30k dollars. This is not much, by American standards, or so I hear. This means that 15000 lost workplaces have resulted in labour - the workers, which are the majority in every society - losing a total of... 450 000 dollars.
15,000 jobs a year is a drop in the bucket, and almost totally non-effectual against overall job creation and destruction in the US economy in any given year. The US created net 151,000 jobs in the month of August 2016 alone, and that was a weaker month- it was over 200,000 for July 2016.
K.A. Pital wrote:Says he who couldn't produce one fucking number to prove his position. Where are the diffuse winners? Why the last decades, which have been an almost never-stopping story of free trade area creation and globalization, have been marked by wage stagnation or, taking housing into account, an actual decline in the purchasing power of wages?
Aside from citing the $450,000 value up-thread? Seriously?

Funny you should bring up housing costs as well, since that's a regulatory issue - the US gives local authorities a ton of power to blunt the expansion of housing stock (especially for poorer people), and they do so happily. The few areas that haven't done so or for which it's not a problem yet because there's room to grow outward - Houston, Salt Lake City - have done much better on housing costs and real wage growth.

In fact, that brings up a bigger issue, namely that much of the cost drivers in the US economy are from things that are not linked to globalization and trade. Broader trends in housing costs are not largely linked to globalization and trade, increases in education costs are largely not linked to globalization and trade, and increases in health care costs are not largely linked to globalization and trade. There's only so much influence trade can have on your economy when it's only equal to about 28% of your country's GDP.

If you really want a look at the impact of trade on rich countries, why don't you go look at some of the more heavily trade-exposed ones? Pretty much any of the northern and western EU countries will do.
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K. A. Pital
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Re: Is globalization dead or dying?

Post by K. A. Pital »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:It's hard to understand the core of your argument when you keep shifting the goalposts. You've gone from arguing that we can't trust economists because "Economists are mostly corrupt pro-capitalist lapdogs", to vaguely claiming that economic models have low predictive power. Those are two very, very different lines of reasoning.
The fact that they're lapdogs is connected to this. Honest researchers would never produce hideous lies in form of "studies" to please their masters, especially when faced with evidence to the contrary. To avoid this, economists base their recommendations in axiomatic statements which, again, are good for math, but are not good for anything connected to the real world. I don't see people acknowledging that flat real wages in the US and declining and thereafter flat real wages in Mexico actually mean workers haven't benefitted from NAFTA one single bit. But the data is there.
Guardsman Bass wrote:Convenient that you end the series in 1999.
Open your eyes because this is getting tiresome. A fall, then flat up to 2013. Enough said for the "benefits" of NAFTA:
Image
Guardsman Bass wrote:15,000 jobs a year is a drop in the bucket
Come on. I'm not even sure this number corresponds to reality at all. That's what was given to me.
Guardsman Bass wrote:Aside from citing the $450,000 value up-thread?
Image
Tired.

This "value" is not value for the workers. No value for the workers? Fuck that "value" and fuck the fucking fuckers.
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