Purchasing a vehicle

[Aether]

I am currently looking for a second vehicle for my daily driver, so I can retire the racecar™ for spirited weekend driving, strip, and track. I am looking at a mid-sized truck or even a sexy Jeep Wrangler. My main goal is to keep the total price financed to be ~22k with 2k as a down payment. The vehicle can be new or used.

If new, it must be an entry level vehicle. I don't care about remote keyless entry (I suppose those are standard regardless), power locks, doors, or seats. I have no interest in an infotainment system either. By doing so that helps me to limit the financed amount to 20k; and it is just a point A to point B vehicle anyway. If used, the same pricing applies except any add ons are just there in the total price, so no big deal.

So story time.

I this weekend I did the Edmunds schtick and sent off emails for dealer quotes. I exchanged emails back and forth with one in particular which had a smoking deal for a 2016 Chevy Colorado $21,955. Pretty damn close to my goal. I explained again that I am only interested in an entry level vehicle. He told me that it's not on the lot and that it is in transit, but could transfer that price to one existing on the lot. Makes sense as dealers want to move inventory they already have. Fine. I decided to go to the dealer and discuss pricing and financing as best as they can. In other words, I am not buying that day, but would like a tentative out the door price with financing options. I understand that they are not going to show all their cards until I am ready to deal.

He wanted to photocopy my drivers license so they "know my zip code for determining rates". I am presuming that is pulling my credit, which is not an option that day. He was a little irritated that I did not give him my driver's license, and simply told him my zip code. He came back with the tentative deal and we go from 21,995 to $27,500. You might as well figure taxes, title, registration, doc fee makes, $21,995 really $24,200. Still, that's $3300 more than I want to pay. What goes from mild irritation on his part, seems to come out as contempt. I asked how does the price jump that high? I am aware of TTLR. "Dealer add ons" he says. I explained that no where does it say that on the website to that specific vehicle and that it is only a generic statement a the bottom of the page that dealer OR customer add ons increases the price. The add ons in question is the bed liner $700 and a theft system (low jack?) which is $800. I didn't scrutinize further to see what else was added in. He then asked would I buy if those were not an option, and I said no and that I am just there to discuss face to face as email can be misleading. "Why are you here then?", he asked. He asked if I wanted to talk to the sales manager to explain the pricing, I said no, but he got up and walked away. And ultimately so did I.

I must be a bad customer.There seems to be no point in even bothering with a face to face until you are ready to buy that day. Is this what is has come to?

TL;DR.
Anyone have their tips to share on dealing with car salesmen?

[Elheru Aran]

How to deal with salesmen (or women, as the case may be)?

Don't.

You know what you want. You know the price you want. Find something that fits those parameters. Don't budge (unless it's downwards on the price).

Unless you're in the middle of Nowhere, USA, you are going to have at least two or three auto dealers within say half a hour's drive of your nearest municipality. You are going to have options. If one dealer won't play with you, pack up and take your business elsewhere unless you REALLY want the car at that specific lot... and if you REALLY want that and they won't play... either compromise with yourself, or adjust what you want.

EDIT: To be quite plain, trying to buy a new car is a fool's game anyway. It's going to depreciate by 1/3 the second you drive it off the lot. A nice used car is going to suit you far better than a new car, for much the same condition and a better price. By 'nice used' I mean something like a car that's maybe a few years out of date (2014, for example), one owner who always took it to the dealer for scheduled maintenance and had a wash-vac-wax every month...

EDIT2: And for heavens' sake don't bother with the email thing. If you have to buy something in person, a car is a pretty good example. If you don't have the time for it, and you NEED another car, make time. If you don't have the time and you WANT another car... you have days off don't you?

Looking up the general price online is one thing, that's perfectly fine. My work has this program where employees can get a discount at certain car dealers, and you can look up the cars in question. Got my second-to-last car that way. I had to drive all the way up to the other side of town, but I got a much better price than was available in my area. But don't haggle online, it's a waste of time. Go see the car, THEN haggle.

[Prannon]

I agree with pretty much everything that EA has said, with one bit of added advice. Buy your car from Car Max. I've gotten both of my recent cars from them and have never had a bad experience with the car or the sales process.

[Raw Shark]

To be quite plain, trying to buy a new car is a fool's game anyway. It's going to depreciate by 1/3 the second you drive it off the lot. A nice used car is going to suit you far better than a new car, for much the same condition and a better price. By 'nice used' I mean something like a car that's maybe a few years out of date (2014, for example), one owner who always took it to the dealer for scheduled maintenance and had a wash-vac-wax every month...

+2 on that, except that I'm not as picky about the wash-vac-wax thing. I paid $500 for a Ford Explorer that was 5 years out of date but hadn't been used a lot and was parked indoors when I needed something to transport all of my crap across the country to move here, and it ran like a champ for fifteen years until it died in the big flood last June (R.I.P., Green Lantern).

Also, if you live in a big city, you might get a better deal by looking outside of its borders. There's a grey area where cars get cheaper as the population density goes down, until you really get out into the sticks and competing dealers are so few and far between that they go back up.

[His Divine Shadow]

All I'm gonna say is toyota, mazda, honda, that direction is where I'd be looking.

[Venator]

All I'm gonna say is toyota, mazda, honda, that direction is where I'd be looking.

Look at long-term reliability scores in general. The F-150 seems to win out over the Silveriera twins and the Ram, while the Wrangler seems to be the only reliable product FCA makes.

I'm actually partial to the new Ridgeline, especially if it's a daily driver and not for extreme work conditions. It'll always drive nicer than a ladder-frame truck.

[Raw Shark]

I'm no expert, but I grew up in a Ford family, I drive Fords for my living, and it's never done me terribly wrong. I've heard that Japan makes some pretty good stuff, but I have my biases and they haven't screwed me in a way that I'm going to blame on them instead of poor maintenance, and I'd rather support local laborers.

AND BY THE WAY, HAPPY LABOR DAY, AMERICA! YOU SUCK IN A LOT OF WAYS, BUT WE'RE STILL BETTER OFF SUPPORTING OUR NEIGHBORS!

[Venator]

I'm no expert, but I grew up in a Ford family, I drive Fords for my living, and it's never done me terribly wrong. I've heard that Japan makes some pretty good stuff, but I have my biases and they haven't screwed me in a way that I'm going to blame on them instead of poor maintenance, and I'd rather support local laborers.

AND BY THE WAY, HAPPY LABOR DAY, AMERICA! YOU SUCK IN A LOT OF WAYS, BUT WE'RE STILL BETTER OFF SUPPORTING OUR NEIGHBORS!

I've liked the Ford trucks I've driven for work for the most part - Rangers and F-250s through 550s - but I now have a 2015 Focus for work and it's a jerky, recalcitrant, ergonomically compromised, cheap-feeling POS that somehow guzzles more fuel than my lifted Subaru.

[Napoleon the Clown]

I agree with pretty much everything that EA has said, with one bit of added advice. Buy your car from Car Max. I've gotten both of my recent cars from them and have never had a bad experience with the car or the sales process.

I am going to recommend against CarMax, because they're a no-haggling dealer that will charge you more than you could easily get on your own.


For absolute best results, if you personally don't know what you're doing, there are people who will do all the legwork for you. A Google search for "car buying consultant" may net useful results for you. The one I'm immediately aware of charges about $500 for his services, fees may vary. Truck buying is a pain in the ass more than any other market, right now, because everybody is convinced they want a truck. Dealers aren't having any difficulty finding buyers, and the used market is absolutely insane these days. Finding something in your out-the-door price range is gonna be very difficult, unless you want to settle for an absolute piece of shit that may not last a year.

Best bit of advice I can give you, is look for used work trucks. They have a minimum of options and usually go for less.

Though if I'm going to be giving my best possible advice, I would advise that unless you regularly need a truck you'll be much better served buying a decent sedan instead. You'll be getting a vehicle that's easier to park, uses less gas (which will matter when gas prices go back up), won't murder someone if there's a crash... And when I say need, I mean there are things you do at least once a month that require a truck to accomplish. Stuff that U-Haul wouldn't let you do with a rented pick-up.

[Terralthra]

I bought a new car because I had spent the last two years fixing basically everything it was possible to fix on my old car myself. I wanted a couple years of maintenance and repair-free driving. When I say fixing, I mean fixing. I pulled and fixed or replaced the clutch, control arms, catalytic converter, crown bolts, ball joints, intake manifold, over the course of 20 months before one of the axles fell out of the transaxle and wouldn't stay in despite being properly remounted. Twice. The cost of a new transaxle and associated parts was more than the value of the car by that point. On the "nice used" front, I live in the SF Bay Area, where cars hold up well enough that a lightly used car like the ones you're discussing are not going to be a significant savings over just buying new.

Mind, that car (1999 Honda CR-V) was 15 years old by the time it gave up the ghost, so I was more than happy to buy a new Honda. My new one is a manual transmission Fit. It gets great gas mileage and is reasonably fun to drive.

[Lonestar]

I don't care about remote keyless entry (I suppose those are standard regardless), power locks, doors, or seats. I have no interest in an infotainment system either.

Honestly, if this was my daily driver, that is, the one I would be spending most of my time in...that is the one I would want all the amenities in. Who wants to sit an hour in traffic with shitty ergonomics and a shitty sound system?

[His Divine Shadow]

I've had the same car since 2009 and it's a toyota yaris, it's had service once because of something broken (suspension spring, I had driven with it for months without noticing a part at the end had broken off), other than that it's just maintenance, oil changes, tires etc.

It's more practical than a pickup because I can put a trailer behind it when I need to and a trailer is way cheaper than a pickup and I don't to pull it along with me everywhere I go. I considered a pickup as a spare car, but a trailer was just so much better a deal. I'd need some very specific needs met for a pickup really.

My parents car is 18 years old, it's a 1998 Mazda. The times it has needed to visit the shop can be counted one one hand, it still runs pretty flawlessly and uses hardly any gas (keeps up with modern cars) and is basically like new in shape thanks to dutiful maintenance.

[Enigma]

Why a truck? I bought (financed) a new '15 Mitsubishi Mirage at the end of April and I love this car. The only downside was that it did not have cruise control (That would have come really handy with that 1,000 mile round trip to Ottawa and back, three weeks ago). Not counting the trip to Ottawa, I've spent maybe $30 on gas since I got the car (granted, I do have discounts for fuel). Whereas when I had my Cadillac, I'd spend at least $20 to top up from half a tank every two weeks to maybe $10 or so a month with the Mirage.

It has great gas mileage. Though the Mirage has a highway mileage of around 44mpg, at one point in my trip to Ottawa, my car recorded an average of 46.5.

The stereo is good enough that I can actually hear music. As a guy with a cochlear implant, I was ecstatic. I burned all of my old CDs into a USB stick, plugged it in and got to really enjoy the music. (something that was a hit or miss with my computer.)

It isn't powerful but does have a decent enough kick.

Down side is that it is a subcompact.

[Borgholio]

Dealing with any commissioned salesman is the same, you just have to stick to your guns and make them give you a deal that you would be happy with. As a mild comparison, my wife and I upgraded our mattress from a Queen to a King (she likes to sprawl). We went to Ashley where they had long-term no interest financing, plus rebates on certain mattress bases and so forth. We shopped and found one that was comfortable and had the features we wanted but it was a bit out of our price range. There was a gift card that could be applied to another purchase in the store later. We asked if we could apply the gift card to the bed frame (since it's technically a separate purchase) and he said sure. So boom, a few hundred off and it was in our price range. We rang it up, delivery was a bitch and negated half the savings of the gift card. Asked if we could get a break on the delivery. Manager came by and offered to upgrade our mattress with a higher-end one for the same price. We insisted that it's the price that's the problem, not the features. We gave him a hard number of the max we were willing to spend (we actually could spend more but they didn't need to know that). Ten minutes later, he came back and said we have a deal.

Sorry for the long winded narrative of what we did this weekend...but the point is that you have your needs and the price you are willing to pay. They will want you to pay as much as possible. Don't play their game. They will be able to make all sorts of deals to get your business. You need to be satisfied with the deal, that's the most important thing. Don't be afraid to turn them down if they don't have the car you really want. Or if the price mysteriously goes up, call them out on it or go somewhere else. If they really want the sale, they'll make deals. You could get discounts on an existing car on the lot just so they can move the inventory. You could get a lower interest rate on financing. You could get maintenance for the next year or two thrown in. Make it clear to them what your price range is and what options really matter to you. If they're not willing to meet you in price (within reason), or if they keep trying to upsell you on options you don't need, then you can just walk away. This particular salesman seemed like an asshole so you did the right thing.

[Elheru Aran]

I don't have a dog in the automobile maker fight, but I will note briefly that I've had good experiences with Ford and Honda.

1993 Ford Probe-- bought used after probably several different owners-- drove it for two or three years. My first car, so I almost certainly didn't take enough care of it, but it kept plugging away pretty damn well until the transmission fell out (more or less literally).

1998 Ford Taurus station wagon-- my dad put nearly 200K miles on it just by himself (he drives a lot in his job). I didn't put a whole lot more on it. But it worked pretty darn well for probably three years. It had a bad leak under the windshield, but other than that.

Honda Accord (don't recall year but it was probably a 90s or early 2000s model). Bought used. Lasted me a good couple years without a twitch until it got T-boned.

Honda Odyssey van. Older lady but working well. Can outrun half the cars on the road with ease. Pretty great mileage. Happy with it so far (it's my current vehicle).

Regarding Carmax: They do have lots where you can visit and talk to the dealers directly. Some negotiation might be possible there. My mother-in-law got her Honda Accord there and it's lasted her a good... 4 years?

[Napoleon the Clown]

I've had the same car since 2009 and it's a toyota yaris, it's had service once because of something broken (suspension spring, I had driven with it for months without noticing a part at the end had broken off), other than that it's just maintenance, oil changes, tires etc.

It's more practical than a pickup because I can put a trailer behind it when I need to and a trailer is way cheaper than a pickup and I don't to pull it along with me everywhere I go. I considered a pickup as a spare car, but a trailer was just so much better a deal. I'd need some very specific needs met for a pickup really.

My parents car is 18 years old, it's a 1998 Mazda. The times it has needed to visit the shop can be counted one one hand, it still runs pretty flawlessly and uses hardly any gas (keeps up with modern cars) and is basically like new in shape thanks to dutiful maintenance.

Because of the differences in trailer design, a Yaris wouldn't be able to get much towing in here in the States. The short of it is, trailers here (in general) put the wheels in a different location relative to center of mass, affecting stability. Also, there's a good chance of higher-speed driving here. It's perfectly legal for me to tow a trailer at 80 mph (almost 130 km/h) here in Utah, if that's the posted speed limit where I am doing the towing. But your basic point is a good one: a car can tow. There are plenty of sedans that are rated to tow 1500+ lbs with regards to a US-design trailer at US speeds.

Very few people actually need a truck. Prices on them have gotten as outrageous as they have because a lot of people who want a truck are convinced they need it. I have very strong opinions on this subject.

[Raw Shark]

Very few people actually need a truck. Prices on them have gotten as outrageous as they have because a lot of people who want a truck are convinced they need it. I have very strong opinions on this subject.

You live in Utah. No personal offense intended, but nobody there needs a bigger reason than a small dick or their profession to feel like they need a truck, and it is a total shithole, but also has some beautiful landscape and the closest In-And-Out to Denver, which I have visited many times.

[Borgholio]

Prices on them have gotten as outrageous as they have because a lot of people who want a truck are convinced they need it.

Last time I was at a dealership, I saw a bunch of GMC and Chevy pickup trucks with sticker prices over $40k, and they weren't even fully loaded. Luxury cars from Acura, Lexus, even the Tesla Model 3 all cost less than that. I would say that most people who buy trucks never use them for what they were intended.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Very few people actually need a truck. Prices on them have gotten as outrageous as they have because a lot of people who want a truck are convinced they need it. I have very strong opinions on this subject.

You live in Utah. No personal offense intended, but nobody there needs a bigger reason than a small dick or their profession to feel like they need a truck, and it is a total shithole, but also has some beautiful landscape and the closest In-And-Out to Denver, which I have visited many times.

None taken. Utah is fucking awful, from a cultural perspective. The sheer number of Super Douchey, err, Super Duty, owners or what have is amazing. I would be shocked if there are that many people who that kind of capability in the middle of the city. Especially considering how pristine every square inch of the things are.

Prices on them have gotten as outrageous as they have because a lot of people who want a truck are convinced they need it.

Last time I was at a dealership, I saw a bunch of GMC and Chevy pickup trucks with sticker prices over $40k, and they weren't even fully loaded. Luxury cars from Acura, Lexus, even the Tesla Model 3 all cost less than that. I would say that most people who buy trucks never use them for what they were intended.

In fairness to trucks, from what I understand most of the ones being sold now offer plenty of capability while still being as good to drive as you can expect out of something so goddamn massive. Smoother rides than ever before, better seats than they used to get, so on. A good truck is gonna have quite a lot of materials, possibly very expensive materials, in addition to all the infotainment shit that basically everything has these days. If trucks had remained purely utilitarian bullshit frills wouldn't really be a thing, and you could get an entry level truck for a lot less than one goes for now. At this point, luxury cars are more about the badge than the actual experience while going down the road. Might be able to get a better ride without sacrificing handling, might be quieter inside. But mostly it comes down to prestige more than actually being nicer to drive/ride in. A Lexus isn't significantly quicker than the Toyota it's based on. It's just shinier, when it really comes down to it.

[Venator]

Prices on them have gotten as outrageous as they have because a lot of people who want a truck are convinced they need it.

Last time I was at a dealership, I saw a bunch of GMC and Chevy pickup trucks with sticker prices over $40k, and they weren't even fully loaded. Luxury cars from Acura, Lexus, even the Tesla Model 3 all cost less than that. I would say that most people who buy trucks never use them for what they were intended.

In fairness to trucks, from what I understand most of the ones being sold now offer plenty of capability while still being as good to drive as you can expect out of something so goddamn massive. Smoother rides than ever before, better seats than they used to get, so on. A good truck is gonna have quite a lot of materials, possibly very expensive materials, in addition to all the infotainment shit that basically everything has these days. If trucks had remained purely utilitarian bullshit frills wouldn't really be a thing, and you could get an entry level truck for a lot less than one goes for now.

It's two-fold. The capability of trucks lures people, same as crossovers - perception of ruggedness and ability over actual requirement. And, yes, trucks are much nicer than before.

Value also plays a part, despite the spiraling stickers. At the last auto show I went to I sat in a Range Rover Sport SVR, then immediately went over to an F-150 Lariat. The Ford wasn't as nice inside by a long shot, but it was still nice - much more so than non-top-trim midsize cars. And the back-seat space is vast compared to the Rangey. Then you look at payload, and find that the F-150 can tow the Range Rover while it was towing its max capacity, while carrying a Smart Car in the bed.

At this point, luxury cars are more about the badge than the actual experience while going down the road. Might be able to get a better ride without sacrificing handling, might be quieter inside. But mostly it comes down to prestige more than actually being nicer to drive/ride in. A Lexus isn't significantly quicker than the Toyota it's based on. It's just shinier, when it really comes down to it.

Not really the case. An Acura ILX or TLX is pretty pointless in a world where the Honda Accord exists, and a Lincoln isn't that far removed from its platform-mate Ford, but they are really intermediate brands. A Lexus, BMW, Audi etc. offers a much bigger difference in driving dynamics and interior quality over a Camry, Taurus, etc.

[Lagmonster]

There are a lot of truck owners up here not because We R Redneck, but because HOLY SHIT AN EIGHT FOOT SNOW DRIFT TOPPED BY A TEN FOOT MOOSE.

Ford, for whatever its failings anywhere, must be capable of making a top-tier Cargo-Capable Battering Ram, because they are vastly more popular locally compared to any other brands.

[Elheru Aran]

It's two-fold. The capability of trucks lures people, same as crossovers - perception of ruggedness and ability over actual requirement. And, yes, trucks are much nicer than before.

Value also plays a part, despite the spiraling stickers. At the last auto show I went to I sat in a Range Rover Sport SVR, then immediately went over to an F-150 Lariat. The Ford wasn't as nice inside by a long shot, but it was still nice - much more so than non-top-trim midsize cars. And the back-seat space is vast compared to the Rangey. Then you look at payload, and find that the F-150 can tow the Range Rover while it was towing its max capacity, while carrying a Smart Car in the bed.

I won't belabour what the vehicle is actually capable of...

But how relevant is that really considering something like probably 50-70% of truck drivers will never drive it at anywhere near that kind of capacity? The maximum you can probably expect is maybe moving Grandma's couch to the thrift store or something like that. Which, I'll certainly grant, is something a truck is very useful for... but that happens once in a blue moon. Forget offroad capabilities or towing capability; again, the great majority of truck drivers are hardly going to do that. Instead they use the damn thing like a big-ass sedan.

I mean, I feel like there has to be a point where the 'value' of having a truck over an automobile, van, SUV or whatever, depreciates simply because you're NOT using its unique capabilities.

[Venator]

There are a lot of truck owners up here not because We R Redneck, but because HOLY SHIT AN EIGHT FOOT SNOW DRIFT TOPPED BY A TEN FOOT MOOSE.

Ford, for whatever its failings anywhere, must be capable of making a top-tier Cargo-Capable Battering Ram, because they are vastly more popular locally compared to any other brands.

They do make very good vehicles, but the popularity is in part compounded by... their popularity. In North America alone, Ford sells one every 30 seconds. They would be on the Fortune 500 list if that was the only vehicle they made.

The only places you typically see more GM or Ram trucks are the towns with those makers' factories.

It's two-fold. The capability of trucks lures people, same as crossovers - perception of ruggedness and ability over actual requirement. And, yes, trucks are much nicer than before.

Value also plays a part, despite the spiraling stickers. At the last auto show I went to I sat in a Range Rover Sport SVR, then immediately went over to an F-150 Lariat. The Ford wasn't as nice inside by a long shot, but it was still nice - much more so than non-top-trim midsize cars. And the back-seat space is vast compared to the Rangey. Then you look at payload, and find that the F-150 can tow the Range Rover while it was towing its max capacity, while carrying a Smart Car in the bed.

I won't belabour what the vehicle is actually capable of...

But how relevant is that really considering something like probably 50-70% of truck drivers will never drive it at anywhere near that kind of capacity? The maximum you can probably expect is maybe moving Grandma's couch to the thrift store or something like that. Which, I'll certainly grant, is something a truck is very useful for... but that happens once in a blue moon. Forget offroad capabilities or towing capability; again, the great majority of truck drivers are hardly going to do that. Instead they use the damn thing like a big-ass sedan.

I mean, I feel like there has to be a point where the 'value' of having a truck over an automobile, van, SUV or whatever, depreciates simply because you're NOT using its unique capabilities.

It's not at all relevant, except that marketing and perception exist, so it's totally relevant. Look at crossover-mania. Honda's new HR-V is a successful seller despite being more cramped, with less passenger or cargo volume than the Fit it's based on. And base prices are six grand (CAD) higher. But it looks tall and tough (...ish), so people's camping/ski trip/zombie apocalypse fantasies go wild.

My own car (Subaru Crosstrek) is literally an Impreza with a $4,000 lift kit and some plastic body armour, and they're everywhere on the streets around Toronto. In my defense, if I'd bought the Impreza it would have been comprehensively fucked a couple times on the trails/fields/construction sites it's been on.

[Raw Shark]

[snip] Ford, for whatever its failings anywhere, must be capable of making a top-tier Cargo-Capable Battering Ram, because they are vastly more popular locally compared to any other brands.

That sums it up. Over here in Taxi World, we have a running joke that Ford makes the worst cabs except for everybody else. I guide a two-ton missile for a living, and I can drop a Prius in my trunk.

[Venator]

[snip] Ford, for whatever its failings anywhere, must be capable of making a top-tier Cargo-Capable Battering Ram, because they are vastly more popular locally compared to any other brands.

That sums it up. Over here in Taxi World, we have a running joke that Ford makes the worst cabs except for everybody else. I guide a two-ton missile for a living, and I can drop a Prius in my trunk.

Well the Crown Vic has/had some major USPs (front seats big enough for a laptop mount, ladder-frame Mad Max-rated construction).

The F-150 doesn't have so many unique features that set it apart from the other trucks (or didn't, anyway, the aluminum construction and turbo engines are now a big departure).