Unarmored Space Marine vs. MCU Captain America

[Simon_Jester]

If Cap has his shield and the Marine has no weapons, yeah, you're right, the shield makes a big difference, especially given the aforementioned impossible throws.

If the Marine does have weapons, not so sure.

[Zixinus]

This is where the circumstances of fight would come in. In the middle of a desert, the fight with an unarmed Cap can go either way (IMO) and an armed Cap probably has good odds.

The odds change drastically if it's in a forest or even in civilization where the Astertes can equip himself even with rudimentary weapons. Some Astartes are more trained in survival and guerilla warfare than others, but they would have no problems securing themselves at least improvised weapons that do add odds in their favor.

[Sea Skimmer]

A lot of improvised weapons would get broken from being hit by the shield, only good once at best. The Marine needs to be able to pick up something pretty damn solid, which isn't really something you do just find anywhere even in a civilized area. A construction site or workshop, sure, most places the heaviest thing you can grab is a fire extinguisher which isn't great. Logically the Marine is looking for a sword...

[Zixinus]

Swords can brake too, especially with the shield. IIRC, Cap's shield is indestructible or nearly, so with enough force that too could be broken. Unless the Astertes brought his own weapons with him, almost anything he finds (unless he stumbles upon a supervillain's lair) could theoretically be broken. However, something simple a makeshift knife or any kind of axe or even steel pipes can change the nature of the fight. Once edged weapons come into play any exchange of blows become much more lethal. The Astartes have a bit of an advantage that there is more meat to get trough to get his vital organs.

[Elheru Aran]

Meat, Black Carapace-- literal organic armour implanted on or under the skin around vulnerable areas-- and heavy, ossified bones; the ribcage in particular is turned into a near breastplate.

[Q99]

To the comic version, that's not unfamiliar. Comic Cap can beat Wolverine a fair amount of the time, who has a nice set of bones himself.

[Sea Skimmer]

Swords can brake too, especially with the shield. IIRC, Cap's shield is indestructible or nearly, so with enough force that too could be broken.

Ah yes the sword can still be broken, but space marine stabbing someone with the broken end of the sword at close quarters would still be incredibly effective at impaling wounds. So it's a pretty difficult weapon for someone to overcome with just a shield and fist, assuming we are not just captain Captain America an absolute advantage in reaction time, in which case he would certainly win all fights. Unlike the Marine Captain America doesn't have any ceramic or metal added into him, so he's certainly not going to be impregenable against stabbing metal from a super solider worthy of the name.

Unless the Astertes brought his own weapons with him, almost anything he finds (unless he stumbles upon a supervillain's lair) could theoretically be broken. However, something simple a makeshift knife or any kind of axe or even steel pipes can change the nature of the fight. Once edged weapons come into play any exchange of blows become much more lethal. The Astartes have a bit of an advantage that there is more meat to get trough to get his vital organs.

I kinda of figure anything not decent of metal would 1) get broken and 2) just not deliver heavy enough blows to a guy whom can stand up to sustained high end human fistfights. Solid iron though is functionally unyielding vs anything in the human body, big advantage over even stout wood.

Captain America makes a lot more sense running around shooting Nazis then fist fighting them.

[Eternal_Freedom]

To the comic version, that's not unfamiliar. Comic Cap can beat Wolverine a fair amount of the time, who has a nice set of bones himself.

Which would be relevant, except we're specifically dealing with MCU Cap here.

On that note, do we have any idea exactly what sort of Space Marine we're dealing with here? It says unarmoured, but there is quite some variety. A Marine who has only recently been inducted will not be as successful as, say, a Veteran Sergeant or a Captain would be.

What type of Marine he is will make a difference as well. If it's an Assault Marine (regular, Vanguard, Terminator, Honour Guard, whatever) he's going to be better and hand to hand fighting than a Devastator or Tactical Marine would be.

And for that matter even which Chapter will make a difference. Space Wolves or Blood Angels (or successors) are more interested in hand to hand than, say, Ultramarines or Imperial Fists. Raven Guard will be sneaky as all hell and if there is enough terrain and/or cover might just hide and ambush Cap, or wait till Rogers falls asleep or something.

Finally, if it's an Iron Hands Marine he should have the typical, erm, Iron Hands bionic/augmented hands, which would make his punches even more dangerous, perhaps tot he point of damaging Cap's shield like Stark or Bucky manage in Civil War.

[Zixinus]

Ah yes the sword can still be broken, but space marine stabbing someone with the broken end of the sword at close quarters would still be incredibly effective at impaling wounds. So it's a pretty difficult weapon for someone to overcome with just a shield and fist, assuming we are not just captain Captain America an absolute advantage in reaction time, in which case he would certainly win all fights

True, but the best defense against a sword is a shield to begin with. An unbreakable shield especially. So in a melee fight it is something massively to his advantage even if he didn't bring any other weapon.

I kinda of figure anything not decent of metal would 1) get broken and 2) just not deliver heavy enough blows to a guy whom can stand up to sustained high end human fistfights.

That's the thing about fights with edged weapons: you only need one good strike to reach vitals, cut arteries or even cut muscles/tendons.

This is why they prefer fistfights and blunt-weapon fights in movies: a hit is bad not not always instantly lethal so the actors only have to react to it, it is safer for the actors and hits aren't obviously lethal.

A makeshift stone knife can brake on the Cap's shield, sure, but it can still cut his guts apart if it is stabbed into his stomach. Hell, so could a sharpened stick.

Captain America makes a lot more sense running around shooting Nazis then fist fighting them.

Yeah, but the Cap is idealistic enough to first try to take the marine down non-lethally for an arrest.

[Kojiro]

Yeah, but the Cap is idealistic enough to first try to take the marine down non-lethally for an arrest.

If Cap just met the guy, maybe. But the OP specified he's under the believe the astartes is a Hydra experiment. He'll punch first and ask questions later.

[Sea Skimmer]

True, but the best defense against a sword is a shield to begin with. An unbreakable shield especially. So in a melee fight it is something massively to his advantage even if he didn't bring any other weapon.

Best defense against a sword is another sword. Certainly though one party being armed with indestructible anything and the other not is pretty slanted. But a shield and a fist against a broken sword and a fist isn't a great position to be in. Captain's main advantage is his impossible shield throws, if the shield is being used defensively what it does is end up pinning him in place. He needs agility to win, and it's still not clear if either guy would have a reaction and speed advantage. 40K has a whole lot of genetic engineering experience behind its Astrals. I'm no space marine fan, but you'd kind of figure they'd get close to the human absolutes on that kind of thing, between the actual gene splicing and the long term training.

That's the thing about fights with edged weapons: you only need one good strike to reach vitals, cut arteries or even cut muscles/tendons.

Yeah. A key advantage of metal is it's extremely likely to break bones, with stone being pretty good too. With wood that's not likely without a very large weapon. This means a big differential in damage in some kind of high end super solider fight.

This is why they prefer fistfights and blunt-weapon fights in movies: a hit is bad not not always instantly lethal so the actors only have to react to it, it is safer for the actors and hits aren't obviously lethal.

A makeshift stone knife can brake on the Cap's shield, sure, but it can still cut his guts apart if it is stabbed into his stomach. Hell, so could a sharpened stick.

He's so strong though a stick point might break off, if while wounding him, in manners it would not against a normal human. Human muscle does work like armor afterall, it's ability to preemptively tense up with strength and training being the only reason people can absorb the body and limb hits they do in the first place. When we start getting into absurdo strength this is actually relevant.

Notionally this should actually reduce damage from gunshots too around the margins, though that'd be far more relevant to blunt wounding damage from hits stopped by soft body armor then in ever reducing organ damage from penetrating wounds.

Yeah, but the Cap is idealistic enough to first try to take the marine down non-lethally for an arrest.

That seems doubtful given the scenario and his typical choice of weapons, he'll use his shield pretty damn freely against normal humans, at which point every single throw is a high probability of fatality. So at that point he'd probably not kill the space marine if they were knocked out or stunned, but once wounded to that degree he's already won anyway and could get away with it.

[LadyTevar]

Best defense against a sword is another sword.

Incorrect.
There is a video meme floating around with a martial arts sensei showing people the BEST defense against a sword is Running Away. Or, as a few martial artists I know put it: "Be where the sword isn't."

That said, the other part you're incorrect about:
Using a sword to block a sword means your sword is now unable to strike, because as soon as you switch from blocking to attacking his sword is also free. A shield blocks and allows you to strike with your weapon at the same time.

[Simon_Jester]

True, but when the weapon in question is your bare hand, and you're punching a Space Marine, you have a problem even if you're Cap.

[Zixinus]

The best defense against a sword or any melee weapon is a shield. That is why it has been used in almost every warring culture on the globe: it is a weapon against the enemy's weapon. It is designed to be hit the thing you do not want to be hit by. You can occupy the enemy's sword-hand with it and create an opening for whatever weapon you have (there is a good field demonstration explaining basic principles this, including the rotating door principle a bit later on, I don't have time to find the right bit). Even if you don't have a weapon, you can still just rush down a swordsman's arm, occupy it and hit him in the face.

Using a shield does not pin you to one place, it is not a mobile wall you hide behind. With a shield you don't want to absorb melee attacks (as it is often depicted, IIRC done so in the movies), you want to direct them away from you, to make them glance off of te shield (hence why shields were oval and smooth) which requires less energy than absorbing them. Of course the exception is for projectiles but not for melee attacks. In any attack the Captain makes, the shield's role should be to block the Astarte's weapon and create an opening for the Captain's own weapon. Using the shield offensive deprives him of this advantage. Shield throws will depend on how sharp the shield is and whether the Astartes would simply bat it away or even capture it.

How this would work in a situation where one opponent is roughly twice as tall and masses much more than the other, is hard to say. Height, mass and reach can overcome the protection. Realistically, both combatants are going to arm themselves as soon as possible or enter the fight armed, even if with environmental debris like pipes or tree-branches. If this is to the death, than any sharp object will be grabbed. The Captain wants to avoid being grabbed by the larger, trained enemy and instead target the head, the eyes especially. Space marines will not bleed out, so cutting arteries will only slightly weaken them. Going for their mayor organs inside the ribs is also ill-advised because their ribcage is fused together and the bones reinforced, plus the extra flesh in the way. I do not recall the Captain having a similar advantage.

Which comes down to weapons. The Captain can just shoot the Astartes, who will have to drop eventually either because of cumulative damage or because of because a bullet manage to hit something vital. If the Astartes managed to arm himself with a firearm, then the Captain can hide behind his indestructible shield or just cover. The Astartes is bigger and thus has a harder time to cover or hide.

I would imagine that the best bet make is rushing down the Astartes with something like a long dagger or spear, going for eyes (the only unprotected mayor opening) while the Astartes underestimates the Captain's capability. Astartes are used to fighting in armor, which he is not in this case. The Captain will want to avoid grappling and generally stay out of reach. Once the Astartes gets a full measure of the Captain's fighting ability, odds shift towards the Astarte's favor. Of course, the Astartes will have to deal with anyone interfering with the fight or distracting him, something the Captain is less likely to be afraid of. If a sheriff oversees the fight and the Captain is down, they'll shoot the Astartes. Any other authority is likely to side with him.

He's so strong though a stick point might break off, if while wounding him, in manners it would not against a normal human. Human muscle does work like armor afterall, it's ability to preemptively tense up with strength and training being the only reason people can absorb the body and limb hits they do in the first place. When we start getting into absurdo strength this is actually relevant.

Yes, but it makes assumptions about the muscles and asks the question: does super-strength muscle become harder than stone or metal? Because then you are assuming partial invulnerability here. In either case, which muscle would be stronger and thus offer such protection: the Captain's or the Astartes'? Until we have some scrap or lore on each to give an idea, I'm going to assume that the muscles act mostly like known muscles and are made of flesh.

The ability to tense up muscles is a good defense against kinetic impacts like punches, yes. But against a knife, flesh is flesh and will be cut. The Astartes has an advantage here: he simply has more flesh that needs to be worked trough, sheer thickness offering protection.

As for the stick, it can brake off but it still leaves a stick lodged into the body that will cause bleeding and also brake muscle: brake muscles supporting the body and the body collapses.


Here's a question about the characters involved: what are the odds that the Astartes and the Captain would start talking? That the Astartes would give mercy to the formidable human that is clearly not influenced by the Chaos gods? That the Captain would hear the Astarte's warcries about the Emperor (assuming the Astartes would be talking in English and if not, then that would be suspicious to the Captain) and ask him about it, because usually Hydra's plans don't usually involve an emperor. The Captain would be interested in capturing the Astartes alive if the opportunity presents itself, to learn about Hydra's recent plans. The Astartes will fight whoever opposes him but will likely want to return home to its chapter to fight the Imperium's war, not get bogged down on some forgotten world's petty squabbles.

[Rogue 9]

Best defense against a sword is another sword.

Incorrect.
There is a video meme floating around with a martial arts sensei showing people the BEST defense against a sword is Running Away. Or, as a few martial artists I know put it: "Be where the sword isn't."

That said, the other part you're incorrect about:
Using a sword to block a sword means your sword is now unable to strike, because as soon as you switch from blocking to attacking his sword is also free. A shield blocks and allows you to strike with your weapon at the same time.

That's not true at all; thrust mechanics work on angles. If his weapon is against yours in such a manner that if they come together yours is pointed at him while his is pointed over your shoulder, and you thrust, you win. Most of rapier fencing is trying to make that happen to the other guy and keep it from happening to you, but it also comes into play in earlier sword styles; this is extensively illustrated in the plates of Tower Manuscript I.33, for instance.

[Simon_Jester]

I suspect most of Tev's background practice/knowledge is in the more general context of swords that rely mainly on the edge.

That said, since both parties here will be armed at most with improvised weapons (Cap doesn't carry any and the Marine doesn't have any of his usual arsenal), and since Cap won't even be trying to fence (he favors a rather acrobatic style of combat, batting aside and blocking attacks with his shield and getting up close to deliver punches), it's kind of beside the point how they'd behave in a fencing salle.

[Rogue 9]

I'm not talking about foils or a fencing salle exclusively (in fact I've never held the former or stood on the latter), but principles that apply to any long object with a point on the end. A spear duel would work in a very similar fashion; what I'm getting at is that attack and defense with a pointed weapon are not mutually exclusive. At any rate, the whole tangent is beside the point, since Cap doesn't have a sword to go with his shield in the first place; I was just responding to Tevar.

[Kojiro]

I think people may be underestimating the durability of Cap. Look at some of the drops he's made. In TWS he literally jumps out a plane without a parachute. Sure he's over water but at a certain height that's still a pretty fair impact. He also jumps from the elevator, which Sitwell tells is deploying teams to- on the twenty fifth floor. This does little but appear to wind him momentarily. It should also be noted here he uses the shield to slice through the elevators cables with a single swipe. I'm not sure what those cables are made of but I'd wager they're pretty tough. Certainly tougher than astartes flesh. Later on we see him make this jump:

Which is onto a solid deck and he just rolls with it. Basically it seems like terminal velocity isn't so terminal for cap. But I think the real takeaway is what he does to those cables with the shield.
And let's not forget this from Civil War:

That first beam is bent because he kicked Spiderman into it. He literally kicked him so hard it bent the steel. Then he buckles the other one with a throw of the shield. That's a tremendous amount of force Cap is putting out. I know the astartes is tough but even they have limits.

Unless the astartes can deliver a quick lethal blow with an edged weapon I think Cap has this. I think he's the physically superior combatant.

[bilateralrope]

And for that matter even which Chapter will make a difference. Space Wolves or Blood Angels (or successors) are more interested in hand to hand than, say, Ultramarines or Imperial Fists. Raven Guard will be sneaky as all hell and if there is enough terrain and/or cover might just hide and ambush Cap, or wait till Rogers falls asleep or something.

Finally, if it's an Iron Hands Marine he should have the typical, erm, Iron Hands bionic/augmented hands, which would make his punches even more dangerous, perhaps tot he point of damaging Cap's shield like Stark or Bucky manage in Civil War.

Then there is the acid spit that a lot of chapters have. Something that has been deadly in every novel where a space marine gets someone in the face with it.

The Astartes have a bit of an advantage that there is more meat to get trough to get his vital organs.

And they have an extra heart and lung compared to a normal human.

[Simon_Jester]

Regarding Cap's physical performance... a distinct point. One tends to underestimate just how powerful he really is, because Chris Evans does a pretty good job of portraying him as, well, not Superman. He can make mistakes. Bullets can wound or kill him without too much trouble. Pull a knife on him, and he takes you pretty damn seriously (for the comically short time it takes him to disarm you).

But at the same time... He went toe to toe with an Iron Man suit. A damaged Iron Man suit, but still. He can in fact punch people into steel structures hard enough to deform the steel- even if those are hollow girders, still. And so on.

[NeoGoomba]

Based on how Cap's abilities and skills have organically evolved throughout his movies, I would love to see a rematch of him vs. Loki. Even as "kinda strong boxer dude" Cap was able to rock Loki a few times. Now that he is a hurricane of pain, I wonder how he'd fare.

I also wonder if Cap's size would be an advantage against the Astartes when it comes to actually punching him? He'd be applying an incredible amount of force to a relatively small location on the marine's body. Would he just be punching fist-sized holes in the marine if he went all out with his Iron Man-smashing fists?

[Kojiro]

I actually don't think Cap would much hurt Loki. Asgardians (and frost giants) are absurdly tough. For all of Cap's blows he didn't really phase Loki, just knocked him around a bit. Consider Loki is zooming around on that speeder. It blows up because an explosive arrow detonates inches from his face. No guarantee it's the same arrow, but we also see Clint use explosive arrows to destroy bunkers in AoU. Anyway, that happens, then he impacts the marble floor. So now he's had an explosion go off in his face and slammed into the ground at, let's say conservatively, 50kmph. This doesn't phase him, he jumps right back to his feet. At that moment the fucking Hulk charges through and double punches him in the chest. He goes flying backwards so hard he leaves an impact crack in the stone wall. But is he done? Fuck no, he's now actually mad. Again he jumps up to his feet to lecture Hulk and... Well we see where that goes but honestly the fact he was still conscious after that- and climbing to his feet another 20 minutes later- indicate Loki is one tough fucker. Much as I love Cap, I doubt he could bring the pain on that level. I'm pretty sure Thor and Hulk are in their own league, which was another reason to exclude them from Civil War (that and they'd both be on the same side- who is going to square off against them?)

And remember, Loki isn't considered physically exceptional for an Asgardian and physically weak for a Jotun.

[NeoGoomba]

You...make quite a good point haha.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. I honestly can't see Cap ever being able to deliver a Hulk-level beating, and really putting down Loki with brute force seems to take a Hulk-level beating.

[Enigma]

Yeah. I honestly can't see Cap ever being able to deliver a Hulk-level beating, and really putting down Loki with brute force seems to take a Hulk-level beating.

Not necessarily. Hulk made it look easy and it probably was. That doesn't mean one needs to be at his level. There may be others stronger than Cap but weaker than Hulk that could lay a beat down on Loki.