May rules out second referendum as she insists 'Brexit means Brexit'

[Tribble]

Nope, honestly, its not ringing any bells.

I take it that you haven't followed UK politics for the last 20 years or so? Because since the 1990s the Conservatives have been pretty consistent in their demands to hold public referendums before potentially transferring sovereignty to the EU, on the basis that its too big of a decision for just parliament and that the public need to have their say. Now there is certainly room for debate on how much they actually believed that particular narrative, but that's what they've been running on for the past 20 years and that's what got them elected in 2015. It David Cameron had drop his "in/out" referendum promise he would have been skewered, especially after his failure to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty in 2009 (though to be fair a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty would have been meaningless at that point as it was already in force.)

[madd0ct0r]

Just quote something dude, dont just keep writing at me. Show me where this argument was used by someone with a public indentity. Evidence.

[Tribble]

After doing some research I will admit I was mistaken about the Maastricht Treaty, although quite a few Conservative MPs rebelled, it was their government that put it through (I remembered that at the time a bunch of conservatives had been objecting but had forgotten it was just a bunch of rebel MPs).

In general though, the Conservatives were campaigning on holding a referendum on the basis of democratic legitimacy since 2005, though whether or not they actually wanted one is of course a different story.

Here are a couple of William Hague's speeches regarding the issue:

Shadow Foreign Secretary's speech, Blackpool 2007

William Hague (Conservative)

Location: Blackpool


The history of Britain, of trading energy, of naval prowess, of restless exploration and trusted finance, has made ours a country which always looks out to the rest of the world.

We are an island nation that is never insular, enjoying a unique combination of a special relationship with America, the countries of Europe, and, a group we must never forget, the nations of the Commonwealth. More than most nations, we have a sense of our responsibility to others...

...Our foreign policy – strong but responsible – should guide our actions as one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council. The maintenance of our seat there is in our national interest, and in the wider interests of the world. But now we have a Labour minister, Lord Malloch Brown, who believes our seat should be given to the EU. Under a Conservative Government Foreign Office ministers were meant to represent the views of Britain to the rest of the world, not the other way round.

Yet if this Government has its way, and the new EU Treaty, which almost every EU leader admits is in all essentials nothing less than the old, rejected EU Constitution by another name, is passed into law, in certain circumstances it will be mandated that the British seat at that table must be taken by the High Representative of the European Union. The attempt to portray this treaty as fundamentally different from the EU constitution, when 240 of the 250 provisions are exactly the same, is one of the most bare-faced and deliberate misrepresentations in the modern annals of political deceit.

The importance of it is hard to overstate: the creation of permanent President of the European Council, the appointment of an EU foreign minister in all but name, the abolition of 60 of our national vetoes, and, for the first time, provision for the abolition of almost every remaining veto without any further treaty negotiation or proper ratification by parliament.

Labour promised a referendum on the EU constitution at the last election. Without holding one on a treaty so similar, Gordon Brown has no democratic mandate to surrender the rights and powers of the people of this country. The Liberal Democrats too promised a referendum. Now, faced with the prospect, a shiver has run through them – looking in vain for a Liberal spine it could crawl up.

So, only two years after an election in which all three parties promised the voters a referendum, only the Conservative party is still true to its word. In the weeks to come we will do our utmost to explain this treaty’s significance and why its importance merits the British people’s judgement in a national referendum.

If trust in politics is to be restored, manifesto commitments must be honoured.

So let everyone be clear: a Conservative Government elected this autumn will hold a referendum on any EU treaty which emerges from the current negotiations. And I can tell you today that we will go further: the next Conservative Government will amend the 1972 European Communities Act, so that if any future government agrees any treaty that transfers further competences from Britain to the EU a national referendum before it could be ratified would be required by law.

And so, as we campaign – all of us here - for the referendum the people of our country were solemnly promised, we are fighting not only for them to have their say now but for them always to have their say; to extend their power over their own lives not just for today but permanently into the future...

empathises mine


Full speech here: http://www.britishpoliticalspeech.org/s ... speech=342

Shadow Foreign Secretary's speech, Birmingham 2008

William Hague (Conservative)

Location: Birmingham


I begin by thanking the Prime Minister of Georgia, a democracy which only two months ago came under direct military attack...

...But we are equally clear that while all this work requires will and determination, none of it requires more centralised power. We are clear too that all three political parties said at the last election that the treaty aimed at creating more centralised power, once called a constitution and now the treaty of Lisbon, would be subject to a referendum of the people of Britain.

Few events in recent years have been more revealing about the duplicitous nature of the Labour Government, or more corrosive of public trust in the entire political process, than the spectacle of Labour MPs trooping through the lobbies to deny the referendum they promised to the people, while Liberal Democrat MPs summoned up the courage to turn up and abstain.

Only the Conservative Party has remained true to the commitment to a referendum. We congratulate the people of the Irish Republic on having the courage to vote no to a treaty they did not want. In doing so they spoke for many millions across Europe who were denied any vote of their own. That result should be respected and we deplore the fact that Gordon Brown and David Miliband went ahead with British ratification despite the Irish vote, conniving in the attempt to bully the Irish into voting again. How undemocratic it would be if the people of Ireland were made to vote twice when the people of Britain have been denied the chance even to vote once.

Our position rests on the basic truth that in a democracy, lasting political institutions cannot be built without popular consent. If in the end this treaty is ratified, by all 27 nations of the EU, then clearly it would lack democratic legitimacy here in Britain, political integration would have gone too far, and we would set out at that point the consequences of that and how we would intend to proceed.

But we say to the Irish people - you are not alone, and if a Conservative Government takes office while the Lisbon Treaty remains unratified by Ireland or any other nation, we will hold the referendum the British people want and deserve and we will recommend as their government that they vote no.

And in next year’s European elections, we will campaign for that referendum and for the open, free enterprise Europe we believe in, and we will form in the next European Parliament a new group of like-minded parties to campaign for that for many years to come.

This then, is the Conservative approach, learning from the past but always preparing for the future; extending our alliances and standing by our friends; making the most of the world’s opportunities and seeking to pre-empt its great dangers; showing the patience to understand others but placing Britain, with our special links to America, Europe and Commonwealth, at the forefront of world affairs. It is an essential part of our preparation for government; a task, which now, we are ready, to take on once again.

Full Speech here: http://www.britishpoliticalspeech.org/s ... speech=343

Shadow Foreign Secretary's speech, Manchester 2009

William Hague (Conservative)

Location: Manchester


This week in Manchester we have shown we have the leader, the team and the policies to provide the next government of our country...

... Fourth, we seek the reform of older international institutions such as the United Nations and the effective use of new ones such as the G20. And we seek a European Union that acts by agreement among nations, rather than by placing its own President or Foreign Minister above any nation. Let us be clear on the reasons for our opposition to the Lisbon Treaty and our call for a referendum: the ever greater centralisation of power beyond the democratic control of the people is not in keeping with the needs of the twenty-first century; it is against the spirit of our age; it diminishes our ability to pursue our own global relationships, and in its lack of accountability and legitimacy it goes against our fundamental belief that people should only be led and governed with their consent...

Full Speech here: http://www.britishpoliticalspeech.org/s ... speech=344

Here are a couple of David Cameron's:

Leader's speech, Blackpool 2007

David Cameron (Conservative)

Location: Blackpool

Two years ago, I stood on this stage and I gave a speech - a short speech - about why I wanted to lead our Party...

...EU Treaty Referendum

And to me nothing sums this up more than the European Constitution. It’s not just that it’s an issue of trust; we put it in our manifesto that there should be a referendum. Labour put it in their manifesto that there should be a referendum, and it is one of the most blatant breaches of trust in modern politics they won’t give us that referendum.

But it actually goes further than that. In a world where we have this freedom and control, are we really saying to people that when it comes to how you are governed, how your country is run, you can’t have a say, it’s nothing to do with you? That’s wrong and that is why we will keep pushing for that referendum, campaign for a No Vote and veto that constitution...

Full Speech Here: http://www.britishpoliticalspeech.org/s ... speech=152

Leader's speech, Manchester 2009

David Cameron (Conservative)

Location: Manchester

I want to get straight to the point...

...But if there is one political institution that needs decentralisation, transparency, and accountability, it is the EU.

For the past few decades, something strange has been happening on the left of British politics. People who think of themselves as progressives have fallen in love with an institution that no one elects, no one can remove, and that hasn’t signed off its accounts for over a decade.

Indeed even to question these things is, apparently, completely beyond the pale. Well, here is a progressive reform plan for Europe.

Let’s work together on the things where the EU can really help, like combating climate change, fighting global poverty and spreading free and fair trade.

But let’s return to democratic and accountable politics the powers the EU shouldn’t have.

And if we win the election, we will have as the strongest voice for our country’s interests, the man who is leading our campaign for a referendum, the man who will be our new British Foreign Secretary: William Hague.

Full Speech here: http://www.britishpoliticalspeech.org/s ... speech=154


Oh and here is Cameron's infamous pledge to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty:


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ2n7oMcSi0[/youtube]


It seems to me based on the shadow foreign secretary's and conservative party leader's speeches that they were at the very least officially for a referendum on the basis that it was democratically mandated and required. Of course, that doesn't actually translate into them actually doing it. For example they were elected based on that campaign promise in 2009... and promptly broke it. Like the Labour Party they should have been skewered for this.

I'll admit I'm pretty busy atm, so these are the ones I know about so far. I will post their speeches on an EU referendum post-2009 when I can. IIRC they started picking up again ~2011 or so.

[Vendetta]

It's a good job Theresa May knows that Brexit means Brexit, because no fucker else appears to know what it means. Including the people officially tasked with negotiating the terms of it, who seem to get slapped down whenever they make any public statement on the subject.

[madd0ct0r]

It seems to me based on the shadow foreign secretary's and conservative party leader's speeches that they were at the very least officially for a referendum on the basis that it was democratically mandated and required. Of course, that doesn't actually translate into them actually doing it. For example they were elected based on that campaign promise in 2009... and promptly broke it. Like the Labour Party they should have been skewered for this.

I'll admit I'm pretty busy atm, so these are the ones I know about so far. I will post their speeches on an EU referendum post-2009 when I can. IIRC they started picking up again ~2011 or so.

Thankyou for following through. I concede.

[AMX]

Didn't Leave say before the referendum that they wouldn't accept a narrow loss?

No, one guy who wasn't part of the Leave campaign but was on the same side said that. Which means approximately jack shit when you're talking about half the country.

Looks like you are right - the single most prominent Leave advocate was not actually a member of the official Leave campaign.

[Tribble]

It seems to me based on the shadow foreign secretary's and conservative party leader's speeches that they were at the very least officially for a referendum on the basis that it was democratically mandated and required. Of course, that doesn't actually translate into them actually doing it. For example they were elected based on that campaign promise in 2009... and promptly broke it. Like the Labour Party they should have been skewered for this.

I'll admit I'm pretty busy atm, so these are the ones I know about so far. I will post their speeches on an EU referendum post-2009 when I can. IIRC they started picking up again ~2011 or so.

Thankyou for following through. I concede.

You're welcome. Sorry for taking so long to catch on to your request, I had assumed it was common-knowledge and you were trolling. I suppose I should have just posted the speeches from the start, but I was too lazy

It's a good job Theresa May knows that Brexit means Brexit, because no fucker else appears to know what it means. Including the people officially tasked with negotiating the terms of it, who seem to get slapped down whenever they make any public statement on the subject.

IMO the most likely scenario is that the UK stays in the EU, there just too much money involved for anyone in power to want them to leave. Expect delays until the next election, and the referendum fades into the sunset.

Next likely scenario is the UK negotiating to leave the EU but remain the EEA, as that would be seen as the "compromise" solution. In some ways there would be less sovereignty than staying in the EU (as the UK wouldn't have a vote on EU regulations that the EEA covers), and in some ways more (no EU regulations on agriculture and sifheries, the UK would be bale to establish trade agreements outside of the EU).

I highly doubt the UK will leave the EU and EEA outight and revert to WTO rules, there's just too much money involved here.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The general consensus is that May will trigger article 50 in Jan or Feb next year. Far be it for me to say that it's all well and good campaigning for Brexit, but damned if anyone will take responsibility for actually making it happen!

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I gotta say, Newzoids fucking nailed it!

[jwl]

Here are the events that lead to the UK joining the Lisbon Treaty:

Labour Party promised during the election campaign that a referendum would be held on the European Constitution
Labout Party was elected with a majority government
Labour Party cancels the referendum after the French and Dutch reject the European Constitution in their referendums
Labout Party then signs on to the Lisbon Treaty without holding a referendum, even though the Lisbon Treaty is practically identical to the European Constitution (which even the politicians at the time pointed out).


And here are the events for Brexit:

Conservative Party promised during the elction campaign that they would hold an in/out referendum on the EU, and they would abide by the results
Conservative Party is elected with a majority government
Conservative Party holds referendum, with the majority voting to leave
The Conservative government declares that "Brexit means Brexit" and that they will be following the referendum results

I find it rather hypocritical for the Remain Group to be complaining about the current government's actions when the signing of the Lisbon Treaty was totally democratically illegitimate to begin with. The Remain group is trying to have their cake and eat it too. They claim that parliament is sovereign, and that the referendum results are non-binding. Yet when the government decides to follow the referendum results, they say "you can't do that!" and demand a 2nd referendum, with the thresholds being set much higher in order to guarantee their side winning. All while conviently ignoring the Lisbon Treaty's democratic illegitimacy.

To be fair, I'm not surprised that a group dedicated to remaining in the EU would act this way, as that's precisely the kind of behaviour the EU espouses. The EU is well known for ignoring referendums and democratic results when they aren't the "right" answer in order for the "greater good" to prevail. Case in point - the French and Dutch governments also ignored their referendum results and proceeded to sign onto the Lisbon Treaty while making sure that referendums weren't held the 2nd time. And Ireland joined the Lisbon Treaty after two referendums, the 2nd one being held because they gave the "wrong" answer. EU democracy at work.

Of course there is a difference between a sovereign Parliament (read: a sovereign commons) and a sovereign government. A hard remainer I know is still talking about Parliamentary sovereignty, saying that the bit they don't like is the Conservative government bypassing the Commons.