EU: Vader Croaks. Who's next Sith?

[Anacronian]

Wouldn't it make sense if Vader died that Palpatine would make a more concerted effort to turn Luke?

In ESB and Jedi, It seemed more like Luke was Vader's pet project (with palpy's blessing of cause) but if Vader died Palpatine would probably step to the forefront in the effort to turn Luke, I mean Luke is the one he chose to replace Vader after all - so the answer is right there.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, it would, which is why to avoid that the OP says "Luke is off the table." Because the question isn't "would Luke be the Emperor's choice to replace Vader," we already know that. It's "which EU character would replace Vader if Luke was not available?"

[Ralin]

I kinda have to wonder at the logic of taking on a new apprentice at all. Yeah yeah, he canonically wanted to and he needs a Dark Side-using enforcer, but training an actual Sith who can be expected to have a chance of successfully betraying him seems like an unnecessary risk now that he rules the galaxy and has a viable plan to live forever and eventually become a god or something. Just what does someone like Vader or this Jerec guy contribute that Palpatine can't accomplish with less powerful Force-using agents accompanied by lots of stormtroopers, warships and other elite troops?

[Q99]

I kinda have to wonder at the logic of taking on a new apprentice at all. Yeah yeah, he canonically wanted to and he needs a Dark Side-using enforcer, but training an actual Sith who can be expected to have a chance of successfully betraying him seems like an unnecessary risk now that he rules the galaxy and has a viable plan to live forever and eventually become a god or something. Just what does someone like Vader or this Jerec guy contribute that Palpatine can't accomplish with less powerful Force-using agents accompanied by lots of stormtroopers, warships and other elite troops?

Well, take a look at Rebels.

You had a Jedi show up strong enough to take on the Grand Inquisitor, said Jedi had a pupil, *and* Maul showed up. I mean, heck, Kenobi's still running around...

Other dark side enforcers are useful, but in the EU we do see them often reach a hard wall when they encounter the higher level of Jedi survivors. There's multiple narratives where Jedi beat a number of darksiders, only to encounter Vader and have to, at best, heroic-sacrifice themselves to let someone else get away. To an extent, people like Inquisitors are tripwires. They can handle a lot, but one of their most important purposes is in death, demonstrating the need for Vader's arrival.


Also, a Sith apprentice is the ultimate problem solver. A lesser force user is... good, but could conceivably be taken out by a prepared foe or tricky situation. That's extraordinarily unlikely with a full Sith Lord apprentice. And sometimes you just need stuff *done*, and you can't be two places at once to handle it personally. The recent Vader comics show an example of this, where Darth Vader handled a war of some significance. Heck, a smart foe may even, against a solo Sith who has no apprentice, use pure sacrifice-plays to pull them away from their seat of power to make moves in their absence. With Vader, one cannot lure Sidious into a trap unless he willingly steps in- even a threat to the Empire itself, and thus needing a Sith's attention, can at best get Vader and not Sidious.


Though I suppose in the Empire days it's less critical. In the days with the Jedi around, and running around trying to undermine the Republic, you *really* need a second to send on other missions. With the Empire, they're 'only' a supreme trouble shooter which helps eliminate any problem big enough to threaten you.

[Elheru Aran]

One has to wonder, if he'd try cloning Vader to replace him, or even trying for another Starkiller clone.

While at the moment there's no *canon* cloning of Force users that I know of-- it's all been relegated to Legends now, I think-- in Legends canon it does seem to have been problematic. Difficult at best. Joruus C'baoth was mad; we have no idea how the Luuke clone would've turned out, and AFAIK there weren't any other Jedi clones. Certainly there were the Palpatine clones, but well, that's Palpatine.

I'm not sure if there's anything preventing them from trying it in the new canon, but I suspect that realistically, Palpatine's not interested in that precisely because it takes far too long. The Starkiller clones were unstable IIRC because Vader had the Kaminoans grow a bunch of them in a hurry after the original Starkiller was killed.

[Solauren]

Thrawn figured out how to beat clone madness in the Legends EU. In theory, you could clone Anakin to adult hood, and flash imprint on a stormtrooper template, then begin training.

In the NEW EU, I agree, more problematic.


And the Starkiller clones issues were caused by using Flash Imprints taken from Starkiller (after he died), and that he couldn't seperate himself form them. In theory, you could be able to reprogram a flash imprint. It IS just data, afterall.

[Elheru Aran]

The Thrawn cloning method worked on stormtroopers and possibly Imperial Navy personnel. We have no way of knowing whether it worked on Luuke or not, but there was definitely something off about him (not talking at all, etc). So it's an open question there, but I incline towards the 'cloning doesn't work well on Jedi/Force users' school of thought.

Either way, without ysalamiri you're not growing stable clones without at least a few years' worth of growth, clones are proven to have shorter lifespans than comparable humans due to growth acceleration, and if you don't accelerate their growth it takes too damn long. Palpatine had enough Force users running around in the Empire that he didn't particularly *need* to resort to cloning, even going by current canon. The main reason he used Vader was that Vader was the best he had and the only other proper Sith around. It would, presumably, take less time to initiate a currently available Force user into the Sith tradition versus growing a Sith from scratch.

[Solauren]

Luke speculated that C'boath had already broken Luuke.

Also, what would they have flash-printed Luuke with? It's not like they had a chance to memory-copy Luke.

[Elheru Aran]

Luke speculated that C'boath had already broken Luuke.

Also, what would they have flash-printed Luuke with? It's not like they had a chance to memory-copy Luke.

Exactly. That may have actually been the bottle-neck, Jedi and other Force users may have been resistant to having flash imprints made, either by simple refusal or by the Force/midi-chlorians/Watto's Special Sauce interfering with the imprinting process. They obviously got enough of an imprint of the original C'baoth to make the clone think *he* was the original, so that might not have been an issue.

Whatever the reason, however, Jedi/Force User clones are obviously rare to near nonexistent, and the reason may be simply as mundane as nobody but Thrawn and Palpatine thought of it.

[Solauren]

Unfortunately, we can't really know.

However, we've seen Jedi cloning, so in the old EU, a clone of Vader is at least feasible as an experiment.

[Q99]

Unfortunately, we can't really know.

However, we've seen Jedi cloning, so in the old EU, a clone of Vader is at least feasible as an experiment.

Clones often with degeneration or madness.

It's not a reliable way to carry on the lineage.

[Ralin]

The stuff about Palpatine needing Vader level skills at times to avoid being drawn out makes sense. A sacrifice ploy is more or less what he did to get Obi-wan off Coruscant when he was ready to push Anakin over the edge, after all

Clones often with degeneration or madness.

It's not a reliable way to carry on the lineage.

Well I mean. These are Sith we're talking about. Degeneration and madness are the norm for them. In some ways a completely disposable clone Vader with a limited shelf life might even be an improvement for Palpatine!

[Q99]

Well I mean. These are Sith we're talking about. Degeneration and madness are the norm for them. In some ways a completely disposable clone Vader with a limited shelf life might even be an improvement for Palpatine!

As a temporary tool, sure, but it'd be an end to the sith lineage.

The stuff about Palpatine needing Vader level skills at times to avoid being drawn out makes sense. A sacrifice ploy is more or less what he did to get Obi-wan off Coruscant when he was ready to push Anakin over the edge, after all

Right, good example.

The Conclave at Kessel comes to mind, a whole group of Jedi masters who joined together to discuss taking out the Sith in the first days of the Empire, just months after RotS. Vader went and *barely* survived, thanks to Trooper backup, when they were caught somewhat by surprise and uncoordinated. If there was no Vader, they could've come at Sidious as a group in a situation not to his favor, and that could've gone bad. As it was, Sidious was able to send a powerful chess piece and eliminate the situation without having to distract from his building of the Empire.

Also, I think Sids hides that he's such a physically powerful individual from the public. Could be bad PR to personally handle some things...

[Ralin]

As a temporary tool, sure, but it'd be an end to the sith lineage.

I wasn't being entirely serious. Though I don't think the Sith lineage is a priority for Palpatine now that he's won and intends to live forever.

Right, good example.

Hell. that's basically what the whole Clone Wars was for. Lure the Jedi out, weaken them through all the carnage and dark emotions and slaughter them separately.

[Q99]

I wasn't being entirely serious. Though I don't think the Sith lineage is a priority for Palpatine now that he's won and intends to live forever.

Not as much, but it's still some concern. And an apprentice that lasts longer means less work in the long term than having to train up replacement clones each time only for them to die out.

[Elheru Aran]

Fortunately, the Dark Empire and Clone-Palpatine saga is out the window now, and good riddance. So, weird Sith longevity techniques aside, we can probably think having an apprentice is something he never considered *not* having. Getting rid of the Jedi isn't going to do the Sith much good if they end with Palpatine, after all.

[Q99]

One thing about most Sith is they are often raised for *decades* steeped in Sith philosophy, including the need for apprenticeship. So 'never considered not having an apprentice' is likely.


Also, it helps to have someone you can gloat to about your secret stuff and have them understand the magnitude of what you've done ^^

[Simon_Jester]

Even if Palpatine plans to live forever, he clearly also plans to lead a fairly sedentary lifestyle. If the interests of the Sith order (and/or Palpatine personally) require a Dark Side force user to do anything other than sit around playing God-Emperor of Dune Coruscant... He'd need an apprentice.

[Elheru Aran]

Mind you, he may have been transitioning to a next stage of Sithiness by using a host of Force-sensitive gofers and agents-- the Hands and the Inquisitors, in addition to Vader, especially if you take Publius' writings into account (which I'm aware are not canon and are now referencing non-canon material but they still make a lot of sense). His broad intention may have been to create gradually a Dark Side-aligned administration of Force users following quasi-Sithy doctrines.

Current canon is scanty on what his intentions are/were, but obviously Priority 1 during the prequels was knocking down the Jedi. Once that was finished, he has Vader and the Inquisitors... and we don't know much else. So he may have decided there was no need to recreate the Sith as an Order or a state when he already had the Empire. Continuing the tradition of the Sith would have been adequate.

[Simon_Jester]

Mind you, he may have been transitioning to a next stage of Sithiness by using a host of Force-sensitive gofers and agents-- the Hands and the Inquisitors, in addition to Vader, especially if you take Publius' writings into account (which I'm aware are not canon and are now referencing non-canon material but they still make a lot of sense).

Yes.

My honest reaction is to keep treating the old EU as canon until contradicted by new EU material. The only real reason the old stuff was decanonized was so that they'd be free to write new content without anyone whining about how it contradicts the old stuff. In many cases, there are entire categories of stuff the Empire got up to which we know about from only a handful of old EU sources, and it's unlikely we'll see anything to replace that for 10-20 years. We might as well assume the old stuff is 'innocent until proven guilty,' as it were.

His broad intention may have been to create gradually a Dark Side-aligned administration of Force users following quasi-Sithy doctrines.

That's very reasonable, and is also in keeping with eras from Sith history when the Sith actually ran an empire. The main difference is that if you go back to those days, the Sith ran their administration of Dark Side users as a Sith religious order. Whereas Palpatine seems to have a more secular version of the same basic structure in mind (a pyramid of backstabbing apprentices).

[Q99]

An example of 'secular sith' mentality can be seen both in Canon and EU.

Grievous is basically a non-sith, who was made into a sith-in-all-but-force-power. Mindset and ability.

In the EU, the Legacy comic has the Krayt Empire, and in it we see, among others, an admiral who greatly admires the sith and mimics their tactics and ruthlessness because it's what he believes gets success. That's the kind of person Sidious wants to make.

[Lord Pounder]

One question regarding knocking off Vader. Now that the EU is dead what's the situation on Sith Force Lightning? Going by games which were very low on the old cannon scale every Tom, Dooku and Harry could hurl Lightning, but I've not seen any of the Inquisitors in Rebels use it, and Vader couldn't use it unless he's earthed first. Would any lightning mess up Vader's iron lung, or does it need to be Palpatine grade in strength?

[Elheru Aran]

One question regarding knocking off Vader. Now that the EU is dead what's the situation on Sith Force Lightning? Going by games which were very low on the old cannon scale every Tom, Dooku and Harry could hurl Lightning, but I've not seen any of the Inquisitors in Rebels use it, and Vader couldn't use it unless he's earthed first. Would any lightning mess up Vader's iron lung, or does it need to be Palpatine grade in strength?

Not enough data. As of current canon, Palpatine and Dooku are the only ones using Force lightning. I want to say the Nightsisters on Dathomir *might* have used some, but I'm not 100% on that.

[Q99]

Even if it does work, it's blockable with light saber, and Vader has also caught blaster bolts with his hand so I bet he can actively defend against low-grade stuff.