The 2016 US Election (Part III)

[Gaidin]

Six one way half dozen the other. If that keeps up, that makes it against Trump.

[Flagg]

I'm sorry that you find facts (which you even, in your roundabout way, concede are facts) so enraging.

TRR, it's not the fact that technically Bernie wasn't totally mathematically eliminated that enrages me. It is the fact that now, still, you can never let someone stating that it was impossible for Bernie to win pass without correcting. Even though no meaningful difference exists between "needs 70% in California" and "needs 101% in California".

"Mathematically impossible" was close enough to reality that it may as well have been true. Even now, you still behave rhetorically in a way that implies it's unfair to Sanders to state that he was never going to win the nomination despite his failing to do so in exactly the way predicted in February.

It's enraging because it's just a reminder that Bernie's campaign, and the knife-twisting among millenial voters of having a progressive icon legitimize decades of GOP FUD in his predictably doomed run, bears significant responsibility for how close this election is.

If he had dropped out when he's reached the point of diminishing returns, we may well be talking about a Clinton landslide and a Dem majority in both houses of Congress. Because Bernie Sanders used his time in the spotlight to "get platform concessions" that his tactics made basically symbolic, and got those concessions by doing unnecessary damage to an already somewhat damaged nominee in the year of Donald Trump, we're probably not going to get those.

You repeating "Well he could have won" after he lost in the way he was obviously going to, is just salt in that wound. You were one of the people who was defending that strategy, even after you recognized it was probably not going to happen. And so every time you go all "Feel The Bern!", I'm going to be pissed squarely at you, both personally and as a representative of the smug, know-nothing, cut off your nose to spite your face "Political Revolution".

It's not facts that piss me off. It's that you fucking morons used those facts to strengthen Trump and will never, ever admit it.

Did I mention that I want to have your babies? Because I do.

[Flagg]

I don't really care what Stas's opinion on this election is since he has no effect on it. The fact that I agree with him more often than not is no concern either, since I'm not a nihilist when it comes to this election. If I were, I'd have supported Sanders. But I totally get where Stas comes from. He doesn't have to live with the results of a Trump win to any real degree (unless Donnie Douchebag's twitter wars go nuclear) and him wanting America to kneecap itself (for a third time this millennium) makes sense.

[FireNexus]

Did I mention that I want to have your babies? Because I do.

Flagg, baby, you know how sexy I find you. But I always said one and done for kids. We can practice, though.

As far as Bernie having helped Trump, I concede that the claim can't be clearly supported by data. I still think TRR is a pain in the ass, however.

[Terralthra]

This debate has been utterly painful to watch. I think the primary loser is the viewing audience. So winner...Giant Asteroid 2016?

[Borgholio]

I stopped watching after half an hour. Why couldn't we have watched a rerun of Biden vs Ryan?

[Flagg]

Did I mention that I want to have your babies? Because I do.

Flagg, baby, you know how sexy I find you. But I always said one and done for kids. We can practice, though.

As far as Bernie having helped Trump, I concede that the claim can't be clearly supported by data. I still think TRR is a pain in the ass, however.

The fact that the primary was months ago and it's just a couple of days more than a month from the election Sanders will only participate in by casting a ballot (probably writing in himself) and he's still bringing Sanders up is just trolling at this point IMO.

[FireNexus]

Pence won the debate in the immediate "Presidential Debate" sense. But ultimately his win didn't make things better, and I think the shots Kaine got off might make Trump go a little crazy again. And frankly, if this were even a high school debate, Pence would look terrible.

[FireNexus]

Did I mention that I want to have your babies? Because I do.

Flagg, baby, you know how sexy I find you. But I always said one and done for kids. We can practice, though.

As far as Bernie having helped Trump, I concede that the claim can't be clearly supported by data. I still think TRR is a pain in the ass, however.

The fact that the primary was months ago and it's just a couple of days more than a month from the election Sanders will only participate in by casting a ballot (probably writing in himself) and he's still bringing Sanders up is just trolling at this point IMO.

To be fair to The Pain in The Ass Republic, Sanders has been hard on the trail in the past few days, finally. His participation is essentially unnecessary because most of his supporters crossed the aisle before he conceded, and the ones who didn't are a lost cause. But he has been actually involved lately.

[Knife]

All I learned is that America is a big giant fraidy cat and all debates have to cover all the small shit we're scared of.

[Ace Pace]

"I have to remind you that the question was about North Korea"

So first time I've watched a U.S. debate and I think the only person I feel sorry for is the debate moderator.

[The Romulan Republic]

I missed the debate for work-related reasons (guess I'll try to catch the replay), but came home to the lovely news that CNN's instant poll had given it narrowly to Pence.

I don't imagine it's likely to have the effect of the first Presidential debate, but I'm worried that we might lose momentum, as we settle into another stretch of only incremental gains and losses until the next debate. And I'm feeling a lot more iffy about Kaine as VP pick, if he blew his most important night of the campaign. Granted, that doesn't really say anything much about his ability to be VP.

I gather that Pence was rather unwilling to defend Trump's line, though, so we can always hope that that'll bruise the great orange man-baby's ego enough to provoke a Twitter feud with his own VP candidate.

[Patroklos]

Vice Presidential debates really don't matter. The last real moment I can remember from one that wasn't just the pundits declaring a moment so they could justify their salaries was against Quayle. He became the Vice President. Even that had nothing to do with substance.

Though given the age of both of these candidates maybe it should matter a bit more than usual...

[Flagg]

Flagg, baby, you know how sexy I find you. But I always said one and done for kids. We can practice, though.

As far as Bernie having helped Trump, I concede that the claim can't be clearly supported by data. I still think TRR is a pain in the ass, however.

The fact that the primary was months ago and it's just a couple of days more than a month from the election Sanders will only participate in by casting a ballot (probably writing in himself) and he's still bringing Sanders up is just trolling at this point IMO.

To be fair to The Pain in The Ass Republic, Sanders has been hard on the trail in the past few days, finally. His participation is essentially unnecessary because most of his supporters crossed the aisle before he conceded, and the ones who didn't are a lost cause. But he has been actually involved lately.

Unless it's as newsworthy as Adolph Ghouliani saying Trump being a tax cheat shows his genius then who cares?

[Flagg]

All I learned is that America is a big giant fraidy cat and all debates have to cover all the small shit we're scared of.

Immediately surrendering our 4th Amendment Rights and all newscasters calling brutal torture "enhanced interrogation" which is never prosecuted shows that the vast majority of Americans are fucking pussies. Oh, never mind, a cute white girl is missing, pay no attention to the dozens of unarmed black people being murdered by police.

[The Romulan Republic]

Having watched the debate, a few thoughts:

1. Pence is a good debater, and a slippery fucker. On presentation, I can see someone saying he won, even if I found both candidates a bit phoney and obnoxious at points. I thought Pence had a very strong close, from what I heard of it.

2. Some of Kaine's material did seem very rehersed, and/or artificial/manipulative.

3. On the flip side, Pence was in the wrong on so many issues, flagrantly dishonest, and as Kaine frequently pointed out, often unable to defend Trump.

4. The most striking part of the debate, I think, was the abortion discussion near the end. I did rather feel that, while he is deeply in the wrong, when Pence pleaded the value of life, he was speaking from the heart, that this was a sincere belief and not political pretence. On the flip side, I think Kaine's answer was the right one overall- in essence that its a Constitutional right, and whatever our own feelings, we have to trust women to make that choice.

His words on the conflicts between his personal beliefs and official responsibilities (on the death penalty as well as abortion), were basically the only answer someone who's a sincere Catholic and a sincere believer in secular democracy could give.

The abortion part resonated in part, I think, because it was a time where I feel like we might have gotten a look at the real men, not political sniping and canned lines.

5. Despite my feelings about religion in government, I loved Kaine nailing Trump so perfectly by quoting the Bible.

[The Romulan Republic]

Also, the bellicose posturing on both sides regarding Syria and Russia was terrifying.

Edit: It was, however, far worse from Pence.

[Patroklos]

I am pretty sure neither side said anything about attacking Russia, but rather bombing Assad. Bombing Assad is something the current administration continues to insist is still on the table. The interesting bit is that Trump has never mentioned bombing Assad, only ISIS, before this. So either the recent offensives in Aleppo have changed things since the last debate and Pence is rolling out a new position, or Pence screwed up and is out of tune with the campaign. Of course we know Hillary is all about some Assad bombing from the red line episode.

Also remember that Pence was a radio host for some time, so some of his performance can be attributed to that.

[The Romulan Republic]

And how are they going to enforce a no-fly zone in Syria without firing on Russian planes?

For that matter, does Pence really think firing on Assad wouldn't likely end up involving Russian forces?

[Patroklos]

What does a no fly zone, especially again aircraft that are not Syrian, have to do with bombing Assad? They are two completely different things. You don't need a no fly zone to run in a few sorties or cruise missiles.

There really aren't that many Russians in Syria, and almost none of them are ground troops. There are plenty of targets, I dare say 99.99% of them, that are Russian free. And no, Russia wouldn't do jack shit to us for bombing Assad, just like we are not doing jack shit to them for bombing our proxies.

[The Romulan Republic]

Don't be dishonest.

You claimed that neither side said anything about attacking Russia. I addressed that with an example of something they both supported (the no-fly zone) that might lead to firing on Russian forces, which, yes, has nothing to do with bombing Assad because its a different subject. Funny how I never said otherwise. It was you who claimed that they were only talking about bombing Assad. And then when I bring up an example that could involve engaging Russia, you say that its got nothing to do with bombing Assad? Well yes. That's kind of my point.

[Flagg]

Having watched the debate, a few thoughts:

1. Pence is a good debater, and a slippery fucker. On presentation, I can see someone saying he won, even if I found both candidates a bit phoney and obnoxious at points. I thought Pence had a very strong close, from what I heard of it.

2. Some of Kaine's material did seem very rehersed, and/or artificial/manipulative.

3. On the flip side, Pence was in the wrong on so many issues, flagrantly dishonest, and as Kaine frequently pointed out, often unable to defend Trump.

4. The most striking part of the debate, I think, was the abortion discussion near the end. I did rather feel that, while he is deeply in the wrong, when Pence pleaded the value of life, he was speaking from the heart, that this was a sincere belief and not political pretence. On the flip side, I think Kaine's answer was the right one overall- in essence that its a Constitutional right, and whatever our own feelings, we have to trust women to make that choice.

His words on the conflicts between his personal beliefs and official responsibilities (on the death penalty as well as abortion), were basically the only answer someone who's a sincere Catholic and a sincere believer in secular democracy could give.

The abortion part resonated in part, I think, because it was a time where I feel like we might have gotten a look at the real men, not political sniping and canned lines.

5. Despite my feelings about religion in government, I loved Kaine nailing Trump so perfectly by quoting the Bible.

So what if Pence was "speaking from the heart" about abortion? Hitler and Himmler spoke from the heart about killing every Jew, Atheist, Communist, and various "untermenshen" but it sure as fuck didn't make them somehow better human beings or any less ignorant and odious.

[The Romulan Republic]

As I said, he is very, very in the wrong. As I said, Kaine's answer was the correct one for a man of an anti-abortion faith serving in the government of a secular democracy.

But I found it a memorable moment because we got, I felt, a look at what the two men really feel, as opposed to canned lines or political jabs.

I didn't say that what we saw was necessarily good.

[Flagg]

As I said, he is very, very in the wrong. As I said, Kaine's answer was the correct one for a man of an anti-abortion faith serving in the government of a secular democracy.

But I found it a memorable moment because we got, I felt, a look at what the two men really feel, as opposed to canned lines or political jabs.

I didn't say that what we saw was necessarily good.

Who gives a fuck? I mean I know the 1st Amendment is mostly for show when it comes to religion in politics, but I don't give a fuck about how they felt when Jesus touched their butthole. The very fact that their stupid belief in the Abrahamite sky pixie was brought up at all shows how fucked up this country is deep in its bones. If anything Pence should be lambasted for wanting the government to have more control over women's bodies than it does over the chemicals oil companies use for fracking.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm not sure why you're so worked up about this. Its not like I said that I agreed with Pence. Hell, I agree that he should be lambasted for his abortion policy.