John Oliver on police accountability

[Thanas]

A good argument IMO.

[JI_Joe84]

I love john oliver. Its great he finally got his own show.

[TheFeniX]

When the head of the FBI is telling you "I can't tell you how many people were shot by police in the U.S. last month" you can really see just how bad lack of accountability is for U.S. police.

The last two minutes are where he really drives it home. Not surprising, considering it's the summary, I just think the video is definitely worth watching all the way through.

[Aether]

I didn't like the idea that it's pathetic that children are taught their rights. I see in the video that the class looked predominately black. Although I understand why given the current climate, but these are basic rights and people *should* be aware of them regardless of color, class, or creed.

You don't even have to be a dick to exert your rights.

"Officer, am I free to go?"
"Officer, I am not legally obligated to answer that question."

[The Romulan Republic]

Yes.

Children should be educated in their rights, and their legal responsibilities.

For that matter, I'd actually be all for making an introductory law class mandatory to graduate from high school.

[Elheru Aran]

Schools are a mess to start with. They need a 'intro to real life' class as much as they need 'intro law'.

[Eternal_Freedom]

What was worrying wasn't the "Officer, am I free to go?" it was the paper on one kids desk with "Please don't shoot me!" written on it. How to interact with police officers is a good idea (and would have been more use than my schools idea of "Personal & Social Development" which was basically "drugs and booze and sex are bad, m'kay?"

[Elheru Aran]

What was worrying wasn't the "Officer, am I free to go?" it was the paper on one kids desk with "Please don't shoot me!" written on it. How to interact with police officers is a good idea (and would have been more use than my schools idea of "Personal & Social Development" which was basically "drugs and booze and sex are bad, m'kay?"

Your police officers are a lot more reasonable than ours, though...

[Eternal_Freedom]

I am very glad of that fact, but a basic rundown of such things would have been more use than the spiel we got. Then again, an explanation of council tax/income tax etc would have been more useful and more interesting.

[TheFeniX]

I didn't like the idea that it's pathetic that children are taught their rights.

I don't think OSHA and discrimination laws are pathetic for existing, what I find pathetic are the circumstances that lead to their creation. Both are good ideas to start, but if people weren't such shitters we wouldn't need them.

Besides, are you going to tailor the presentations to the kids based on race and/or poverty? I'm white, drive a nice truck, look like a dork, and dress decently but also not flashy. My general look alone puts cops at ease. The amount of shit I could get away with if I cared to is probably pretty fucking staggering. When I talk to my Hispanic friends and their interactions with police? Pfft.

Knowing his rights didn't stop my friend on leave from Iraq from being illegally asked for photo ID and his bag illegally searched on public property. He's Hispanic, the law works differently for him.

This is in the same boat and whereas I think these types of classes are good, even though I believe education should concern itself with academics, it's really just us finding something we can do. There's no class that will stop you from getting shot for answering the door with a Wii mote in hand or have police roll up on you like it's Mad Max during the Tamir Rice shooting. These are failings with police policy on escalation and force.

The only thing the average citizen can do to really protect themselves is record every millisecond of interactions with police, make them aware they are being recorded, and pray they don't smash your recording device. Although, it's possible by now there's a one-button app that records automatically to a cloud service. Once again, if you're poor and can't afford such a device: tough shit I guess.

This makes not only police much less likely to pull bullshit, but also the person being stopped since they know a recording of the event will exist.

[Aether]

Knowing his rights didn't stop my friend on leave from Iraq from being illegally asked for photo ID and his bag illegally searched on public property. He's Hispanic, the law works differently for him.

Yes, it's true that knowing your rights is not a guarantee that you will not be harassed or intimidated by the police. Even when you exert your rights, it is possible that the police officer will threaten you, "If you do not tell me why you are driving down this way, I am going to arrest you. You have to tell me." or "What are you hiding? If you do not let me search your car, I will arrest you."

Hell, it's possible that they will go as far as to place the handcuffs on you or even take you to jail. It may be thrown out eventually,but officers have to know that being threatened with arrest is intimidating and being in handcuffs is embarrassing. It's also a time waster for people who really didn't do anything wrong. So, should a person give up their rights for the fear of intimidation? Out of fear of embarrassment? Out of inconvenience?

I am a bit proponent of being cordial, exert your rights firmly but respectfully. If you still end up in jail, seek counsel to see if it was a civil rights violation and sue. It should be up to the *educated* (as in educated of one's rights and responsibilities) individual to decide that answering questions is best in that situation knowing that they are not legally obligated to do so.

This is in the same boat and whereas I think these types of classes are good, even though I believe education should concern itself with academics, it's really just us finding something we can do. There's no class that will stop you from getting shot for answering the door with a Wii mote in hand or have police roll up on you like it's Mad Max during the Tamir Rice shooting. These are failings with police policy on escalation and force.

It's been a long time since sophomore year in high school, but what about covering such topics in Civics class? It doesn't need to be a full blow class on it's own. Granted, nothing is perfect and I am certainly not saying that knowing one's rights will eliminate the trash that is happening with police accountability. But it is *absolutely sad* that many people simply do not know their basic rights.

The only thing the average citizen can do to really protect themselves is record every millisecond of interactions with police, make them aware they are being recorded, and pray they don't smash your recording device. Although, it's possible by now there's a one-button app that records automatically to a cloud service. Once again, if you're poor and can't afford such a device: tough shit I guess.

This makes not only police much less likely to pull bullshit, but also the person being stopped since they know a recording of the event will exist.

I have a dash cam; although, not necessarily for this reason. Personally, I would like a cloud service for connectivity and online editting tools. I find it far more pathetic that American citizens have lost faith in the police to the point where we need to record all of our interactions with law enforcement. Or, we have always been naive with law enforcement believing that the police are there to only protect and serve.

[Elheru Aran]

I find it far more pathetic that American citizens have lost faith in the police to the point where we need to record all of our interactions with law enforcement. Or, we have always been naive with law enforcement believing that the police are there to only protect and serve.

I think it's a bit of both, although to what degree is likely distributed along racial/social lines...

[Simon_Jester]

Schools are a mess to start with. They need a 'intro to real life' class as much as they need 'intro law'.

Honestly, they need an "introduction to basic logic" class in the middle school curriculum, followed by a year-long "intro to real life" class at the high school level, of which an "intro to law" class should be a quarter-long module. Maybe a bit more than a quarter.

I'd love it if we took kids aside when they were twelve and spent a year teaching them to ask "how do I know what I think I know" and "question your assumptions" and so on.

Part of the problem we're having in modern high schools is that in terms of mental discipline and reasoning skills, the students are a complete mess. For many students, there's a crippling lack of ability to explain anything, or understand the difference between explaining things and asserting things. This contributes to a failure to appreciate that things happen for reasons, which in turn undermines education in language, social studies, science, mathematics, and practical life.

[Thanas]

The school form is a lot to blame for this, when I spent one year in a US HS the differences in teaching methods were staggering. There was very little discusssion, a lot of memorizing and few logical thought experiments.

EDIT: The problem wasn't the teachers, just the subjects and the curriculum. Of the teachers I met most of them were very intelligent, approachable and dedicated. Certainly more easygoing than the stiff respect-demanding german ones. But the curriculum wasn't that good. It did not help us to memorize every american writer between the 1700s and 1900s in American lit if most people could not write for themselves at the end of the term.

[The Romulan Republic]

The school form is a lot to blame for this, when I spent one year in a US HS the differences in teaching methods were staggering. There was very little discusssion, a lot of memorizing and few logical thought experiments.

EDIT: The problem wasn't the teachers, just the subjects and the curriculum. Of the teachers I met most of them were very intelligent, approachable and dedicated. Certainly more easygoing than the stiff respect-demanding german ones. But the curriculum wasn't that good. It did not help us to memorize every american writer between the 1700s and 1900s in American lit if most people could not write for themselves at the end of the term.

One of the major criticisms I've heard of US schooling in recent years is that their is an overemphasis on teaching people to pass the tests, in part since school funding is partly tied to test results. John Oliver did another video on this subject, actually, which was quite good.

[TheFeniX]

I am a bit proponent of being cordial, exert your rights firmly but respectfully. If you still end up in jail, seek counsel to see if it was a civil rights violation and sue. It should be up to the *educated* (as in educated of one's rights and responsibilities) individual to decide that answering questions is best in that situation knowing that they are not legally obligated to do so.

That's my big problem with U.S. police: provided he doesn't just lie his ass off (no bodycams), if they fuck up, best you can hope for is scoring shitloads of taxpayers money through suing and the cop might get fired (or resign) and get hired on by the county across the road.

It's been a long time since sophomore year in high school, but what about covering such topics in Civics class? It doesn't need to be a full blow class on it's own. Granted, nothing is perfect and I am certainly not saying that knowing one's rights will eliminate the trash that is happening with police accountability. But it is *absolutely sad* that many people simply do not know their basic rights.

I think what's sad is you have to know your rights at all. I know mine, my parents were big on it. But cops and prosecutors hold all the cards anyways, so even if you know you're rights, they might just "disappear" you long enough you finally break down and sign whatever they put in front of you. This should lead to jail-time on part of authorities, instead it's "basic procedure." It's not even a fight you can realistically win against a system with near-infinite resources. Just pray they don't want to crush you. Or pray they don't read the address wrong on their "who we fucking tonight" list and crush you just to CYA.

I find it far more pathetic that American citizens have lost faith in the police to the point where we need to record all of our interactions with law enforcement. Or, we have always been naive with law enforcement believing that the police are there to only protect and serve.

There has never been a time in U.S. history that I know of where police have had anywhere near the accountability they should have. If anything, this is the point where they have the MOST accountability. Compare to earlier points in history where "kicking the shit" out of suspects was par for the course and confessions obtained this way were totally legal or brushed off as "he fell... 6 times, into my fist, while in lock-up. None of my officers touched him." Jesus, just look into the history of the LAPD alone. At least we have info there. Record keeping in County enforcement has been non-existent forever. One can only imagine the number of bodies they've accumulated under such a system.

One of the major criticisms I've heard of US schooling in recent years is that their is an overemphasis on teaching people to pass the tests, in part since school funding is partly tied to test results. John Oliver did another video on this subject, actually, which was quite good.

When I was in school, you had your academic classes. These kids were required to memorize and regurgitate. In advanced and Advanced Placement classes, kids were required to make inferences from knowledge learned. My wife now teaches in the district I went to. Her AP classes (the highest of the high, some count for college credit): they memorize and upchuck.

No Child Left Behind is the scourge of actual learning. My wife has seniors in her AP classes who can not only NOT make basic inferences from information learned, but even get frustrated why they are asked to do so. EDIT: When I was in school, you had to FIGHT to get into AP classes and they'd boot you the second your grades dropped under a B. Now? Her kids are failing stupid shit over and over and they keep just dumping EVEN MORE kids into her class to bolster scores. If the math still holds true, AP classes count for 1.25 of a normal class for their records. /EDIT

NCLB has always been this zombie kicking around politics, until GW made it his one big push (before 9/11) as it was his only real victory on his way to being a lame duck. We are now reaping the rotten fruit of that bullshit here 15 years later. Kids are taught from Kindergarten to pass a test, not actually fucking learn anything.

But hey, they still memorize the balcony scene from Romeo and Juliet, so there's that.