A Theory on Starfleeet Organization and "Evil Admirals"

[Knife]

So somehow overthrowing the legitimate government and instituting a police state based solely on your own idea of what is right isn't evil?

Again, in our own world, it depends on how it turned out. If they fail or if they gain power and then fuck shit up, they are looked at as 'evil'. If they succeed and make things better, they are heroes and founding fathers.

People who set up nations using trickery and police state tactics tend to wind up being abusive fathers to their nations.

And those would be the bad ones.

Look, I'm not cheering on a coup d'etat. I get why the episode was put on that way, but we also have years of ST prior to that that would indicate that Leyton wasn't just some bozo looking for power, that the Federation was soft and would get chewed up in a war. And it did. Granted, they won, but the Federation lost hundreds of ships, thousands and thousand of lives for years. They were seriously losing the war for at least a season even with most of the Alpha Quadrant powers aligning. And horrors of horrors, Earth was raided and took a serious slap. The Federation was not ready to fight a war against a comparable threat even though by the time it started they knew it was coming. Can you imagine what it would have been like if Star Fleet hadn't gotten off it's ass the last few years and built some new ships to deter the Borg?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Hmmm...I will concede the point that Leyton can be considered evil, but I would still say that it is definitely not a clear-cut case of "he's the villain of the story, ergo he's evil."

Even then, that still only brings us to two Admirals I would count as evil and/or crazy, out of dozens across (if we include ENT) 200+ years.

[Simon_Jester]

People who set up nations using trickery and police state tactics tend to wind up being abusive fathers to their nations.

And those would be the bad ones.

I honestly can't think of any exceptions to this rule... And Leyton was all set to start ruling through these same tactics. I question his ability to raise a nation competently. Just because he's a Hard Man Making Hard Choices doesn't mean he's actually going to do a better job than the people he replaces.

Look, I'm not cheering on a coup d'etat. I get why the episode was put on that way, but we also have years of ST prior to that that would indicate that Leyton wasn't just some bozo looking for power, that the Federation was soft and would get chewed up in a war. And it did. Granted, they won, but the Federation lost hundreds of ships, thousands and thousand of lives for years. They were seriously losing the war for at least a season even with most of the Alpha Quadrant powers aligning.

If the combined forces of most of the Alpha Quadrant weren't enough to stop the Dominion, what makes you think that they would magically have become strong enough just because the Federation was ruled by a handful of oligarchical Hard Men Making Hard Decisions? Especially after Leyton got done purging the officer corps of all the officers who refused to obey a tinpot dictator AND all the officers who thought that if Leyton could take over from the Council, they should be able to take care of Leyton?

The Dominion was huge, had vast reserves of largely disposable troops, and had been a spacefaring civilization for much longer than any of the Alpha Quadrant powers. Why are we surprised that they had the strength to overcome the Federation? Maybe the cause of the Federation being on the back foot during the war was due not to Federation weakness or stupidity, but due to the Dominion being very powerful.

I mean, we KNOW what it looks like when the Federation is run by Hard Men Making Hard Decisions. It's called the Terran Empire of the mirror universe. And oddly, they aren't doing nearly as well as the Federation is. Indeed, they're getting their asses kicked by rebellions and so forth. Because it turns out their unchecked aggression and militarism doesn't give them the broad basis in science, diplomacy, and cultural knowledge to deal with problems that aren't as simple as "and then I vaporized the city from orbit, the end."

And horrors of horrors, Earth was raided and took a serious slap. The Federation was not ready to fight a war against a comparable threat even though by the time it started they knew it was coming. Can you imagine what it would have been like if Star Fleet hadn't gotten off it's ass the last few years and built some new ships to deter the Borg?

As noted, I see no reason to think Leyton would actually be able to do a better job ensuring the Federation's military preparedness through military dictatorship. Many Federation civilians and soldiers would not follow him, and he would almost inevitably have touched off a civil war. This would have the effect of weakening the physical means of Federation resistance to the Dominion, in exchange for some nebulous increase in the Federation's "resolve."

[The Romulan Republic]

Hmmm...I will concede the point that Leyton can be considered evil, but I would still say that it is definitely not a clear-cut case of "he's the villain of the story, ergo he's evil."

That's not why I consider him evil.

I consider him evil because:

a) He knowing followed an illegal course of action that was likely to lead to loss of life.

b) I think it was at least as likely that his actions would ultimately have made the Federation weaker, not stronger.

c) Most crucially, his actions directly undermined democratic principles and the rule of law, and he did what he did based on rather flimsy justification- if his disapproval of the Federation not being, to his mind, militant or decisive enough, as discussed in this thread, is sufficient grounds for armed revolt, then arguably any situation where an officer personally feels the government is mishandling a major security issue could be considered grounds for armed revolt. Which would render any sort of stable government or society untenable.

[RogueIce]

I mean, we KNOW what it looks like when the Federation is run by Hard Men Making Hard Decisions. It's called the Terran Empire of the mirror universe. And oddly, they aren't doing nearly as well as the Federation is. Indeed, they're getting their asses kicked by rebellions and so forth. Because it turns out their unchecked aggression and militarism doesn't give them the broad basis in science, diplomacy, and cultural knowledge to deal with problems that aren't as simple as "and then I vaporized the city from orbit, the end."

Weren't they doing pretty well for themselves up until Spock's reforms "softened" them, and then all that bad blood they had created bit them in the ass?

But even in DS9 once they got back on the offensive they seemed to be doing pretty good, and if we count STO in this then we know they eventually come out on top again, though as usual they're no match for the good Federation (and the Romulan Republic and sort-of allies in the Klingons at that point) when they try to start shit.

Of course they did make it up to the 31st Century as per how they won their version of the Iconian War, so...

Also they went from the post-apocalyptic ravaged Earth to dominating the Vulcans, Andorians and other races as per ENT's MU episodes by, well, attacking the Vulcans and stealing their shit. So there's that as well.

Not that I'm saying the Terran Empire is a good thing, but uh...the story seems to be telling us they were better off being asshats.

[Simon_Jester]

It is highly debatable whether the Empire was better off, whether Spock was the one accountable for its downfall, and whether they would have rebounded during the events of Deep Space Nine without intervention from extrauniversal travelers. For that matter if we only follow the shows I'm not sure they DID rebound.

If they did, I must note that hey also had a huge advantage in that in their timeline the Bajoran wormhole apparently never let the Dominion in to interfere in Alpha/Beta Quadrant affairs.

More generally, the Empire still has problems with internecine war and chaos, and certainly comes very close to total defeat at the hands of enemies. It is not a good role model. Being more like the Terran Empire would not be a reliable path to greater success for the Federation.

[FaxModem1]

If you want to count STO, you might as well count the Mirror Universe books, in which Spock intentionally destroyed the Empire, so as to create a rebellion(Memory Omega) that would destroy tyranny throughout the alpha quadrant and setting up a Galactic Commonwealth. Kira and Bashir crossing over into the Mirror universe sort of sped up their schedule a few decades by having Smiley and Mirror Sisko create a Terran Rebellion.

In which case, Emperor Spock is doing the opposite of Leyton, and overthrowing a totalitarian society to put in a democratic one, with the Galactic Commonwealth being the most progressive and free society in the Mirror Universe.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hell, if we're going to count Star Trek Online, then the Federation has much stronger military capabilities without any need for a coup or a dictator.

[Elheru Aran]

STO is an alternate and in no way canon timeline in a *game* though, so it's pretty questionable (though vaguely plausible). The fact that the Federation is fairly strong in that universe is due to being a major faction in the game and the need for a fairly balanced universe. It doesn't really have much to do with in-universe circumstances, it's a vague approximation of what the game designers thought the near-future of TNG/DS9/VOY Trek would look like.

[FTeik]

I just wanted to point out, that the AQ-powers never fought the Dominion proper. What they fought was an expeditionary force (plus local allies), that was blocked off from reinforcements and its industrial base first by a minefield and then by the Bajoran Prophets. Remember, that everyone considered the war to be over should the Dominion manage to get reinforcements into the Alpha-Quadrant.

[Simon_Jester]

STO is an alternate and in no way canon timeline in a *game* though, so it's pretty questionable (though vaguely plausible). The fact that the Federation is fairly strong in that universe is due to being a major faction in the game and the need for a fairly balanced universe. It doesn't really have much to do with in-universe circumstances, it's a vague approximation of what the game designers thought the near-future of TNG/DS9/VOY Trek would look like.

This plus the constraint that they wanted that near future to contain a massive multi-sided war, because MMORPG game dynamics require such a war.

This is why the Federation is at war with a considerably revived Klingon Empire at game start in 2409, for instance, and has been for some years. Even though the Klingons and Federation were at peace except for one brief conflict during the entire 24th century.

[Crazedwraith]

Aside from that really dumb line in Peak Performance, Starfleet is not that pacifist. There was at the time Leyton was talking the Klingon War on going. And Leyton references another war that was on-going while Sisko served under him the Tzinkzi War.

They was also the Cardassian War that seemed to be going on just before/during TNG. If the peace was really that recent in S4's The Wounded.

They don't make a big deal out of it but the Federation is hardly the unprepared pacifist weenies everyone likes to thing. They can go with their peer nations and come on top.

The Dominion win because vastly superior tech and numbers. And even there Federation know-how considerably blunted their edge before the Dominion War proper.

[Elheru Aran]

I thought the Federation wasn't actually involved with the Cardassian War, and that was more a situation like, say, Chechenya or Kosovo where they were hovering around the edges of it acting as "peacekeepers" while tsk-tsking the violence and atrocities of the Cardassians?

[Crazedwraith]

I thought the Federation wasn't actually involved with the Cardassian War, and that was more a situation like, say, Chechenya or Kosovo where they were hovering around the edges of it acting as "peacekeepers" while tsk-tsking the violence and atrocities of the Cardassians?

Not to my knowledge. It seems to have been a border war between the Federation and the Cardassians. Lots of Cardassian attacks on Federation colonies and so on. O'Brien was involved in it heavily.

Memory Alpha article

[Patroklos]

You might have gotten that impression due to hints of all sorts of paramilitary actions by militia types in and around the state on state warfare. A lot of the maquis foundation stiff seems to stem from such "unregulated" hostilities.

[Tribble]

IMO if the Dominion threat was the sole reason for Leyton's behaviour he could have simply ordered Sisko to close the wormhole. The fact that he went for a coup instead suggests that he was simply using the Dominion as a pretext for seizing power, and if they weren't around he probably would have found some other excuse.