This is an incredibly distressing result to say the least. How a jury decided to let these asshats walk is mystifying. Just carrying a gun into any one of the federal buildings they took over could get them serious time let alone all the other bullshit they did. I guess we can expect more of the same now given this bunch is getting off scot free, except for the father son pair going to trial and now probable acquittal in Nevada. That enrages me to be frank. Not only is this likely to put me or my coworkers at additional risk, it also shits all over an ideal that I put my life at risk to protect. That being the public ownership and conservation of land.A federal jury Thursday found Ammon Bundy, his brother Ryan Bundy and five co-defendants not guilty of conspiring to prevent federal employees from doing their jobs through intimidation, threat or force during the 41-day occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.
The Bundy brothers and occupiers Jeff Banta and David Fry also were found not guilty of having guns in a federal facility. Kenneth Medenbach was found not guilty of stealing government property, and a hung jury was declared on Ryan Bundy's charge of theft of FBI surveillance cameras.
"Stunning,'' said defense lawyer Lisa Ludwig, who was standby counsel for Ryan Bundy.
"I'm just thrilled,'' said Neil Wampler's attorney Lisa Maxfield.
The jury of nine women and three men returned the verdicts after five hours of deliberations on Thursday in the high-profile case that riveted the state and drew national and international attention to the federal bird sanctuary in rural eastern Oregon.
The coda to the stunning verdict, undoubtedly a significant blow to federal prosecutors, was when Ammon Bundy's lawyer Marcus Mumford argued that his client, dressed in a gray suit and white dress shirt, should be allowed to walk out of the court, a free man.
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U.S. District Judge Anna J. Brown told him that there was a U.S. Marshal's hold on him from a pending federal indictment in Nevada.
"If there's a detainer, show me,'' Mumford stood, arguing before U.S. District Judge Anna J. Brown.
Suddenly, a group of about six U.S. Marshals surrounded Mumford at his defense table and grabbed on to him.
"What are you doing?'' Mumford yelled, as he struggled and was taken down to the floor.
As deputy marshals yelled, "Stop resisting,'' the judge demanded, "Everybody out of the courtroom now!''
Mumford was taken into custody, a member of his legal team confirmed.
The five-week trial offered a rare display: Three of the seven defendants chose to represent themselves. Five of them were among the more than 80 people who took the witness stand to testify.
And one of the original 12 jurors was dismissed after a fellow juror raised concerns about his impartiality four days into an initial round of deliberations - what the judge called an "extraordinary circumstance.'' An alternate juror was summoned to begin a new round of deliberations with the remaining 11 jurors Thursday morning.
There was heightened security in and around the courthouse throughout the trial, with security officers ordered to wear bulletproof vests, and metal detectors set up outside the main trial courtroom and an overflow room with a live video feed of the proceedings.
Often, supporters knelt in prayer in the courthouse corridor before the trial began in the mornings, and some kept vigil across the street, with one fellow occupier blowing a ram's horn, or shofar, as the jury deliberated.
Updates to come.
THE CASE
Ammon Bundy, the leader of the refuge occupation, said he and a group of supporters staged the Jan. 2 takeover to further their protest of the return to federal prison of Harney County ranchers Dwight Hammond Jr. and Steven Hammond, convicted of setting fire to federal lands.
The Hammonds lived near the refuge and had served short prison terms but were ordered to return to prison to complete five-year mandatory minimum sentences.
Bundy also sought to stake claim to to the federal bird sanctuary near Burns and turn it over to locals to run for cattle grazing, mining and logging. Bundy, who had recently moved to Idaho from Arizona, is the son of Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher famous for a 2014 standoff with federal authorities over grazing rights.
He was arrested Jan. 26 along with his brother and Shawna Cox on their way to a community meeting off the refuge in John Day. Jeff Banta and David Fry were arrested Feb. 11 at the refuge, among the last four occupiers left. Kenneth Medenbach was arrested Jan. 15 and Neil Wampler was arrested in California on Feb. 11.
THE PROSECUTION
Prosecutors described the case as strikingly simple: The occupiers took control of a wildlife refuge that wasn't theirs.
They argued that the conspiracy began Nov. 5 when Ammon Bundy and ally Ryan Payne met with Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward and issued ultimatums, promising extreme civil unrest if the sheriff didn't personally stand in to protect the two local ranchers.
They presented videos of Ammon Bundy issuing a "call to arms'' and copies of his Facebook messages, in which he promised "much more than a protest.'' They played video of Ammon Bundy standing atop a snowbank in the parking lot of the Burns Safeway on Jan. 2, summoning people to take a "hard stand'' and join him at the refuge to draw attention to the plight of the Hammonds as well as other local ranchers abused by the federal government.
That day, Ryan Bundy was in the first caravan of cars that headed about 30 miles south of Burns to the refuge to clear the buildings at gunpoint in a coordinated, planned maneuver, government witnesses testified. Others followed, quickly transforming the wildlife headquarters into an armed compound that Ammon Bundy openly declared would serve as a base for patriots for years to come, prosecutors said.
With gun-toting guards working shifts at the front gate and in the watchtower, the Bundys and their devotees used refuge offices as their own, dug through federal records, opened up boxes of Native American artifacts stored in the basement of one office and dug two trenches on the property and a bunker.
FBI agents seized 22 long guns and 12 handguns from the refuge. Federal agents bagged 18,331 separate pieces of ammunition at the refuge --- 16,636 live rounds, 1,627 spent casings at the boat launch and 68 spent casings at the refuge headquarters, testimony showed.
Refuge employees testified about finding their offices trashed, files missing or scattered throughout the refuge, and fire equipment removed or missing.
Prosecutors described Ammon Bundy, Ryan Bundy and Shawna Cox as leaders of the occupation and said the others played different roles, yet all acted to disrupt refuge employees. On notes recovered from Ammon Bundy's iPhone, prosecutors displayed the breakdown in tasks he assigned supporters – Cox, for example, was in charge of "maps/titles'' and had two thumb drives with more than 5,000 federal government documents on them when police arrested her. Ryan Bundy was in charge of land "claim'' and Kenneth Medenbach, "signage.''
David Fry, they said, was the computer IT expert for the group, who helped get the occupation's message to the world, and stayed the longest, from Jan. 8 through Feb. 11, the last to surrender. Jeff Banta was shown in photos carrying a revolver during the last two weeks of the occupation.
Video captured Medenbach replacing the main refuge sign and truck decals with "Harney County Resource Center'' signs and logos and drilling a sign into the branch office door of the U.S. Bureau of Land Management that read "Closed Permanently.'' Video supported by witness testimony also showed Ryan Bundy helping remove FBI surveillance cameras on a rural road outside the refuge.
The seizure of the refuge had a substantial destabilizing effect on county residents and the 16 refuge employees who couldn't report to work during the occupation, said Assistant U.S. Attorney Ethan Knight.
THE DEFENSE
Defense lawyers argued that Ammon Bundy and the others didn't talk about trying to prevent federal workers from coming to the refuge and that they faced an unfair prosecution for a peaceful political protest.
Ammon Bundy testified that he was divinely inspired to occupy the refuge to stake claim to the property through the principle of adverse possession and return it to the people of Harney County.
He said he didn't share his idea until a backroom meeting on Jan. 2 at the Ye Olde Castle Restaurant in Burns. He acted, he said, only after local and state officials ignored his repeated requests to intervene in the case of the local ranchers returning to prison.
Ryan Bundy and Cox said they traveled to Burns on Jan. 2 to attend the march and protest in support of the Hammonds and planned to stay just a day or two.
Defendants said they had the legal right to carry firearms. Ammon Bundy testified that if the occupiers hadn't brought guns to the refuge, authorities would have quickly hauled away the protesters and ended the takeover.
They weren't intimidating or threatening, they said. Nearly a dozen defense witnesses who had visited the refuge during the occupation testified about the happy, peaceful, "even merry'' atmosphere there. The only violence that occurred, the defendants argued, was at the hands of state police and FBI agents, who fired at occupation spokesman Robert "LaVoy" Finicum's truck when he raced away from a police stop on Jan. 26. State troopers fatally shot Finicum after he emerged from the truck and reached at least three times inside his jacket, where he had a loaded 9 mm pistol, police said.
Defense lawyers said their clients didn't even think about blocking refuge workers from doing their jobs. Some of the occupiers believed the refuge was closed and that employees were on New Year's vacation.
Some of the attorneys urged jurors not to infer that their clients intended to keep federal employees out simply because government supervisors had told the workers not to report to the refuge. They also pointed out that the refuge was a "public place'' and didn't belong to the government but to the people.
During the last two weeks of the occupation, Banta and Fry left the refuge headquarters buildings and camped out on the west edge of property, afraid FBI agents would kill them. At that point, they were in a standoff with the FBI, not involved in any conspiracy to impede staff of the Fish & Wildlife Service or Bureau of Land Management, they said.
Defense lawyers also raised questions about the FBI informants at the refuge. Prosecutors confirmed there were 15 informants involved in the case, nine of whom were at the refuge – including three who were identified at the trial. Six others at the refuge remained unidentified.
Without knowing who they were or what they did during the occupation, the lawyers didn't know if any of the informants conspired with the defendants to commit any of the crimes alleged in the indictment, defense lawyers argued. They revealed that one of the informants at the refuge was a man who went by the alias "John Killman'' but was really Fabio Minoggio of Las Vegas, who was asked to oversee the shooting range at the refuge.
POTENTIAL PRISON SENTENCES
The federal conspiracy to impede charge carries a maximum sentence of six years and a $250,000 fine with no mandatory minimum.
Possessing a firearm in a federal facility carries a five-year maximum sentence with no mandatory minimum.
The maximum sentence for the theft of government property is 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine, with no mandatory minimum.
PENDING PROSECUTIONS
The seven on trial were among 26 people indicted on the conspiracy charge.
Eleven of them pleaded guilty to the conspiracy charge.
Seven others are set for trial on Feb. 14, but their cases may be affected by the verdicts. If convictions are handed down in this case, then defendants scheduled for trial in February might consider potential pleas. If there are acquittals, prosecutors may rethink going to trial on same charges against co-defendants next year.
On the eve of jury selection in this case, prosecutors agreed to dismiss the conspiracy charge against Pete Santilli, an independent broadcaster and self-described "shock jock,'' who provided live stream footage of the occupation.
NEVADA CASE
Ammon Bundy and Ryan Bundy also face prosecution in Nevada in the 2014 standoff with federal agents over the impounding of their father's cattle near Bunkerville, Nevada.
The trial there is set to start Feb. 6. The two brothers and father Cliven Bundy are among 19 indicted in Nevada. Others from the Oregon refuge occupation also indicted on federal charges in Nevada are Pete Santilli, Ryan Payne, Brian Cavalier, Blaine Cooper and Joseph O'Shaughnessy.
Payne pleaded guilty to the federal conspiracy charge in Oregon under a potential global agreement that was in the works with Nevada prosecutors, but he recently asked to withdraw the Oregon plea because no deal was reached in Nevada. Prosecutors in Portland have until Oct. 31 to respond.
Cooper entered guilty pleas in both cases. O'Shaughnessy pleaded guilty in the Oregon case, with a deal pending in Nevada. Cavalier pleaded guilty in the Oregon case.
-- Maxine Bernstein
Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
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Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
What the motherfucking fuck?
They just effectively gave the Alt. Right and militia crowd carte blanch to engage in armed intimidation and armed occupation of Federal property. Right before election day, no less.
This is a victory for treason and terrorism.
Edit: I mean, I believe, on principle, that one should respect the verdict of the courts even if it doesn't go the way you want, but I'm struggling to see how this can be justified. I mean, maybe if someone fucked up spectacularly somewhere during the investigation or something, but even then, it comes back to the same point- someone in our Justice System failed us horribly.
They just effectively gave the Alt. Right and militia crowd carte blanch to engage in armed intimidation and armed occupation of Federal property. Right before election day, no less.
This is a victory for treason and terrorism.
Edit: I mean, I believe, on principle, that one should respect the verdict of the courts even if it doesn't go the way you want, but I'm struggling to see how this can be justified. I mean, maybe if someone fucked up spectacularly somewhere during the investigation or something, but even then, it comes back to the same point- someone in our Justice System failed us horribly.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
It's a no brainer given president. You lefties should be ecstatic given your proclivity to occupy public property and prevent its functioning on a regular basis with impunity.
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Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
It had nothing to do with the evidence at all. The prosecutors did a shit job during jury selection, and said jury nullified.This is an incredibly distressing result to say the least. How a jury decided to let these asshats walk is mystifying. Just carrying a gun into any one of the federal buildings they took over could get them serious time let alone all the other bullshit they did. I guess we can expect more of the same now given this bunch is getting off scot free, except for the father son pair going to trial and now probable acquittal in Nevada. That enrages me to be frank. Not only is this likely to put me or my coworkers at additional risk, it also shits all over an ideal that I put my life at risk to protect. That being the public ownership and conservation of land.
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Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Oh look, the little apologist troll comes crawling out of his hole again, with some false equivalency about how protesting/civil disobedience without guns is the same as "protesting" with guns and threatening violence, honest.Patroklos wrote:It's a no brainer given president. You lefties should be ecstatic given your proclivity to occupy public property and prevent its functioning on a regular basis with impunity.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Go fuck yourself. Much more than occupation happened here. They drove government vehicles and equipment all over the place destroying improvements and for their own purposes such as going to the store. I guess I should just steal a public works truck the next time I need a gallon of milk eh? Or break into an office once its closed while armed and tell the people who work there its my office now. So the law really is only for oppressing minorities, got it.Patroklos wrote:It's a no brainer given president. You lefties should be ecstatic given your proclivity to occupy public property and prevent its functioning on a regular basis with impunity.
edit: For spelling.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Whelp I'm incredibly pissed off. These were criminals, criminals who blatantly showed their crimes on national tv, on the internet, fucking bragged about it. They destroyed public property, stolen property, destroyed protected Native sites, and what do they get? What the fuck does our justice system who gives rick murders probation, rapey ass swimmers next to no punishments while packing poor people of all races and minorities in particular on trumped up drug charges?
Not fucking shit. If they were black taking over a public park in some city they'd been in jail so long they'd probably fucking turn white from lack of sunlight. But not these good ol boys, these literal welfare queens who think they should get free shit from the government and respond with threats and violence when they don't get their way, you know the shit these same ass clowns probably whine about minorities doing, they get off scott fucking free. Probably get off in Nevada too. Hey maybe while they are at it they can give them Malheur so they can shit all over the Native artifacts or sell them on ebay. Might as well sell off the national parks while we are at it, clearly we don't want to protect them, might as well sell them so Ron Paul can have something to jerk his dried up dick over.
Sweet baby fucking Jesus this is incredibly stupid. In a year where a blatantly corrupt career politician is running against a racist failed businessman in a race to see how low America can sink this is probably the thing that has pissed me off the most.
Not fucking shit. If they were black taking over a public park in some city they'd been in jail so long they'd probably fucking turn white from lack of sunlight. But not these good ol boys, these literal welfare queens who think they should get free shit from the government and respond with threats and violence when they don't get their way, you know the shit these same ass clowns probably whine about minorities doing, they get off scott fucking free. Probably get off in Nevada too. Hey maybe while they are at it they can give them Malheur so they can shit all over the Native artifacts or sell them on ebay. Might as well sell off the national parks while we are at it, clearly we don't want to protect them, might as well sell them so Ron Paul can have something to jerk his dried up dick over.
Sweet baby fucking Jesus this is incredibly stupid. In a year where a blatantly corrupt career politician is running against a racist failed businessman in a race to see how low America can sink this is probably the thing that has pissed me off the most.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Your tears, mixed with you impotent outrage, are delicious.The Romulan Republic wrote:Oh look, the little apologist troll comes crawling out of his hole again, with some false equivalency about how protesting/civil disobedience without guns is the same as "protesting" with guns and threatening violence, honest.Patroklos wrote:It's a no brainer given president. You lefties should be ecstatic given your proclivity to occupy public property and prevent its functioning on a regular basis with impunity.
Btw, the prosecutions case has little to do with guns, but we are used to you knowing nothing about the things you comment on.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Learn to read. Gun charges and vehicle theft charges were included against some of the defendants along with the conspiracy charge.Patroklos wrote:Your tears, mixed with you impotent outrage, are delicious.The Romulan Republic wrote:Oh look, the little apologist troll comes crawling out of his hole again, with some false equivalency about how protesting/civil disobedience without guns is the same as "protesting" with guns and threatening violence, honest.Patroklos wrote:It's a no brainer given president. You lefties should be ecstatic given your proclivity to occupy public property and prevent its functioning on a regular basis with impunity.
Btw, the prosecutions case has little to do with guns, but we are used to you knowing nothing about the things you comment on.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Conspiracy was the meat.
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Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Yes, we know the far Right runs on hate and spite.Patroklos wrote:Your tears, mixed with you impotent outrage, are delicious.The Romulan Republic wrote:Oh look, the little apologist troll comes crawling out of his hole again, with some false equivalency about how protesting/civil disobedience without guns is the same as "protesting" with guns and threatening violence, honest.Patroklos wrote:It's a no brainer given president. You lefties should be ecstatic given your proclivity to occupy public property and prevent its functioning on a regular basis with impunity.
Liar.Btw, the prosecutions case has little to do with guns, but we are used to you knowing nothing about the things you comment on.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Oh look, the little apologist troll comes crawling out of his hole again
Yep, its totally ME that is the hateful and spiteful one...Raj Ahten wrote:
Go fuck yourself.
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Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Well, pretty much nobody likes apologists for terrorism, Patroklos. But since you're not offering much of substance to debate against, I suppose I'll just ignore you now. Insults only stay interesting for so long.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
So turns out the guys who said back then that the government should just have stormed the site and who predicted that absolutely nothing would happen to those fuckers when the government refused were right.
This is a really bad precedent to set.
This is a really bad precedent to set.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Well I tend to take threats to my personal safety pretty seriously, of which the failure to convict on this certainly is. See I work as a wildland firefighter, mostly for the Forest Service but also the Fish and Wildlife Service. Last year we did have some occupation type folks sniffing around the refuge I was working at in solidarity with what was going on in Malhuer. I don't like the idea of armed people getting carte blanche to take over my work place, as it also might give the kind of assholes who were shooting at people and blowing up bombs during the sagebrush rebellion the idea that they should return to such methods. Also I'd be fired at best and sent to the penitentiary at worst if I did what these assholes did with government property while broadcasting it on the internet.Patroklos wrote:The Romulan Republic wrote:
Oh look, the little apologist troll comes crawling out of his hole againYep, its totally ME that is the hateful and spiteful one...Raj Ahten wrote:
Go fuck yourself.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
You keep saying that, yet where exactly did I apologize? Where did I say the outcome was either bad or good? I am pretty sure I said it was both predictable and a boon for people who use similar tactics.The Romulan Republic wrote:Well, pretty much nobody likes apologists for terrorism, Patroklos. But since you're not offering much of substance to debate against, I suppose I'll just ignore you now. Insults only stay interesting for so long.
It appears your hate hardon is making you see things. Please go back to the original thread on this, where I actually did take a position on this, feel stupid when you discover what that was, and return here to apologize with hat in hand if you decide to be honest about your stupid assumptions.
The only likely difference between this us is I find the distinction between armed (vice violent) and unarmed people taking over your workplace irrelevant. I would toss them both in jail (OOPS, I did TRRs homework for him).Raj Ahten wrote: I don't like the idea of armed people getting carte blanche to take over my work place
Last edited by Patroklos on 2016-10-27 09:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
I think the government made the right call, in hindsight, not to storm them. Not only because of the immediate damage and casualties it could have caused, but because it would have allowed the far Right to make these nuts into martyrs, victims of a government crackdown and potentially victims of a massacre (and remember that for a time, their were children on the site). That could have been far worse.Thanas wrote:So turns out the guys who said back then that the government should just have stormed the site and who predicted that absolutely nothing would happen to those fuckers when the government refused were right.
This is a really bad precedent to set.
But this verdict is certainly a sign of something deeply wrong with the Justice System, or at least with how this case was handled somewhere along the line.
The problem, I'm guessing, is not so much how the incident itself was handled, but what happened afterward.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Well the militia still got their martyr with their spokesman who died going for a a gun during a traffic stop. The defendants who bothered to actually get lawyers (a few defended themselves!) should really be thankful those lawyers are good at jury selection.The Romulan Republic wrote:I think the government made the right call, in hindsight, not to storm them. Not only because of the immediate damage and casualties it could have caused, but because it would have allowed the far Right to make these nuts into martyrs, victims of a government crackdown and potentially victims of a massacre (and remember that for a time, their were children on the site). That could have been far worse.Thanas wrote:So turns out the guys who said back then that the government should just have stormed the site and who predicted that absolutely nothing would happen to those fuckers when the government refused were right.
This is a really bad precedent to set.
But this verdict is certainly a sign of something deeply wrong with the Justice System, or at least with how this case was handled somewhere along the line.
The problem, I'm guessing, is not so much how the incident itself was handled, but what happened afterward.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
While I am pissed. More then pissed really, absolutely filled with rage at this fucking retarded decision. But I still think they were correct not to storm the site. The Bundy bunch needs punished, they need locked up to the point they never see the nature they wanted to destroy every fucking again. They didn't deserve death as until the fuckface who suicide by cop they where non-violent........if for not other reason then the police holding back didn't give them a reason to be violent.Thanas wrote:So turns out the guys who said back then that the government should just have stormed the site and who predicted that absolutely nothing would happen to those fuckers when the government refused were right.
This is a really bad precedent to set.
At the very least the police didn't deserve to have to put themselves in danger to try to stop the land raping reject rednecks from crapping all over irreplaceable artifacts while playing GI Joe. They police should be commended for exercising such restraint and should be emulated by other police. Through their actions the stand-off only had one casualty who died because he was so incredibly stupid and suicidal, no innocent civilians or townsfolk were endangered, and no cops were put in harms way.
The police did their jobs and did it well. They shouldn't have their masterful job diminished because of the infuriatingly goddamn incredibly stupid as fuck actions of the prosecution and presiding judge.
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Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Most of the Bundys are still up on charges for the standoff with BLM in Nevada in 2014. They got out of this one, but they need to face another jury in a different state still.
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Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
I disagree, sitting back only allowed them to grow bolder, reinforce their defenses. FFS they still had mail delivered to them. They weren't even starved out.The Romulan Republic wrote: I think the government made the right call, in hindsight, not to storm them. Not only because of the immediate damage and casualties it could have caused, but because it would have allowed the far Right to make these nuts into martyrs, victims of a government crackdown and potentially victims of a massacre (and remember that for a time, their were children on the site). That could have been far worse.
If this had been the black panthers SWAT would have been on them in minutes.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Well I'm not sure how much the judge has to do with the verdict. If anything the judge could be seen as being hostile to the defense because they wouldn't put up with their bullshit like bringing up the fatality at the traffic stop constantly. In fact I believe she ended up having one of the defense lawyers arrested today as well for all their bleating about the extradition to Nevada.Joun_Lord wrote: The police did their jobs and did it well. They shouldn't have their masterful job diminished because of the infuriatingly goddamn incredibly stupid as fuck actions of the prosecution and presiding judge.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Sounds to me like she didn't control her courtroom. A judge should have prevented that bullshit, should have nipped it in the bud or butt or however that fucking saying goes.Raj Ahten wrote:Well I'm not sure how much the judge has to do with the verdict. If anything the judge could be seen as being hostile to the defense because they wouldn't put up with their bullshit like bringing up the fatality at the traffic stop constantly. In fact I believe she ended up having one of the defense lawyers arrested today as well for all their bleating about the extradition to Nevada.
Though I will concede this trial has unusual circumstances and I don't know all the details of the shenanigans in the court room as I wanted to keep my blood pressure from shooting through the fucking roof. But still my point stands the judge should have controlled this shit or removed themselves from the case to be replaced by some who could control these cow fuckers.
Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Did you pay no attention to the trial? The judge constantly shut down the defendants' sovereign citizen arguments and sustained some ridiculously high number which I can't remember off the top of my head of objections by the prosecution. Exactly what else do you think she should have done short of shoving the courtroom flag pole up their butts while telling them to shut up about the fringe on it?Joun_Lord wrote: Sounds to me like she didn't control her courtroom. A judge should have prevented that bullshit, should have nipped it in the bud or butt or however that fucking saying goes.
Though I will concede this trial has unusual circumstances and I don't know all the details of the shenanigans in the court room as I wanted to keep my blood pressure from shooting through the fucking roof. But still my point stands the judge should have controlled this shit or removed themselves from the case to be replaced by some who could control these cow fuckers.
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Re: Militants who seized Federal Wildlife Refuge Acquited on all charges
Them reinforcing their defences is a moot point when they were ultimately able to end the standoff with minimal bloodshed (the only fatality occurring in a clash outside their "defences").Thanas wrote:I disagree, sitting back only allowed them to grow bolder, reinforce their defenses. FFS they still had mail delivered to them. They weren't even starved out.The Romulan Republic wrote: I think the government made the right call, in hindsight, not to storm them. Not only because of the immediate damage and casualties it could have caused, but because it would have allowed the far Right to make these nuts into martyrs, victims of a government crackdown and potentially victims of a massacre (and remember that for a time, their were children on the site). That could have been far worse.
Maybe, maybe not, but either way, they'd have been wrong to do that, and I don't think one poor decision can be balanced by another.If this had been the black panthers SWAT would have been on them in minutes.
The correct response to the problem of law enforcement using excessive force is to stop using excessive force, not make sure they use excessive force every time, just to be fair.
Again, their were children on the site. Tell me why they deserved to potentially end up in bodybags for their parents' craven stupidity.
I mean, I felt like more should have been done at the time, but in hindsight, I think it was handled pretty well, at least up until it reached a court room. What came after may be an indictment of how the trial was handled, but not of how the standoff itself was handled.
If you just want your metaphorical pound of flesh from these assholes, say so. I can understand that on an emotional level, though I emphatically do not agree with it. But I'm not seeing a decisive pragmatic argument for what you propose.
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"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.