Invisible hand broken finger is healing

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madd0ct0r
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Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by madd0ct0r »

Seems since the 1980s the inviislbe hand has been stuck pointing upwards. Signs of change:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/16/upsho ... p=cur&_r=0
But in early 2015, Walmart announced it would actually pay its workers more.

That set in motion the biggest test imaginable of a basic argument that has consumed ivory-tower economists, union-hall organizers and corporate executives for years on end: What if paying workers more, training them better and offering better opportunities for advancement can actually make a company more profitable, rather than less?

It is an idea that flies in the face of the prevailing ethos on Wall Street and in many executive suites the last few decades. But there is sound economic theory behind the idea. “Efficiency wages” is the term that economists — who excel at giving complex names to obvious ideas — use for the notion that employers who pay workers more than the going rate will get more loyal, harder-working, more productive employees in return.

Walmart’s experiment holds some surprising lessons for the American economy as a whole. Productivity gains have been slow for years; could fatter paychecks reverse that? Demand for goods and services has remained stubbornly low ever since the 2008 economic crisis. If companies paid people more, would it bring out more shoppers — benefiting workers and shareholders alike?

...

An employee making more than the market rate, after all, is likely to work harder and show greater loyalty. Workers who see opportunities to get promoted have an incentive not to mess up, compared with people who feel they are in a dead-end job. A person has more incentive to work hard, even when the boss isn’t watching, when the job pays better than what you could make down the street.

Economists have found evidence of this in practice in many real-world settings. Higher pay at New Jersey police departments, for example, led to better rates of clearing cases. At the San Francisco airport, higher pay led to shorter lines for passengers. Among British home care providers, higher pay meant less oversight was needed.

What is interesting about this is that, if you look at what’s ailing the broader United States economy, it looks a lot like what you would expect if employers were, en masse, failing to understand the possibility of efficiency wages.

Employers have succeeded at holding down labor costs. The “labor share” of national income — the portion of the national economic pie that goes to workers’ pay, as opposed to corporate profits and elsewhere — has fallen. And average pay for nonmanagerial workers has grown more slowly than the overall economy.

This has coincided with disappointing results for the economy. Worker productivity has been rising slowly for the last decade, and prime working-age Americans are staying out of the work force in droves. This implies that plenty of people don’t see jobs out there that offer sufficient pay or opportunity to make the jobs worth doing.

Individually, employers may think they are making rational decisions to pay people as little as possible. But that may be collectively shortsighted, if the unintended result is less demand for the goods and services they are all trying to sell to these same people.

Just maybe, in other words, employers across the country are pushing down labor costs like Walmart, circa 2014 — and this is one of the major culprits behind disappointing economic results since the start of the 21st century.

“The management philosophy that became popular in the 1980s that led companies to cut pay for low-wage workers, fight unions and contract out work may have been profitable for the companies that practiced it in the short run,” said Alan Krueger, a Princeton economist and leading scholar of labor markets. “But in the long run it has raised inequality, reduced aggregate consumption and hurt overall business profitability.”

If you buy that theory — and, to be clear, it is more theory than settled fact — it means that the results of the Walmart experiment matter a great deal. That implies that if large companies were to spend more to pay and train their workers, it could create gains for the economy as a whole. And it would ultimately be better for those same businesses.
...
Still, here is one other nugget the company has found. The extra wages it is paying its workers don’t all go out the door on payday, executives said. Spending at the stores by employees has risen — offering a possible metaphor for what those efficiency-wage economists argue might happen across the economy, if wages were to climb.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Broomstick »

Didn't Henry Ford figure all that out waaaaaaay back at the beginning of the 20th Century? That paying his workers enough that they could purchase what they made resulted in higher profits? Not to mention boosting the local economy in other ways.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by TheFeniX »

Broomstick wrote:Didn't Henry Ford figure all that out waaaaaaay back at the beginning of the 20th Century? That paying his workers enough that they could purchase what they made resulted in higher profits? Not to mention boosting the local economy in other ways.
And Ford didn't have the advantage of selling nearly every home convenience available. Aside from rent, you could basically spend your entire paycheck at the place you work. EDIT: WRT to workers at Walmart.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by K. A. Pital »

Short: I'll believe it (a reversal of the wage squeeze) when I see it.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Highlord Laan »

Taking the optimistic stance implies that one believes our mighty corporate overlords give a single shit about their workers, their general well being, or their lives. Why should they bother paying more when the working class economy is right where the ivory tower robber barons want it? Far easier to burn out or just plain fire anyone seeking better pay and replace them with one of the countless masses desperate for any work at all. If you disagree you're a filthy socialist eurocommie that probably votes Democrat because you're too lazy to bootstrap yourself in the "land of opportunity" and live a properly murrican dream.

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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by madd0ct0r »

I suspect squeezing wages when everyone else pays high gives you an edge. I suspect paying high when everyone else is squeezing might too.
The difference is that wamart is so large and ubiquitous any decision they make does shape local wages in a million places
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Elheru Aran »

I figured something along these lines was inevitable if the corporations don't care to be supporting a welfare state by their taxes. It only takes so long squeezing your workers before you figure out that if you don't pay them enough, they can't survive, and the supply of workers *is* finite.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

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TheFeniX wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Didn't Henry Ford figure all that out waaaaaaay back at the beginning of the 20th Century? That paying his workers enough that they could purchase what they made resulted in higher profits? Not to mention boosting the local economy in other ways.
And Ford didn't have the advantage of selling nearly every home convenience available. Aside from rent, you could basically spend your entire paycheck at the place you work. EDIT: WRT to workers at Walmart.
You can do that at my place of employment, too. Food, clothing, cleaning supplies, gas for your car... The only reason I shop at Aldi is because they actually do beat food prices on several basics, but yeah, I really don't need to shop anywhere but where I work.
K. A. Pital wrote:Short: I'll believe it (a reversal of the wage squeeze) when I see it.
Aside from paying better than Wal-Mart to begin with, everyone at my place of employment got a raise last month.

Which doesn't prove anything, of course, but I try to remain optimistic.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Elheru Aran »

Broomstick wrote: Aside from paying better than Wal-Mart to begin with, everyone at my place of employment got a raise last month.
Out of curiosity, is there any reason that this raise wouldn't be a typical annual or biannual raise? At my work everybody gets a 'raise' about twice yearly (provided they get a good performance review). I mean, it's usually some piddling amount like ten or fifteen cents, but nonetheless. As far as I know it *might* be tied into the store's performance, but I can't say for sure.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Broomstick »

At my place of employment you get a raise for every 700 hours you are employed by them (up to a ceiling based upon your position). You get a quarterly bonus based on the store's performance.

This raise was outside of those regular events AND raised the ceiling caps for all positions. So yes, it's an increase across the board.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Elheru Aran »

There you go then, that's a pretty legit indication that the store's doing well. Our bonuses are biannual but also based on performance. Usually the winter/spring bonus that's paid out sometime in February or March is the best one thanks to Christmas season... but we had a very good spring season this year, so.

Overall indications are that the economy in the US at least is improving, but if pay rates don't keep pace, it'll not rise that quickly.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Ford had some ideas about higher wages and prosperity, but the main reason he did the $5/day in the 1910s was because his Ford plants had an enormous turnover rate.

As for Walmart, it's good news . . . sort of. Good for the workers, and Walmart did benefit from higher ratings on customer service, but it didn't seem to have led to higher profitability from that spending.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Elheru Aran »

Walmart is in a bit of a peculiar situation.

On the one hand, it's the biggest retailer in the US (I think), one of the biggest employers, and sells so many things at a low enough price that the vast majority of the population can afford it. And they *do* shop there, in large enough numbers that the company has a comfortable profit margin (as far as I know).

On the other... it treats its employees like shit, its products are almost all made outside the US and are frequently used as a byword for 'low quality'-- and frequently its customers are associated with said lack of quality, which results in people with more money not deigning to spend it there out of a desire to avoid association with the store/corporation. Even the poorer people will shop elsewhere on the rare occasion that prices can be found lower than Walmart, such as Aldi for groceries.

Sooner or later, one will become more prominent than the other. When and in what way, might be the question.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Zaune »

Highlord Laan wrote:Taking the optimistic stance implies that one believes our mighty corporate overlords give a single shit about their workers, their general well being, or their lives. Why should they bother paying more when the working class economy is right where the ivory tower robber barons want it? Far easier to burn out or just plain fire anyone seeking better pay and replace them with one of the countless masses desperate for any work at all. If you disagree you're a filthy socialist eurocommie that probably votes Democrat because you're too lazy to bootstrap yourself in the "land of opportunity" and live a properly murrican dream.

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On the other hand, those kinds of business practices have consequences: Even Walmart has found out that they can only push their union-suppression tactics so far before people start going to the Department of Labour or the media. Not to mention the fact that if you get a reputation for treating your employees like dirt, nobody will apply for a job with you unless they've been rejected by every other employer in town. And who wants to buy from a store staffed by addicts, ex-cons and the functionally illiterate?
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

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One of the big reasons why paying your workers more helps with productivity isn't even that you can retain better talent. It's that workers with more money are more able to work efficiently. They can maintain their cars, so they don't have as many problems getting to work on time. They eat better, more regularly and nutritiously, so they don't get exhausted or zoned out at work so much. They're less stressed out, so they have better memories, concentrate better, communicate with other people better, and generally perform tasks more reliably and competently. They can afford to purchase any little ancillaries that make their job easier and let them do it better, but which are not supplied by their employer. Maybe they can stop working two jobs, which means they're more available and focused and likely to actually feel

So even if you have the same people working for you, and just pay them another few dollars an hour, you may get significant improvement out of your workforce. Because suddenly a bunch of their problems have gone away or gotten less serious.
Highlord Laan wrote:Taking the optimistic stance implies that one believes our mighty corporate overlords give a single shit about their workers, their general well being, or their lives. Why should they bother paying more when the working class economy is right where the ivory tower robber barons want it? Far easier to burn out or just plain fire anyone seeking better pay and replace them with one of the countless masses desperate for any work at all. If you disagree you're a filthy socialist eurocommie that probably votes Democrat because you're too lazy to bootstrap yourself in the "land of opportunity" and live a properly murrican dream.

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One is by ideology. The other is by the desire to make the gigantic numbers in their bank accounts (or other analogous storehouses of wealth) go up.

Never underestimate the power of the second motive to make them ignore the first.

If paying better wages actually makes their profits increase, some executives will in fact pay better wages. Because then the working class economy is NOT right where they want it. It's in a place where they are making less money than they theoretically could be. And they care about that, because they're not just machines for screwing other people; they are (greedy) human beings with human motives (greedy ones).
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by His Divine Shadow »

I suspect this is more a question of self-preservation than anything else. After all, the Hamptons is not a very defensible position.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

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TheFeniX wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Didn't Henry Ford figure all that out waaaaaaay back at the beginning of the 20th Century? That paying his workers enough that they could purchase what they made resulted in higher profits? Not to mention boosting the local economy in other ways.
And Ford didn't have the advantage of selling nearly every home convenience available. Aside from rent, you could basically spend your entire paycheck at the place you work. EDIT: WRT to workers at Walmart.

I believe the exact quote is

"The secret to success in business is to pay the best wages you can, while selling your product at a price everyone can afford."
That would imply not only your own workers being able to buy it, but everyone else (who has an income).
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well.

Even if Walmart workers spent all their money at Walmart, they still wouldn't recoup the expenses (especially if they offer employee discounts). And in reality Walmart workers have other expenses (car maintenance, rent).

But the basic point that you want to pay your workforce enough to be on the same level financially as your intended customers... there is definitely something to that, at least for mass market stores. The average customer doesn't want to deal with below-average staff.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

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Simon_Jester wrote:One of the big reasons why paying your workers more helps with productivity isn't even that you can retain better talent. It's that workers with more money are more able to work efficiently. They can maintain their cars, so they don't have as many problems getting to work on time. They eat better, more regularly and nutritiously, so they don't get exhausted or zoned out at work so much. They're less stressed out, so they have better memories, concentrate better, communicate with other people better, and generally perform tasks more reliably and competently. They can afford to purchase any little ancillaries that make their job easier and let them do it better, but which are not supplied by their employer. Maybe they can stop working two jobs, which means they're more available and focused and likely to actually feel

So even if you have the same people working for you, and just pay them another few dollars an hour, you may get significant improvement out of your workforce. Because suddenly a bunch of their problems have gone away or gotten less serious.
.
The thing is, productivity gains may not be worth it from the boss point of view. Paying 100 dollars more to get 10 dollars more of sales hurt the bottomline, even if quality of service improve and you get long term benefits such as brand recognition and etc..
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Simon_Jester »

[blinks]

Oh, right, this thread.

Um... if your point is that increased pay doesn't always result in increased sales and a better bottomline, you are obviously, trivially correct. Clearly retail and fast food companies would go out of business if they tried to pay their workers $100 an hour, no matter how motivated and competent a workforce that attracted.

The point is simply that the optimum point for worker efficiency and a healthy bottom line often does NOT lie at the minimum "starvation wages" level, just as it NEVER lies at the maximum "super-high-salary" level.

If you were to graph profit against wages, for most industries the graph would start at (0,0) with zero profit if you don't pay your employees at all. Then it would start rising as you pay employees more, then it would reach a peak, then it would start to fall again as you hit diminishing returns.

My argument is that it is very easy for corporations to drift over to the left side of that graph. This can happen simply by refusing to pay workers more, while overall costs of living rise.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by bilateralrope »

Simon_Jester wrote:The point is simply that the optimum point for worker efficiency and a healthy bottom line often does NOT lie at the minimum "starvation wages" level, just as it NEVER lies at the maximum "super-high-salary" level.
True. But I expect that there are bosses who think that it lies at/below minimum wage even when it doesn't. Probably because they see the short term cost of increased wages, but not the longer term benefits.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Elheru Aran »

bilateralrope wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:The point is simply that the optimum point for worker efficiency and a healthy bottom line often does NOT lie at the minimum "starvation wages" level, just as it NEVER lies at the maximum "super-high-salary" level.
True. But I expect that there are bosses who think that it lies at/below minimum wage even when it doesn't. Probably because they see the short term cost of increased wages, but not the longer term benefits.
'Bosses'? Try CEO's, executives, district heads, etc. There's simply a massive disconnect between the workforce and the people in charge. A lot of corporations like to tout that their leadership came from the workforce... yeah... like twenty years ago.
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Re: Invisible hand broken finger is healing

Post by Simon_Jester »

Bosses (as in middle management) can be like this too.

There are just plain a lot of people, at all levels, who do not really comprehend the idea of spending money in order to make money. Either they spend fecklessly because they think ALL spending will pay off, or they are foolishly tight-fisted because they don't understand how multiplier effects work.
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