Star Wars: Rebels

[RogueIce]

Seems to me this is a case of people overthinking things again.

When we last see Kalani, he has at best a handful of B-1s and a single shuttle. There's no reason to believe that he'd even find enough Droid Army remnants to be even remotely relevant (or especially visible) even if he signs on with the Rebellion some day. Again, the Stormtroopers had experience and protocols for dealing with Separatist remnant forces they run across, so whatever's left is slowly being taken out as it gets found.

That alone easily explains why we don't see the Droid Army hanging out on Yavin, Hoth or with the Rebel Fleet at Endor. I mean, for all we know Kalani was there, somewhere in the background, on Home One or at the Hoth bunker. Not saying he was, but just because the Rebels weren't rocking Hailfire droids against AT-ATs doesn't mean anything about Kalani's whereabouts because there's no reason he'd ever have come across operating models of those.

[Zixinus]

That is another good point: there are probably so few Seperatists droids still hanging around that it would be barely be worthwhile to get them and then repair, reprogram and maintain them. The expertise for that would probably could be used for elsewhere. They are slightly old tech and they don't have Seperatists infrastructure for spare parts. Maybe a rebel cell here or there might find enough to use them a few times but probably never to consistently make use of them.

Besides, the rebels have no shortage of people willing to fight. What they really need is very skilled people like fighter pirates, trained fighters and other operatives, technicians, etc.

Plus, I'm sure that the Empire was eager to destroy all Seperatist tech they could get their hands on. For both the combination of propaganda purposes and to make sure they aren't lying around for the civilian population to make use of.

[bilateralrope]

Kalani said that he blocked the shutdown signal. Meaning that the droids he commanded never received it.

So I wouldn't be surprised if it works if the Empire sends it a second time.

[Knife]

The problem with that is from RotS we know Organa pretty much started funding a rebellion from the get go the Empire. 10-15 years is a long time to not have trained some peeps even on the down low. There has to have been some non clone vets with combat experience to help train up some forces in that time.

I wonder if that was an element in Palpatine's clone war plan, clones and droids, in that after the clone wars when he can in essence flip a switch and turn both armies off, there are no highly trained and combat experienced vets who can or would go against the Empire. That said, we know a lot of worlds had or have their own 'defense forces' with some combat experience even it it's not from the Clone war and just from local disputes.

[Thanas]

There is also the non-trivial reason that despite Kalani's protests droids are generally shoddy soldiers, probably not even worth it if mass-produced and in great numbers.

If you are the Alliance, why would you even want to dedicate resources to that or trust somebody whose doctrine and tactics have been found lacking?

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, any way you look at it, their are good reasons for the Rebels not to have a lot of droid troops around.

Although having a droid faction would be interesting. Or just a droid character who isn't a sidekick or ally, but has its own agenda, without being evil.

[NecronLord]

Not saying he was, but just because the Rebels weren't rocking Hailfire droids against AT-ATs

But they were.

Stupidly, mobile games are canon after all.

Kalani's rebel unit? and of course the AAT makes a comeback with the rebellion and the empire in nu-canon.

There is also the non-trivial reason that despite Kalani's protests droids are generally shoddy soldiers, probably not even worth it if mass-produced and in great numbers.

If you are the Alliance, why would you even want to dedicate resources to that or trust somebody whose doctrine and tactics have been found lacking?

As Kalani mentions in this episode, the Seperatists had things going well at least in some areas at the end of the war. I don't think the clone wars is an adequate test. B1s fail compared to clones, but so would stormtroopers and rebel soldiers; the good droid units, such as the commando battle droids are intensely useful.

I doubt he'd be able to mass any sort of army, but no doubt he'd be useful, if nothing else than an advisor, perhaps on adapting/scavenging CIS technology - even assuming he doesn't have any codes, I'd much rather have an authentic CIS super tactical droid with me when turning a hailfire droid back on after twenty years than... anyone else really.

[Adam Reynolds]

The deeper problem with using a droid army is political. Using a few refitted ground vehicles is easy enough to justify, but if the Rebel Alliance started cranking out infantry battle droids, they would have the problem that the Empire could accuse them of restarting the clone wars and having Separatist sympathies. This justification would be easier given that most of those vehicles would have human crews, and using weapons from past wars is quite common for resistance fighters.

As Kalani mentions in this episode, the Seperatists had things going well at least in some areas at the end of the war. I don't think the clone wars is an adequate test. B1s fail compared to clones, but so would stormtroopers and rebel soldiers; the good droid units, such as the commando battle droids are intensely useful.

I am not sure that the Rebels would lose as soldiers. While they often have inferior equipment, they seem to always be on the competent side. In space I would especially bet on Rebel pilots over clone ones. Look at how quickly they gain space superiority over Endor.

In Clone Wars especially, we seem to see strong variance in clone quality in combat. Those that are off the commander class like Rex, or otherwise main characters like Fives, seem to have character shields in comparison to the cannon fodder no name clones. Who have shot the wall twice in the same spot on occasion. Even stormtroopers haven't done that.

There is also the fact that clones actually get overwhelmed by battle droids fairly often. While this is usually due to superior numbers, occasionally it is just due to a general loss of initiative. It is also usually against super battle droids or commando droids as well, with B-1s only serving as cannon fodder.

[Galvatron]

Well, any way you look at it, their are good reasons for the Rebels not to have a lot of droid troops around.

They wouldn't need "a lot," but I think the rebels could have used a droideka or two on the Tantive IV when the stormtroopers boarded her. Also, imagine if the rebels had a couple of hundred expendable battledroids on Hoth to cover their evacuation.

[Elheru Aran]

I suspect that the Tantive being a consular vessel owned by the diplomatic corps of Alderaan, a notoriously pacifistic world, droidekas would have been slightly out of place to say the least. As for battle droids on Hoth... sure. But by that point (a few years after Yavin) it's possible that any battle droids still around, more than twenty years after the end of the Clone Wars, would be in bad repair and short of spare parts thanks to the shutdown of the Trade Federation factories. Artoo and Threepio survived thanks to being kept up by the Alderaanians.

[NecronLord]

The deeper problem with using a droid army is political. Using a few refitted ground vehicles is easy enough to justify, but if the Rebel Alliance started cranking out infantry battle droids, they would have the problem that the Empire could accuse them of restarting the clone wars and having Separatist sympathies. This justification would be easier given that most of those vehicles would have human crews, and using weapons from past wars is quite common for resistance fighters.

I'd honestly be amazed if the Empire didn't tar them with that brush anyway, up to and including setting B1s on colonists and having the B1s shout 'for the rebellion'

In Clone Wars especially, we seem to see strong variance in clone quality in combat. Those that are off the commander class like Rex, or otherwise main characters like Fives, seem to have character shields in comparison to the cannon fodder no name clones. Who have shot the wall twice in the same spot on occasion. Even stormtroopers haven't done that.

That's probably animation-cost? I raise you Sabine baffling the keystone kops stormtroopers in reply.

There is also the fact that clones actually get overwhelmed by battle droids fairly often. While this is usually due to superior numbers, occasionally it is just due to a general loss of initiative. It is also usually against super battle droids or commando droids as well, with B-1s only serving as cannon fodder.

Yep. I'm of the opinion (as Kalani was) that despite the stuff like the 'outer rim sieges' the CIS position was strategically viable; it's simply the nature of their war-machine that the longer the war goes, the more they grow relative to the biological forces.

[NecronLord]

I suspect that the Tantive being a consular vessel owned by the diplomatic corps of Alderaan, a notoriously pacifistic world, droidekas would have been slightly out of place to say the least. As for battle droids on Hoth... sure. But by that point (a few years after Yavin) it's possible that any battle droids still around, more than twenty years after the end of the Clone Wars, would be in bad repair and short of spare parts thanks to the shutdown of the Trade Federation factories. Artoo and Threepio survived thanks to being kept up by the Alderaanians.

The star wars mobile game (yes, I know) says that Droidekas were in use by the rebellion, but only as base-defences, and they were limited to operating near a fixed charging point. Perhaps they aged badly. Ta Da

[Elheru Aran]

I suspect that the Tantive being a consular vessel owned by the diplomatic corps of Alderaan, a notoriously pacifistic world, droidekas would have been slightly out of place to say the least. As for battle droids on Hoth... sure. But by that point (a few years after Yavin) it's possible that any battle droids still around, more than twenty years after the end of the Clone Wars, would be in bad repair and short of spare parts thanks to the shutdown of the Trade Federation factories. Artoo and Threepio survived thanks to being kept up by the Alderaanians.

The star wars mobile game (yes, I know) says that Droidekas were in use by the rebellion, but only as base-defences, and they were limited to operating near a fixed charging point. Perhaps they aged badly. Ta Da

As I noted earlier, it would be foolish for the Rebels to deliberately refuse using any viable military resources at their command. However there are clear political and ideological reasons why using droids may be problematic for them. I don't have an issue with them being depicted as occasionally using droids; the Empire clearly didn't worry too much about it either (at least if you take Dark Empire at face value).

[NecronLord]

Spoiler

Even Disney canon has Dark Troopers now; and they're in the Rebels Trailers for season two.

[Adam Reynolds]

I'd honestly be amazed if the Empire didn't tar them with that brush anyway, up to and including setting B1s on colonists and having the B1s shout 'for the rebellion'

That would be interesting if it occured, but if the Rebel Alliance began using droids themselves, it would be ever easier for the Empire to tar them in this respect.

There is also the factor that the Rebel Alliance seems to have no shortage of volunteers, and use tactics that sacrifice personnel for equipment. On Hoth Echo Base does this, both with their defensive line, as well as with the fact that they throw away 2 pilots in each snowspeeder, likely indicating they have a reserve for their x-wings and y-wings. While the speeder pilots include some of their best(Luke and Wedge) it presumably leaves enough of a reserve otherwise.

Having a droid army would tax their already strained logisitics even further.

That's probably animation-cost? I raise you Sabine baffling the keystone kops stormtroopers in reply.

That was half sarcastic, but I was also referring to Rebels vs clones rather than stormtroopers.

Yep. I'm of the opinion (as Kalani was) that despite the stuff like the 'outer rim sieges' the CIS position was strategically viable; it's simply the nature of their war-machine that the longer the war goes, the more they grow relative to the biological forces.

My statement was more about their tactical effectiveness as infantry, at the strategic level, the Republic seems to be winning.

For one thing, Palpatine would never give his apprentice an army that was stronger than his own. Sith Lords don't exactly live long by trusting in the loyalty of their apprentices. The Republic is also far larger than the CIS, and while clones are a rare commodity, they are not required to win the war. Non-clone militaries are heavily engaged in the war, primarily on the side of the Republic, and the stormtroopers that replace them are not clones at all. If it wasn't a question of eliminating Jedi, there would be virtually no need for clones in the first place. The Republic also has a slight bonus in that their warships and weapon systems don't compete with their infantry in terms of resources.

The second problems is that ROTS seems to quite strongly indicate that the Republic was outright winning overall. As much as the CIS could build up as the war dragged on, their planets seemed fall to Republic offensives far more often than the inverse. Coruscant appeared to be something of a desperate offensive, in which they were trying to bring the war to the enemy after they were losing. It was almost akin to the Battle of Gettysburg in the American Civil War.

The third problem is that while clones occasionally lost, they seemed to win far more often. The sausage grinder strategy, in which one can consistently inflict casualties on the enemy to take advantage of industrial superiority, only works if one can consistently engage the enemy in battle and inflict enough casualties to matter. Given the momentum the Republic seems to keep enjoying overall, that doesn't seem to be happening.

[NecronLord]

My statement was more about their tactical effectiveness as infantry, at the strategic level, the Republic seems to be winning.

For one thing, Palpatine would never give his apprentice an army that was stronger than his own. Sith Lords don't exactly live long by trusting in the loyalty of their apprentices. The Republic is also far larger than the CIS, and while clones are a rare commodity, they are not required to win the war. Non-clone militaries are heavily engaged in the war, primarily on the side of the Republic, and the stormtroopers that replace them are not clones at all. If it wasn't a question of eliminating Jedi, there would be virtually no need for clones in the first place. The Republic also has a slight bonus in that their warships and weapon systems don't compete with their infantry in terms of resources.

The second problems is that ROTS seems to quite strongly indicate that the Republic was outright winning overall. As much as the CIS could build up as the war dragged on, their planets seemed fall to Republic offensives far more often than the inverse. Coruscant appeared to be something of a desperate offensive, in which they were trying to bring the war to the enemy after they were losing. It was almost akin to the Battle of Gettysburg in the American Civil War.

The third problem is that while clones occasionally lost, they seemed to win far more often. The sausage grinder strategy, in which one can consistently inflict casualties on the enemy to take advantage of industrial superiority, only works if one can consistently engage the enemy in battle and inflict enough casualties to matter. Given the momentum the Republic seems to keep enjoying overall, that doesn't seem to be happening.

A lot of your information seems to be from legends; certainly I absolutely demand that you provide evidence from a canon source that the republic could have won the war against the CIS without clones.



"We shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The jedi will be overwhelmed. The republic will agree to any demands we make."

Either we have to believe all of those people were idiots and the disarmed republic had just to raise its mighty hand and squash them, or, you know, we could assume the people in the films are not sub-moron idiots.

And, Kalani's not just talking about clones.

"Near the end of the war, Separatist droids significantly outnumbered Republic units, by my calculations our probability of being defeated was only 23.6%"

He doesn't specify clones, why do you assume he forgets the likes of the Onderon Militia (who he fought extensively)?

[RogueIce]

Not saying he was, but just because the Rebels weren't rocking Hailfire droids against AT-ATs

But they were.

Stupidly, mobile games are canon after all.

Have I mentioned before how much I hate this hyper-inclusionist Canon Policy?

Because I hate this hyper-inclusionist Canon Policy.

[The Romulan Republic]

The deeper problem with using a droid army is political. Using a few refitted ground vehicles is easy enough to justify, but if the Rebel Alliance started cranking out infantry battle droids, they would have the problem that the Empire could accuse them of restarting the clone wars and having Separatist sympathies. This justification would be easier given that most of those vehicles would have human crews, and using weapons from past wars is quite common for resistance fighters.

I'd honestly be amazed if the Empire didn't tar them with that brush anyway, up to and including setting B1s on colonists and having the B1s shout 'for the rebellion'

In Clone Wars especially, we seem to see strong variance in clone quality in combat. Those that are off the commander class like Rex, or otherwise main characters like Fives, seem to have character shields in comparison to the cannon fodder no name clones. Who have shot the wall twice in the same spot on occasion. Even stormtroopers haven't done that.

That's probably animation-cost? I raise you Sabine baffling the keystone kops stormtroopers in reply.

There is also the fact that clones actually get overwhelmed by battle droids fairly often. While this is usually due to superior numbers, occasionally it is just due to a general loss of initiative. It is also usually against super battle droids or commando droids as well, with B-1s only serving as cannon fodder.

Yep. I'm of the opinion (as Kalani was) that despite the stuff like the 'outer rim sieges' the CIS position was strategically viable; it's simply the nature of their war-machine that the longer the war goes, the more they grow relative to the biological forces.

Oh, I think that if the CIS had been really fighting to win (rather than their leadership intending them to lose from the start so Palpatine could take over the Republic), they might very well have come out on top with the forces they had.

Well, any way you look at it, their are good reasons for the Rebels not to have a lot of droid troops around.

They wouldn't need "a lot," but I think the rebels could have used a droideka or two on the Tantive IV when the stormtroopers boarded her. Also, imagine if the rebels had a couple of hundred expendable battledroids on Hoth to cover their evacuation.

The thing is, like Elheru Aran said, they'd be out of place- and the Tantive IV's main defence has to have been secrecy. We saw it couldn't outrun an ISD, and their's no way it could have outfought one. A couple of droidekas would have postponed the battle by a few minutes, or maybe only a few seconds, before Vader or some thermal detonators chucked into the corridor or something took them out.

[Adam Reynolds]

A lot of your information seems to be from legends; certainly I absolutely demand that you provide evidence from a canon source that the republic could have won the war against the CIS without clones.

Sorry, that should have said that they are not required to win the war alone. My point was that limited numbers of clones could be supplemented more heavily by conventional forces if the need for soldiers increased.

My canon source is ROTS, which rather consistently shows the CIS on the defensive, despite their supposed superiority.

"We shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The jedi will be overwhelmed. The republic will agree to any demands we make."

Either we have to believe all of those people were idiots and the disarmed republic had just to raise its mighty hand and squash them, or, you know, we could assume the people in the films are not sub-moron idiots.

They were pretty obviously patsies. The Trade Federation leadership was tricked into working for Palpatine even after he had already betrayed them once.

Notice the follow up scene to this in ROTS(which I couldn't find a link to: "It won't be long before the armies of the Republic track us here." If the CIS had the military advantage, why were they not able to use it to protect their leadership?

And, Kalani's not just talking about clones.

"Near the end of the war, Separatist droids significantly outnumbered Republic units, by my calculations our probability of being defeated was only 23.6%"

He doesn't specify clones, why do you assume he forgets the likes of the Onderon Militia (who he fought extensively)?

This was the same droid that believed that the rebels on Onderon had no chance, or that the Rebel Alliance had no chance. Obviously he isn't very good at actually judging the probability of things as they occur in the real galaxy.

Have I mentioned before how much I hate this hyper-inclusionist Canon Policy?

Because I hate this hyper-inclusionist Canon Policy.

It has always been this way. New is no different than old, as is the fact that almost everyone ignores elements of it to one degree or another.

A lot of people here have ignored the canon policy with respect to season 6 of Clone Wars, and how stupid it makes the Jedi with respect to the clone army and the not at all obvious connection between Sifo-Dyas and Dooku, which immediately follows the revelation that the clone army is equipped with control chips that cause them to kill Jedi.

[Galvatron]

The thing is, like Elheru Aran said, they'd be out of place- and the Tantive IV's main defence has to have been secrecy. We saw it couldn't outrun an ISD, and their's no way it could have outfought one. A couple of droidekas would have postponed the battle by a few minutes, or maybe only a few seconds, before Vader or some thermal detonators chucked into the corridor or something took them out.

I can't help but wonder why the ship's security forces threw their lives away then. Surely they knew they wouldn't be able to stop an entire ISD's complement of troops from steamrolling them.

Have we ever seen Vader take on droidekas and dispatch them with ease? Hell, they seem to be more trouble for Jedi than even MagnaGuards are.

[The Romulan Republic]

They were probably ordered to delay the Empire until Leia could smuggle the Death Star plans off the ship.

Or, alternately, they may have figured that they might as well go down fighting. After all, surrender to the Empire would likely mean imprisonment, torture, and slave labour at best, summary execution at worst.

[Knife]

The thing is, like Elheru Aran said, they'd be out of place- and the Tantive IV's main defence has to have been secrecy. We saw it couldn't outrun an ISD, and their's no way it could have outfought one. A couple of droidekas would have postponed the battle by a few minutes, or maybe only a few seconds, before Vader or some thermal detonators chucked into the corridor or something took them out.

I can't help but wonder why the ship's security forces threw their lives away then. Surely they knew they wouldn't be able to stop an entire ISD's complement of troops from steamrolling them.

Have we ever seen Vader take on droidekas and dispatch them with ease? Hell, they seem to be more trouble for Jedi than even MagnaGuards are.

True, considering the main defense Jedi have against people or droids with blasters is to deflect the blaster bolts back at them and the shields of the Droidekas negate this. That said, we've seen Vader in a fit of rage crush/smash objects and droids with the Force before when he was first in the suit and found out he killed Padme. So it is at least in his wheelhouse to 'crush' a droid which should be possible shield or no shield.

[NecronLord]

A lot of your information seems to be from legends; certainly I absolutely demand that you provide evidence from a canon source that the republic could have won the war against the CIS without clones.

Sorry, that should have said that they are not required to win the war alone. My point was that limited numbers of clones could be supplemented more heavily by conventional forces if the need for soldiers increased.

My canon source is ROTS, which rather consistently shows the CIS on the defensive, despite their supposed superiority.

"What about the attack on the wookies." "It's a system we cannot afford to lose." The CIS was still invading vital systems on the last day of the war, and raided Coruscant the day before.

They were pretty obviously patsies. The Trade Federation leadership was tricked into working for Palpatine even after he had already betrayed them once.

But he does shield them from consequences after TPM, notice how people say it's an outrage that Nute Gunray is still in power. The plan fails, and he still protects them.

Notice the follow up scene to this in ROTS(which I couldn't find a link to: "It won't be long before the armies of the Republic track us here." If the CIS had the military advantage, why were they not able to use it to protect their leadership?

If the Republic had the military advantage no one could posssibly attack their leaders...


"Well yes, but Palpatine allowed that..."

In both cases, Palpatine orders it directly for his endgame:

He also leaked the location of Utapau and ordered the seperatist leaders to be sent to Mustafar to be vulnerable. The attack on Utapau might have gone very differently without that.

This was the same droid that believed that the rebels on Onderon had no chance, or that the Rebel Alliance had no chance. Obviously he isn't very good at actually judging the probability of things as they occur in the real galaxy.

The Onderon militia deliberately kept information from Kalani and kept him ignorant of the rebels strength until too late; garbage in, garbage out. Aside from the duplicity of Sidious there's no reason the CIS would be holding particularly much from Kalani - it's possible there were more republic forces than they realize, but I'm prepared to accept him as an expert.

A lot of people here have ignored the canon policy with respect to season 6 of Clone Wars, and how stupid it makes the Jedi with respect to the clone army and the not at all obvious connection between Sifo-Dyas and Dooku, which immediately follows the revelation that the clone army is equipped with control chips that cause them to kill Jedi.

See, the idea I got from season 6 was that it was all happening in the last week of the war. Or at least the incident with Tup and Yoda's journey to Moraband/Korriban, and they prompted Palpatine to end the war quickly, due to how close the Jedi were getting to working it out.

[Reyvan]

It has always been this way. New is no different than old, as is the fact that almost everyone ignores elements of it to one degree or another.

A lot of people here have ignored the canon policy with respect to season 6 of Clone Wars, and how stupid it makes the Jedi with respect to the clone army and the not at all obvious connection between Sifo-Dyas and Dooku, which immediately follows the revelation that the clone army is equipped with control chips that cause them to kill Jedi.

I actually disagree with this . I feel the Clone Wars does show that the Jedi realize how bad of a situation they're in, the beginning of the next episode immediately after both the Sifo-Dyas arc and the Order 66 arc begins with the Jedi Council discussing this very matter and what a bad position they're in, its just that's not what the episode focuses on. We just get those 30 seconds of it at the beginning before Yoda goes on his journey. Ki-Adi seems to especially realize how bad the situation is, pointing out that their enemy gave them an army.

True, they don't quite make the Order 66 connection, but Palpatine and the Kaminoans did manage to throw up enough obfuscation to make it not quite obvious to someone who isn't the audience. Tup does go berserk and kill a Jedi, but then Fives appears to go berserk, and tries to kill the chancellor, and appears to be a threat not just to the Jedi, we just have foreknowledge about what exactly Order 66 is meant to do, while the Jedi don't. Palpatine then comes up with a plausible explanation for why the chips malfunctioned and caused Tup and Fives to kill, and remember, Palpatine does appear to be one of the people targeted by the malfunctioning chip, that would probably take some of the suspicion off of him and incline the Jedi to trust Palpatine's sources.

Even if the Jedi do manage to put everything together though, what can they do? Stop using the Clones? If they do, the Separatists crush the Republic and a Sith Lord takes over the Galaxy. They know exactly what happens if they follow that course, they seemed to have decided instead to hope that they can finish the war before whatever machinations were afoot are completed, as they don't have any other choice.

The main problem is that the Clone Wars ends before we can see much more than 30 second reaction, because of that final arc with Yoda that had to wrap up the show. They simply did not have the time to show any more than that the Jedi were concerned and talking about these issues.

[Knife]

Agreed, though I think the acceptance of the GAR was writers fiat, in general the Jedi moral issues on the war and the GR winning/separtists winning is actually a good theme.

I think the Jedi at some level knew that 'winning' the war was not necessarily a winner for them but had to fight due to allegiances and loyalty to the republic.