2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Khaat »

Aether wrote:
Khaat wrote: Now it's "muslims" (even if they're not muslims) taking "your" jobs
50 years ago it was "wetbacks"
100 years ago it was "Italians Wops, Irish Mics, and Chinese Chinks"
150 years ago it was... I think you can see where this is going. But, hey, Totally Not Racism(tm). Somehow. :roll:
No, because every example you listed above isn't a race. But hey, it's just easier to make blanket statements against people whom you do not know because it is easier. After all, the "RACIST!" label is a powerful one even when it doesn't apply. If you want to redefine what racism is to include, I don't know, everything...then nothing is racist.
Perhaps you should learn a little historical and social perspective (y'know, since I was talking about a social construct, historically.) And slippery slope fallacies need not apply: "WE'RE ALL THE HUMAN RACE!" (true) does not remove the distinct, lasting, and damaging effects of "racism", historically, or today. Or tomorrow.
Aether wrote:Every group poo-poos their own members transgressions. Every outside group amplifies said transgressions. Did actual racism and sexism play a role? I believe it did. Is *every* Trump voter a racist or sexist? I do not believe that to be true.

Was every German during Hitler's rule a member of the Nazi party? I don't think so, but they were still used as foot-soldiers against Hitler's enemies; Germans soldiers still killed an died for something they "maybe didn't really believe in." Oh, sure, he got Germany out of crushing inflation, paralyzing political gridlock, a national identity crisis, and Made Germany Great Again(tm), and it only cost....
Aether wrote:I have an acquaintance on Facebook who is female and Navajo as well as an avowed feminist. What was her major focus? Sexism. Very important. Just as equal as all others. 100% Racism. 100% Xenophobia. And definitely, most absolutely, 200% sexism caused the rise of Trump. How dare you not believe that isn't true Cis White Christian Male!
[I think that bold part in itself is telling. I'd ask "why do you know her?" but I don't care; you clearly don't.]
You don't see it like she does, and that's fine, but guess what? You, CIS White Christian Male, don't fear for your life and safety the way a woman does, the way LGBQT do, the way a Muslim (or in this case, Navajo) does. And now it's been turned up to eleven by electing someone who is perfectly willing to blame the problems you face on the Other, because a multi-billionaire who has filed bankruptcy and dodged paying taxes for a decade through a dodgy loophole totally knows what it's like to lose a job (he's done it to lots of people), and he's on your side, really.

"No, seriously, the 50's were awesome! Let's all go back!"
Just remember, every time Deputy Fife's "gun goes off in its holster", it's code for "shot an unarmed black man."
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Flagg »

Dragon Angel wrote:
Flagg wrote:Yeah, well I'm sure just like Bush 43* they will hand wave away the fact that (I'm totally serious it's almost suicide inducing) Trump doesn't really know what the President, you know, does by saying he'll "be surrounded by smart, knowledgeable people". Of course those people are the likes of Adolph Ghouliani and Grand Wizard Bannon. So, yeah.
Yeah... Trump is like the incompetent king with the scheming chancellor whispering what he should really do. Though, our ironic saving grace could well be his arrogance and pride causing him to ignore Pence, his cabinet, and the loaded dice of a Congress we now have in favor of his brand of chaos.

Well, I suppose it was an eventuality that we would have our own Caligula. :|
Don't insult little boots, at least he had imagination. :twisted:
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

Besides, Trump hasn't slept with his sister. Yet.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Flagg »

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
Dragon Angel wrote:
Flagg wrote:Yeah, well I'm sure just like Bush 43* they will hand wave away the fact that (I'm totally serious it's almost suicide inducing) Trump doesn't really know what the President, you know, does by saying he'll "be surrounded by smart, knowledgeable people". Of course those people are the likes of Adolph Ghouliani and Grand Wizard Bannon. So, yeah.
Yeah... Trump is like the incompetent king with the scheming chancellor whispering what he should really do. Though, our ironic saving grace could well be his arrogance and pride causing him to ignore Pence, his cabinet, and the loaded dice of a Congress we now have in favor of his brand of chaos.

Well, I suppose it was an eventuality that we would have our own Caligula. :|
Donald Trump knows less about being president than he does about being an honest businessman. As long as his yes-men verbally fellate him on a regular basis, he'll be more than happy to let Mike Pence, Paul Ryan, and Mitch McConnell run the country for him. Especially since they only need him to be sane and reasonable for, at best, a few minutes (or however long it takes to rubber-stamp legislation) each week. Otherwise he and his family are free to basically loot the planet for their own personal enrichment.

Which is actually worse in every way, compared to simply having the Donald run everything himself. It would be marginally more tolerable if we had an opposition party that knew how to, you know, oppose. Except we don't. The Democrats in Washington are already showing that they only care for their own personal power. You have Chuck Schumer making conciliatory noises in the Senate about how they look forward to working with the Republicans; when the right thing to do would be to take a page from the Republicans' playbook and vigorously oppose everything the GOP puts forward. You have Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders whitewashing (pun very fucking intended) Donald Trump's victory as one solely of economics. You even have Bernie Sanders saying that Trump would have a goddamned ally in him if he were to take on Bernie Sanders' pet issue.

And to think there were people who thought Bernie Sanders would save the Democrats. Joke's on you now ... and I'm sorry if it isn't very funny. The only thing that will save the Democrats is if every last one of them at the national level got put on unemployment, and local Democrats rebuilt the party from the state level.
This shit is why I hate being right. It's like being on a prison bus being driven over railroad tracks head on towards the train but the driver is a conjoined twin and they are so busy being butthurt at each other (the following isn't left/right politically) that one refuses to turn left to avoid the train and the other refuses to turn right and BAM! Raped by Trump.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Flagg »

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:Besides, Trump hasn't slept with his sister. Yet.
Yes he did. Knocked her up, too. He keeps the incest baby on his head.
We pissing our pants yet?
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by ArmorPierce »

K. A. Pital wrote:I did not point out anything beyond the fact female wages have not substantially increased relative to male wages.

If you think that under typical progressive policies the female unemployment rate would have further reduced relative to the male one, that view is also kind of unfounded. Where to should it fall and how could participation furhter increase if it has been stagnating for both sexes? Labor participation rate by sex:
Image

I think the unemployment has not fallen fast enough or jobs created were not of decent quality (a trend well noted by many economists) after the recession. This also created the potential for Trump to capitalize on.

That graph shows the labor participation rate which is vastly different from the unemployment rate. Again, disengenuous without proper context of the many factors that go into labor participation

Through out the recession the actual unemployment rate of women have been similar and at times substantially lower than men.

Ref http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2013/mobile ... 130806.htm

There certainly were things that could have been done to accelerate the drop in unemployed rate, and make no mistake the current unemployment rate is effectively full employment, but that this that could have been done again would have been greater liberal and demand side keynesian economic policies including more government intervention to kick start the economy.

But yes I agree that the democratic party had been far too conservative/right leaning, but that's largely a result of their constituents voting against their interest rather than for a berne sanders like figure.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

Flagg wrote:
U.P. Cinnabar wrote:Besides, Trump hasn't slept with his sister. Yet.
Yes he did. Knocked her up, too. He keeps the incest baby on his head.
Oh, man. Right when I was drinking a Coke Zero too.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Wild Zontargs »

Yes, keep crying "wolf" "racist". The people you're shouting at don't care anymore:
He Doesn’t Care If You Call Him Racist
As a 46 year old white male, I’d like to give my perspective for the various liberals and leftists who comment here (and I’m truly glad you are here).

By your definition, I’m a racist, and I just don’t care anymore. I don’t believe I’m actually a racist, but you’re going to label me that way anyway, so I’ll just accept it. I’m a racist based on your definition. Fine. I won’t argue, I’ll just acknowledge you are right. I’m guilty of racism. Frankly, I’ve given up trying to prove you’re wrong. Hell, you’ll call me a racist for thinking algebra should be taught in school, and gifted programs should be kept even if they “lack diversity.”

And so now, if I can be so bold, here’s my response: “So what? I get it. I’m a racist. Do you have anything else to say? Now that you’ve defined me as a racist, should I just disappear? Should I just admit that you are right, and come around to your way of thinking? What, exactly, do you want me to do? Because I still think about the issues affecting this country in the exact same way.”

[...]

Dear Liberals, Democrats, progressives, leftists: Your use of the word “racist” doesn’t work anymore. We get it. You’re superior. You’re enlightened and we’re not. You care about diversity and we don’t. We only listen to dog whistles. We have given up trying to talk you out of your presumptions, or trying to earn your approval. We no longer consider it worth our while to reassure you that we’re not “that kind” of Republican.

But the fact is, we’re not as stupid as you think we are, and we see right through you. And if there’s one thing Trump has done, he’s given us some backbone to make our voices heard. Of course, that means “expressions of racism” will increase. (OMG!) And every child who behaves like a bully will be blamed on Trump. The fact is, we just won’t care about your freak-outs. Go ahead and caterwaul. You lost, and you deserved to lose.

I cast my vote for Trump reluctantly. Now, I couldn’t be prouder.
We're now at the point where the people you're calling racist don't care anymore, it does nothing to encourage them to change their views, and the general public doesn't know if you mean "wrong-thinker" or "actually hates minorities", because the word (as used in general conversation) has lost all meaning.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Khaat »

Indiana Jones wrote:You stood up to be counted with the enemies of everything the Grail stands for! Who gives a *damn* what you believe?
:D
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by TheFeniX »

Comparing Conservatives whites to Nazis doesn't change that their vote counts the same as anyone else. Even when the time comes where it has less effect on the national level, they will still have the numbers to enforce bullshit on a state and local level, continuing to punish people in those areas. I live in Texas, telling Whites "fuck off, you'll be irrelevant in X years" doesn't help me nor the other people who live here. If anything, those left will double-down in areas they still have influence and fuck it up even worse.

I'd like more moderate Whites, not more that feel their only option is to dive further to the right.

Anyways, I still believe Democrats can't make major inroads into the White vote until they reverse their stance on Gun Control. Even among moderates their ownership rates are more to the conservative side of things. Minorities seem to be leaning towards the gun rights side, so there's little risk there. Democrats have only made superficial grabs over the years with limited success, and the only people who would seem to get really pissed off would be white liberals who have about zero chance of not voting Democrat.

And Gun Control seems to be more of a way to rile up their base anyways. It's easier to get a legal Full-auto or other class 3 restricted under Obama than it was under Bush. For all his talk, I can't think of anything significant Obama has done to restrict gun ownership in the States. He's been fought on this by everyone, including his own party at times.

Supporting Gun Rights removes a large Conservative talking point that, at least around here, I hear a lot: "They'll take ur gunz!"
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Khaat »

Strangely, I haven't seen Democrats telling conservative whites they'll become irrelevant, though "coal is dead as buggy-whips" was a foot-in-mouth mis-step; I saw eight years of Obama's "work with us for our common future" getting slapped away over the standard conservative talking-points.

I have seen the threat of "conservative whites being made irrelevant in the future" used as a conservative Republican talking point. And it worked: enough of the votes were for a man of demonstrated questionable, non-Christian, non-family, "elitist" values standing behind a wall of "They will take it* away from you!" When did extending the same rights held by most to the rest cost anyone theirs?

TheFenix wrote:It's easier to get a legal Full-auto or other class 3 restricted under Obama than it was under Bush. For all his talk, I can't think of anything significant Obama has done to restrict gun ownership in the States.
That was the "assault weapons ban" [officially, the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act — is a subsection of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994] from the Clinton era that expired as designed (a 10-year ban). Obama did Not A Damned Thing of Note regarding guns (except if you weren't supposed to have them anyway), but he was still "comin' fer yer guns!"

* whatever the hell "it" needs to be for that particular audience: guns, bigotry, faith
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by TheFeniX »

Khaat wrote:Strangely, I haven't seen Democrats telling conservative whites they'll become irrelevant, though "coal is dead as buggy-whips" was a foot-in-mouth mis-step; I saw eight years of Obama's "work with us for our common future" getting slapped away over the standard conservative talking-points.
It's implied due to progressive outlooks. There is a lot of talk about helping minorities while the middle class continues to disappear and the wage gap grows larger. Helping refuges while Veterans rot as homeless and can't get the care they need/deserve. Convincing white people to care about gender/race issues while they work longer hours (if they can find a job at all) for less money is a hard sell. And Clinton really looked to be another 4-8 years of Obama with a larger emphasis on Gun Control (as she has a long history in that area).

So... a guy like Trump who trumpeted blathered on about removing roadblocks to prosperity (after-all, even if you don't mind immigrants, they are job competition) and making jobs for you looks appealing no matter how many vile things he says because you're going to focus on what's more important to you. People love to rationalize.
I have seen the threat of "conservative whites being made irrelevant in the future" used as a conservative Republican talking point. And it worked: enough of the votes were for a man of demonstrated questionable, non-Christian, non-family, "elitist" values standing behind a wall of "They will take it* away from you!" When did extending the same rights held by most to the rest cost anyone theirs?
Wasn't Sanders given shit because he wanted to help ALL PEOPLE, which would help minorities by extension, when he was asked what he would do to help African-Americans? That was a talking point around here: the Democrats were so involved in the BLM movement and minority rights, those were all that mattered.
That was the "assault weapons ban" [officially, the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act — is a subsection of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994] from the Clinton era that expired as designed (a 10-year ban).
No, this concerns the NFA (National Firearms Act) that saw revisions in.... 68 and 86 IIRC. Back under Bush, two ways to "get your stamp" was to either get County Sheriff approval or form an LLC. Now, with the formation of a legal Trust, you can get them the same way with nothing but some paper-work and patience. Oddly, I've found no actual reading on this topic, but "Class 3s" (FFLs licensed to deal in NFA weapons) have gone into the "getting you a class 3" business on a level not seen under Bush. Under Bush, the ATF would hassle you so much, it wasn't worth bothering. At least from discussions with the FFLs I used to frequent.

Only thing I can figure is that the ATF has been too busy selling guns to criminals during the Obama administration to keep tabs on things.

My brother owns 2 suppressors now, something he could not get done under Bush, and he bitches incessantly about Obama being anti-gun. You know, because he's an idiot. However, if you LISTEN to Democrats, you should be worried about their plans for guns. But if you actually pay attention to WHAT THEY DO, they don't have the spine to burn political capital to actually get something done though. Which is fine, I'd rather them burn capital in other areas that matter.
Obama did Not A Damned Thing of Note regarding guns (except if you weren't supposed to have them anyway), but he was still "comin' fer yer guns!"
Exactly. All I can recall was during his first year or so of trying to pass an AWB extension and his own party fighting him on it because people didn't care about guns: fix the economy. Except Clinton has a long standing grudge against guns and (seemingly) gun owners. The Democrats are already gun friendly in that they make little to no inroads into actual gun control: they are fought on every front by Conservatives, but also moderates and other liberal gun owners. It's a losing proposition and ditching Gun Control as a platform completely has no real negatives I can see.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

TheFeniX wrote:Comparing Conservatives whites to Nazis doesn't change that their vote counts the same as anyone else. Even when the time comes where it has less effect on the national level, they will still have the numbers to enforce bullshit on a state and local level, continuing to punish people in those areas. I live in Texas, telling Whites "fuck off, you'll be irrelevant in X years" doesn't help me nor the other people who live here. If anything, those left will double-down in areas they still have influence and fuck it up even worse.

I'd like more moderate Whites, not more that feel their only option is to dive further to the right.

Anyways, I still believe Democrats can't make major inroads into the White vote until they reverse their stance on Gun Control. Even among moderates their ownership rates are more to the conservative side of things. Minorities seem to be leaning towards the gun rights side, so there's little risk there. Democrats have only made superficial grabs over the years with limited success, and the only people who would seem to get really pissed off would be white liberals who have about zero chance of not voting Democrat.

And Gun Control seems to be more of a way to rile up their base anyways. It's easier to get a legal Full-auto or other class 3 restricted under Obama than it was under Bush. For all his talk, I can't think of anything significant Obama has done to restrict gun ownership in the States. He's been fought on this by everyone, including his own party at times.

Supporting Gun Rights removes a large Conservative talking point that, at least around here, I hear a lot: "They'll take ur gunz!"
Most Americans may support the right to bear arms, but polls also show that the vast majority of the population supported further regulation of firearms. "No gun control" is a stance of a very small (if vocal) minority, which seems to mostly consist of the gun lobby and the paranoid militia types.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Khaat »

TheFeniX wrote:Only thing I can figure is that the ATF has been too busy selling guns to criminals during the Obama administration to keep tabs on things
So this I don't know a lot about:
1) I thought it had begun under Bush and was continued by Obama, and yep:
Wiki wrote:"Gunwalking", or "letting guns walk", was a tactic of the Arizona Field Office of the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), which ran a series of sting operations between 2006 and 2011 in the Tucson and Phoenix area where the ATF "purposely allowed licensed firearms dealers to sell weapons to illegal straw buyers, hoping to track the guns to Mexican drug cartel leaders and arrest them."
These operations were done under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner, a project intended to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico by interdicting straw purchasers and gun traffickers within the United States. The Jacob Chambers Case began in October 2009 and eventually became known in February 2010 as "Operation Fast and Furious" after agents discovered Chambers and the other suspects under investigation belonged to a car club.
The stated goal of allowing these purchases was to continue to track the firearms as they were transferred to higher-level traffickers and key figures in Mexican cartels, with the expectation that this would lead to their arrests and the dismantling of the cartels.
...
A number of straw purchasers have been arrested and indicted; however, as of October 2011, none of the targeted high-level cartel figures had been arrested.
So, separate projects under a continued program, got it. But, of note, not selling: allowing sales to continue under surveillance, y'know, like a sting operation in one of those action movies where the bad guy gets shot in the end, like he deserves. :roll:
Wiki wrote:The ATF began Project Gunrunner as a pilot project in Laredo, Texas, in 2005 and expanded it as a national initiative in 2006.
That predates Obama, but he was holding the dynamite when the fuse burnt out. *shrug*

2) A single state's field office (AZ) of the ATF for this particular investigation (and project, not program), and not all of that office: consider the major DEA efforts, with undercover agents, extended surveillance, all waiting for a bust that will lead them up the criminal food chain. If only it worked like in the movies!
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by FireNexus »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Tag quote, gun control public support.
That may be true, but the stance of most Americans judging by their voting habits is "Who gives a shit" with the exception of he two weeks followI got a bunch of people getting mowed down. Given that violent crime in general is way, way, way down from the glory days of gun control, it's a harder selling point than the Dem focus on it would have you believe.

And that small minority is well-funded and very dedicated to their position. They're also heavily overrrepresented in swing states where Republicans unsurprisingly dominate. A Kander position (universal background checks with an explicit no-ban position) is probably the best option nationally. But even then, unless you can assemble an m-16 blindfolded in a viral video yu're probably better off not talking about it or saying "guns for everyone" or "state issue" in those districts.

If you can pick off a single issue voting bloc like that without losing much, why not? That aforementioned lack of violent crime really does kill any enthusiasm for federal gun control efforts even with the occasional mass shootings. Gun control of any meaningful variety is DoA, and the only party that advocates it has been on a historic losing streak. They may be unrelated, but the last major federal gun control law was at the peak of the crime wave in the 1990s.

I support much tougher gun restrictions, but I don't see a world in which they happen or think we should hobble ourselves in rural areas any further than we have to. There's a reason Bernie Sanders has been non-commital on guns for most of his career. And as unfavorably as I view Bernie, I consider that a very smart move on his part that the party at large should immediately emulate.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Bernie took a moderate stance on it as I recall, supporting some additional regulation, but not to the fairly hardline extent Clinton did (which was rather bizarre, considering that eight years before, it was her going after Obama for being too anti-gun).

I agree that that is probably a smart tack for the Democratic Party if they want to win in midwestern states.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by mr friendly guy »

Wild Zontargs wrote: We're now at the point where the people you're calling racist don't care anymore, it does nothing to encourage them to change their views, and the general public doesn't know if you mean "wrong-thinker" or "actually hates minorities", because the word (as used in general conversation) has lost all meaning.
Well you strictly speaking still can. Just find out why they call someone a racist, ie what they said or did that is considered racist, then make your own judgment.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Khaat »

You are correct, MFG, in that they could. Except that they're "over it" (code for "too lazy to bother"), and would rather just default to prejudice: "Oh, you're with them."

We all do it to some degree. "Only Sith deal in absolutes." "Really?" "Absolutely."
Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Joun_Lord »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Bernie took a moderate stance on it as I recall, supporting some additional regulation, but not to the fairly hardline extent Clinton did (which was rather bizarre, considering that eight years before, it was her going after Obama for being too anti-gun).
Yeah Bernie was pretty moderate. He supported or mentioned support of some thing I don't agree with like ban of semi-autos and clipazine limits but compared to the rhetoric (though not actions) of Obama or Hillary he was fairly moderate. Why some people I know including myself (its really debatable how much I know that fucker though) had some support for him. Hillary has made her positions clear, Trump has changed positions more then a fucking game of musical chairs with some people remembering that not too long ago he was very Hillary-ish, while Bernie might not be super pro-gun but he shows a willingness to balance gun rights with his want of gun control.

I liked that about Bernie. I consider myself pro-gun even if it really doesn't effect me either way (heretically as it might be) but am for actual "common sense" non-feel good gun safety measures. Stupid feel good nonsense based on emotion and not any sort of thought like mag bans, being racist towards black rifles, and especially going after gun makers for people abusing their products. None of that shit would make anyone safe, stop any mass shootings, do anything beyond making some people feel good that something was done and others be able to point at the shit and go "look, look we're doing something......some......thing....onthewing!!!!".

Sadly Bernie for me was as close to a perfect candidate as I've seen in awhile. I'm all over the board being pro-gun, pro-gay marriage, pro-weed legalization, pro-military, pro-foreign aid (within reason), pro-immigration though not unlimited, pro-welfare, pro re-examining our relationship with Israel, pro normalizing our relationship with Cuba and Iranistan, pro not fucking with Russia but not bending to them, and pro national police reform. So both Democrats and Republicans think I'm nutso.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Aether »

Khaat wrote: Perhaps you should learn a little historical and social perspective (y'know, since I was talking about a social construct, historically.) And slippery slope fallacies need not apply: "WE'RE ALL THE HUMAN RACE!" (true) does not remove the distinct, lasting, and damaging effects of "racism", historically, or today. Or tomorrow.
I don't disagree with that we are all the human race, nor do I disagree that racism, or bigotry and/or xenophobia have lasting affects. It still isn't racism with the examples you provided. There is a spectrum: racism, bigotry, prejudice, and bias. This is all but forgotten.
Supposedly, white people are only capable of racism. Other races who say/do the same thing toward whites is "only" bigotry, yet if one minority says/do something against another minority then it is upgrade to racism. Or is it only still considered to be bigotry? I'm confused with the relative racism purported by the left nowadays. Pardon me if I simply call bullshit.
Was every German during Hitler's rule a member of the Nazi party? I don't think so, but they were still used as foot-soldiers against Hitler's enemies; Germans soldiers still killed an died for something they "maybe didn't really believe in." Oh, sure, he got Germany out of crushing inflation, paralyzing political gridlock, a national identity crisis, and Made Germany Great Again(tm), and it only cost....
Bill Maher actually came out and said that he wished the left didn't lambast McCain and Romney as racists. John Stewart remarked on the liberal hypocrisy of treating all of Trump voters as one racist monolith. Michael Moore's Trumpland was a discussion with Trump supporters. Moore even said himself that he understood why people are angry; especially at the lack of jobs. For the record I know those types of jobs are not coming back in a global ecomony. But it's easier to do to throw shade at an entire group of people who made the same choice but out of different reasons. Some are racists. Others poo-pooed what they saw as over the top rhetoric. Still others are ignorant and didn't believe, in their opinion, was a biased media against an outsider. You may certainly disagree with Trump and feel that many of them were bamboozled (as I do), but your comparison to the rise of Hitler and Germans as culpable is a gross hyperbole.

"I disagree with you, but I am pretty sure you are not Hitler." - John Stewart.

You don't see it like she does, and that's fine, but guess what? You, CIS White Christian Male, don't fear for your life and safety the way a woman does, the way LGBQT do, the way a Muslim (or in this case, Navajo) does. And now it's been turned up to eleven by electing someone who is perfectly willing to blame the problems you face on the Other, because a multi-billionaire who has filed bankruptcy and dodged paying taxes for a decade through a dodgy loophole totally knows what it's like to lose a job (he's done it to lots of people), and he's on your side, really.
The point I was making is that specifically to her, the rise of Trump was almost entirely of sexism. If you ask white liberals, it was clearly racism. Still others would argue a degree of both, but depending on their own biases it leaned in one direction or another. So goes the argument that Trump was *ONLY* due to racists and sexists, yet would never bother to talk with someone who would vote Trump. Why bother, right? They already made up their mind. But you are right. She sees it differently and I do not see the sexism necessarily as a major factor as she would, but if anyone want's to argue that my view is automatically diminished because I am white CIS male, then :finger: .

I have my own reservations and fears of a Trump presidency. I consider myself a very blessed person to have a very diverse set of friends. Colors, religions, sexual orientations, ethnicities, nationalities, etc. and that provides me with a wealth of different viewpoints.

But I do agree with you that he has bamboozled his supporters especially with jobs and "Draining the Swamp." He has emboldened a small portion of the electorate who are legitimate racists and the other people who he fooled will find out real soon how well they had it under Obama.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Flagg »

Wild Zontargs wrote:Yes, keep crying "wolf" "racist". The people you're shouting at don't care anymore:
He Doesn’t Care If You Call Him Racist
As a 46 year old white male, I’d like to give my perspective for the various liberals and leftists who comment here (and I’m truly glad you are here).

By your definition, I’m a racist, and I just don’t care anymore. I don’t believe I’m actually a racist, but you’re going to label me that way anyway, so I’ll just accept it. I’m a racist based on your definition. Fine. I won’t argue, I’ll just acknowledge you are right. I’m guilty of racism. Frankly, I’ve given up trying to prove you’re wrong. Hell, you’ll call me a racist for thinking algebra should be taught in school, and gifted programs should be kept even if they “lack diversity.”

And so now, if I can be so bold, here’s my response: “So what? I get it. I’m a racist. Do you have anything else to say? Now that you’ve defined me as a racist, should I just disappear? Should I just admit that you are right, and come around to your way of thinking? What, exactly, do you want me to do? Because I still think about the issues affecting this country in the exact same way.”

[...]

Dear Liberals, Democrats, progressives, leftists: Your use of the word “racist” doesn’t work anymore. We get it. You’re superior. You’re enlightened and we’re not. You care about diversity and we don’t. We only listen to dog whistles. We have given up trying to talk you out of your presumptions, or trying to earn your approval. We no longer consider it worth our while to reassure you that we’re not “that kind” of Republican.

But the fact is, we’re not as stupid as you think we are, and we see right through you. And if there’s one thing Trump has done, he’s given us some backbone to make our voices heard. Of course, that means “expressions of racism” will increase. (OMG!) And every child who behaves like a bully will be blamed on Trump. The fact is, we just won’t care about your freak-outs. Go ahead and caterwaul. You lost, and you deserved to lose.

I cast my vote for Trump reluctantly. Now, I couldn’t be prouder.
We're now at the point where the people you're calling racist don't care anymore, it does nothing to encourage them to change their views, and the general public doesn't know if you mean "wrong-thinker" or "actually hates minorities", because the word (as used in general conversation) has lost all meaning.
That's because we exist in a society where outside of some flyover states everyone has to interact with, and be polite to a certain extent, to a multitude of different races/religions/ethnicities. So someone who works at a diverse company can come home and "Seig Heil" the swastika flag on their flagpole and post racist bullshit all over the Internet but when called a racist will take offense and cite how they work with (insert race(s) they hate here) or just say "everyone is racist boohoohoo".

Really the issue isn't the swastika flag dipshits, it's the institutional racism virtually built into the system. It looked like some of that was finally going to be dealt with in the Prison Industrial Complex, but with Silly Putty Hitler taking office (thanks a lot America you bunch of ignorant, lazy, apathetic cunts) on January 21st I figure any changes made will be rolled back and the situation will get worse.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by TheFeniX »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Most Americans may support the right to bear arms, but polls also show that the vast majority of the population supported further regulation of firearms. "No gun control" is a stance of a very small (if vocal) minority, which seems to mostly consist of the gun lobby and the paranoid militia types.
What FireNexus said. But there's also a couple more points:

1. I've never met a (sane) person who is actually in favor of no gun control. Ask even the most ardent gun nut: "Should violent felons be allowed to own guns?" The guy who is all "lol, gunz for all" is either voting a straight R ticket anyway or is huffing paint in the lolbertarian port-a-potty. He's irrelevant.

2. Support for gun control among moderates evaporates quickly in the face of reality. Sure, bad guns are bad in the bad hands of bad people who are bad. But when they talk about waiting periods or a Democrat gets up and shows an AR-15 (an extremely popular weapon due to price, availability, and being in all those AWESOME Call of Duty games!) as some kind of baby-killing machine: they tend to balk. Because they aren't the problem and they want to buy a gun when whenever they want to and that gun is cool and THEY WANT IT NOW, so why should they be hassled by the government?

In my experience, what moderates want is gun control that works, but doesn't hassle them in any shape or form. This is why moderate gun owners hate waiting periods, but don't bitch about background checks.

On the flip side, if Republicans could drop their "hate the darkies" bullshit, they might be able to find a lot of support among (at least) the Hispanic population. I know so many socially conservative, but in actuality fairly moderate, Hispanics who vote Democrat because they believe (for good fucking reason) that Republicans hate them and want them out of the country. If they were white, I'd bet a couple bucks they'd vote straight (R). Not courting them to plan for the future is... whatever: American Politics 101 I guess.

I mean, who would they piss off? Racist white conservatives? Ok, so what? Who are racist white guys going to vote for if not Jack Johnson(R)? John Jackson(D)? Pfft.
Khaat wrote:So this I don't know a lot about:
1) I thought it had begun under Bush and was continued by Obama, and yep:
Bush was a moron (as is anyone who thought digging No Child Left Behind out of the legislature dumpster pile was a good idea) and is just as culpable as Obama for getting people killed when they let the ATF lose track of thousands of guns they allowed to be sold to foreign nationals. But Bush and his party also didn't have a habit of trying to pass blame for gun violence off on people like me. And "people like me" also encompass a large (otherwise) moderate base who don't think of guns as murder-machines and don't enjoy being listed as part of the problem.

I don't agree with the DEAs horseshit and a I damn sure don't agree with what the ATF has been pulling either.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

Aether wrote:I don't disagree with that we are all the human race, nor do I disagree that racism, or bigotry and/or xenophobia have lasting affects. It still isn't racism with the examples you provided. There is a spectrum: racism, bigotry, prejudice, and bias. This is all but forgotten. Supposedly, white people are only capable of racism. Other races who say/do the same thing toward whites is "only" bigotry, yet if one minority says/do something against another minority then it is upgrade to racism. Or is it only still considered to be bigotry? I'm confused with the relative racism purported by the left nowadays. Pardon me if I simply call bullshit.
I find it interesting that you use the passive voice so much here.

The passive voice has an interesting feature: it lets you write sentences with no subject. Normally, a coherent sentence in English has a subject, a verb, or an object: "I eat pizza." There is a clearly defined process of eating, a specific person to do the eating, and a specific thing that is eaten.

But with the passive voice, you can say "pizza is eaten," without knowing who ate the pizza.

One of the rhetorical uses of the passive voice is to blame other people for what you think is happening. You can do this regardless of whether it's actually happening in real life. And regardless of whether you know who's responsible, even if it is happening.
Was every German during Hitler's rule a member of the Nazi party? I don't think so, but they were still used as foot-soldiers against Hitler's enemies; Germans soldiers still killed an died for something they "maybe didn't really believe in." Oh, sure, he got Germany out of crushing inflation, paralyzing political gridlock, a national identity crisis, and Made Germany Great Again(tm), and it only cost....
Bill Maher actually came out and said that he wished the left didn't lambast McCain and Romney as racists. John Stewart remarked on the liberal hypocrisy of treating all of Trump voters as one racist monolith. Michael Moore's Trumpland was a discussion with Trump supporters. Moore even said himself that he understood why people are angry; especially at the lack of jobs. For the record I know those types of jobs are not coming back in a global ecomony. But it's easier to do to throw shade at an entire group of people who made the same choice but out of different reasons. Some are racists. Others poo-pooed what they saw as over the top rhetoric. Still others are ignorant and didn't believe, in their opinion, was a biased media against an outsider. You may certainly disagree with Trump and feel that many of them were bamboozled (as I do), but your comparison to the rise of Hitler and Germans as culpable is a gross hyperbole.
You missed the point of the comparison.

The point is, if you enable a leader to do a bad thing, when you really should have known better than to back him... Exactly how much of the responsibility for his actions can you deny? Can you claim that just because you aren't fanatically devoted to everything he does, you're in no way responsible for the fact that he did bad things?

People who voted Trump into office are not, as a rule, Nazis... but they have some explaining to do. Because "Yeah, I was really mad and this orange guy said that we could fix my problem by building a wall and deporting all the Muslims and that it would be great if that psychobitch he was running against went to jail" is not an excuse for supporting someone who does terrible things.

Using the example of the World War Two Germans illustrates the point very well- most of us agree that the German people showed culpable negligence, and willful blindness to the evil they were enabling. The Germans themselves were very uncomfortable with that after they'd had time to sit down and think about what they'd done. In hindsight, even they look back and think "How could we have been so gullible as to support Hitler?" Many of them did have misgivings, or saw the warning signs... but out of a misguided sense of nationalist loyalty they did not act on their misgivings. And therefore, their misgivings became irrelevant.

And a lesser echo of this can reasonably be applied to almost every corrupt or malevolent political figure in history.

Some Republicans didn't vote for Trump, because his vile character and lunatic policies disgusted them. A lot of independent voters reacted the same way. For those who did, the question is "You knew he was a vile person, and unless you were as ignorant and irresponsible as a small child you must have had reason to wonder if his policies could be implemented. You knew he was making broad racial generalizations about groups of people that are in almost all cases harmless and innocent. You knew he had the support of lunatic racists, and probably for a reason. So what were you thinking?"

Citizens in a democracy have a responsibility to know who and what they support, and to comprehend the realistic consequences of policies proposed by the people running for office. If you can't be a thinking voter, you don't deserve to be a voter at all.
But I do agree with you that he has bamboozled his supporters especially with jobs and "Draining the Swamp." He has emboldened a small portion of the electorate who are legitimate racists and the other people who he fooled will find out real soon how well they had it under Obama.
Yes- but if we as a nation are going to learn from this, we do have to be willing to ask some hard questions. Like "what thought process led me to willingly abet this sack of filth's path to the White House, and how can I never make a mistake like that again?"

We will not escape this problem with the same kind of thinking that got us into it. And as individuals we won't learn anything from the disaster if we don't resolve to change our ways.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by K. A. Pital »

Simon wrote:If you can't be a thinking voter, you don't deserve to be a voter at all.
You are bordering dangerously on calling to disenfranchise people you dislike. Or people whose opinions you dislike.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Flagg »

K. A. Pital wrote:
Simon wrote:If you can't be a thinking voter, you don't deserve to be a voter at all.
You are bordering dangerously on calling to disenfranchise people you dislike. Or people whose opinions you dislike.
It's an easy trap to fall into, unfortunately. It used to be that Republicans were the party of African American civil rights, and I knew a guy whose mother straight ticketed every Republican all the way through the Reagan and Bush 41 Administrations and the first (and only, she died in '95 IIRC) Democrat she voted for was Bill Clinton.

I mean it's tempting to require people to prove at least basic knowledge of the issues, but that way lies voter suppression and the specter of "literacy tests" from the Jim Crow era.
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