Clear evidence federation shields are not immune to lasers

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-03-25 12:55am

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... hield2.jpg

This image is from Mr Wong's stardestroyer.net federation shields page. You could clearly see a borg laser striking the Enterprise's shields. This proves beyond all doubt that federation shields are not impervious to lasers. So far the argument to the fact that borg cube's mount lasers is that cube's use shield disruptors to drain the shields and then use the cutting lasers againts the hull. However this image clearly shows a borg cube using lasers againts the shields. The cube up against a fleet 300 federation ships in the battle of Sector 001 and should have been diverting all power to shields and weopens and not fired the laser if it was not going to hurt the Enterprise.

This also explains the comment in "the outraegous okona". The laser in that episode was much weaker than borg lasers so it was no threat to the enterprise which can easily withstand 64 megaton torpedoes. The borg on the other hand with their superior technology were able to build much stronger lasers capable damaging federation shields.

The bottom line is that a laser with sufficient power can destroy any federation ship

Don't fuck up the format with huge pics and ask Mike next time you use his pics ~ Stormbringer

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-03-25 12:59am

Old, old, old, old, old, old, old, old, news.

In fact there was a thread about this in the PST a little while ago.

*sets up locking beacon, signal set for MODS*

Come hither mods, and do thy duty.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-25 01:04am

I see no reason to lock it at this point but it will be watched.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-03-25 01:34am

I never even frequent the vs. board, and I knew this was an old argument...

BTW, the Borg use Phasers (or equivalent beam weapon), not lasers, far as I know.[/img]

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-03-25 04:03am

Still, being that there are so many things that can reflect light with more than half efficiency (white surfaces and mirrors come to mind?) surely lasers are a poor weapon to use in any futuristic war?

E.g. I imagine that if you were to shoulder a laser rifle with enough power to burn holes through armour you'd also have to wear heavy protective gear yourself to prevent being permanently blinded and your whole body scorched by the reflected energy!

What about the efficiency rating for those warhead-intercepting lasers mounted on US navy aircraft?

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-03-25 04:25am

Can someone explain to me why I can sometimes edit my posts but usually can't??

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-03-25 04:51am

JodoForce wrote:Can someone explain to me why I can sometimes edit my posts but usually can't??

The edit function is disabled in Sw vs ST, OSF, Hos, and PSW, I believe. We've had dishonest people come in here and edit their posts so they could claim they didn't say such and such, etc. It can be a pain, but in the long run, it keeps you on your toes.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-03-25 05:13am

evilcat4000 wrote:http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... hield2.jpg

This image is from Mr Wong's stardestroyer.net federation shields page. You could clearly see a borg laser striking the Enterprise's shields. This proves beyond all doubt that federation shields are not impervious to lasers. So far the argument to the fact that borg cube's mount lasers is that cube's use shield disruptors to drain the shields and then use the cutting lasers againts the hull. However this image clearly shows a borg cube using lasers againts the shields. The cube up against a fleet 300 federation ships in the battle of Sector 001 and should have been diverting all power to shields and weopens and not fired the laser if it was not going to hurt the Enterprise.

This also explains the comment in "the outraegous okona". The laser in that episode was much weaker than borg lasers so it was no threat to the enterprise which can easily withstand 64 megaton torpedoes. The borg on the other hand with their superior technology were able to build much stronger lasers capable damaging federation shields.

The bottom line is that a laser with sufficient power can destroy any federation ship

Don't fuck up the format with huge pics and ask Mike next time you use his pics ~ Stormbringer

The borg laser was used against the hull of the E-D, the shields were already down. Nobody ever claimed the hull was invunerable to laser.

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2003-03-25 05:16am

JodoForce wrote:Still, being that there are so many things that can reflect light with more than half efficiency (white surfaces and mirrors come to mind?) surely lasers are a poor weapon to use in any futuristic war?

Reflectivity depends on frequency, and decent optical surfaces are delicate, and more importantly expensive.

E.g. I imagine that if you were to shoulder a laser rifle with enough power to burn holes through armour you'd also have to wear heavy protective gear yourself to prevent being permanently blinded and your whole body scorched by the reflected energy!

You don't think that white or highly reflective armour would make the user somewhat conspicous? That aside, I don't really think that hand-held lasers capable of taking on armour are likely.

What about the efficiency rating for those warhead-intercepting lasers mounted on US navy aircraft?

Compared to...?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-03-25 08:23am

Frank Hipper wrote:
JodoForce wrote:Can someone explain to me why I can sometimes edit my posts but usually can't??
The edit function is disabled in Sw vs ST, OSF, Hos, and PSW, I believe. We've had dishonest people come in here and edit their posts so they could claim they didn't say such and such, etc. It can be a pain, but in the long run, it keeps you on your toes.

It's not disabled in PSW anymore, and damn if it's ever disabled again

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-03-25 08:34am

I dunno, I just want to know how many % of the light energy put out by the laser contributes towards destroying the warhead, (and how much is just reflected off the warhead in all directions) never mind how many % of the energy put into the laser comes out as light energy...

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-03-26 12:30pm

The edit function is disabled in Sw vs ST, OSF, Hos, and PSW, I believe. We've had dishonest people come in here and edit their posts so they could claim they didn't say such and such, etc. It can be a pain, but in the long run, it keeps you on your toes.

Finally, a straightforward answer to that question!

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-03-26 12:31pm

It's not disabled in PSW anymore, and damn if it's ever disabled again

Ok.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-26 02:59pm

Welcome, JodoForce! I'll draft a memorandum of welcome for you from Grey Six. You should receive it either today or tomorrow...

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-26 09:23pm

jegs2 wrote:Welcome, JodoForce! I'll draft a memorandum of welcome for you from Grey Six. You should receive it either today or tomorrow...

Stand by for transmission from Coruscant................................
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transmission commensing:

Department of the Imperial Army
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Coruscant

MEMORANDUM FOR RECORD
Subject: Welcome

Newbie:

Welcome to StarDestroyer.net. You have volunteered service within the Galactic Empire, and your conduct on this board will be IAW standards set forth by the moderators and owner of said board. Breach of those terms will result in your immediate arrest, interrogation, and subsequent execution. Let me take this opportunity to welcome you to Imperial service.

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Commanding

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-03-26 11:10pm

The No Laser argument is the oldest lame trekkie cope out ever. It's something they pull when they really get desperate. The funny thing is that it is one of the easiest arguments to refute.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-03-27 02:34pm

Not that I disagree with the whole "Trek is vulnerable to lasers" arguement but.... Um... refresh my memory but how do you know that is a Borg "laser" being fired at the Ent=E? It looks more like a tractor beam than the Borg laser. The borg laser is a thinner line similar to phaser and disruptor shots, the tractor beam is wider as in the pic shown. Anyone else agree or disagree with me here?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-03-27 02:57pm

Dialouge.

The Enterprise crew refers to it as a "laser" (and not nameless ensigns either).

There's also the instance (forget what episode sorry) where Picard seems afraid to enter the space of two warring factions that are using "lasers."

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-03-27 02:58pm

Heck, the Federation used "lasers" in Captain Pike's time (see "The Cage" and "The Menagerie" TOS).

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-03-27 04:35pm

Kurgan wrote:Dialouge.

The Enterprise crew refers to it as a "laser" (and not nameless ensigns either).

There's also the instance (forget what episode sorry) where Picard seems afraid to enter the space of two warring factions that are using "lasers."

No they don't. Thats a picture from FC. Thats a Borg Tractor Beam.

Regardless. The times the Borg HAVE used their cutting lasers on the E-D, the shields have collapsed first. Each time they attack UFP ships, they use the Tractor beam to drain the shield grid, then once the shields are down, THEN they use the laser to start slicing and dicing the UFP ship.

Regardless, I think 99% of people know Rikers comment in OO is mearly saying that the lasers THOSE ships were using, primitive and low powered lasers, would not have enough power to get through the navigational shields on the E-D. Not that NO lasers would get through ever, that was NOT what he said.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-03-28 09:51am

Death from the Sea wrote:Not that I disagree with the whole "Trek is vulnerable to lasers" arguement but.... Um... refresh my memory but how do you know that is a Borg "laser" being fired at the Ent=E? It looks more like a tractor beam than the Borg laser. The borg laser is a thinner line similar to phaser and disruptor shots, the tractor beam is wider as in the pic shown. Anyone else agree or disagree with me here?

What you mean is that tractor beam-slash-shield sucker that locks the ship in place while it starts losing shield integrity. The laser is that red (was it red) thin line that cuts a piece of the hull.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-03-28 09:57am

Oh and the claim is that "lasers can't even penetrate the navigational deflector", not the main shields. Of course the shields are going to protect against lasers the same way they protect from anything else, by draining some energy bank. The "navigational deflector", on the other hand, isn't something that is turned on or off in battles, it's something that is always on and prevents damage from micrometeorites.

The comment "lasers? that can't even penetrate our navigational deflector!" is a stupid comment, sorta like "that wouldn't even damage our ship if we had our shields down! what weaklings! lasers are puny puny puny! they make me laugh! ha!"

So even if the main shields are down, there's no reason to think that the navigational deflector is also disabled. This proves that the ship isn't absurdly immune to lasers of any power level.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-03-28 02:56pm

evilcat4000 wrote:http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... hield2.jpg

This image is from Mr Wong's stardestroyer.net federation shields page. You could clearly see a borg laser striking the Enterprise's shields. This proves beyond all doubt that federation shields are not impervious to lasers.

Two things:

One, it looked like one of their tractor beams to me.

Two, as I recall, the E-E's shields held against that attack. I'm sure they were drained somewhat but we can't confirm that. So how is this absolute proof that lasers hurt shields?

You're also inadvertently mischaracterizing Rabid Trekkies' claim about lasers: they claim the navigation deflectors, not combat shields, are "immune."

So far the argument to the fact that borg cube's mount lasers is that cube's use shield disruptors to drain the shields and then use the cutting lasers againts the hull. However this image clearly shows a borg cube using lasers againts the shields. The cube up against a fleet 300 federation ships in the battle of Sector 001 and should have been diverting all power to shields and weopens and not fired the laser if it was not going to hurt the Enterprise.

Well, as I said, I don't think it's confirmed that it's a laser beam...that thing definitely didn't look like the "type of laser beam" that "carved up" the E-D "like a roast."

I would not necessarily agree that the beam used against the E-E was entirely offensive in nature, though Borg tractors *do* drain shields and are at least in part an anti-ship weapon. I agree that the cube should have been fighting for its life at that stage, though, regardless of however many ships it had encountered prior to that scene (which we do not know; I suspect it's more than the few we saw at Earth, but hundreds?).
At that stage of the fight it had taken some damage and should not have been fucking around with grabbing ships in tractor beams.

This also explains the comment in "the outraegous okona". The laser in that episode was much weaker than borg lasers so it was no threat to the enterprise which can easily withstand 64 megaton torpedoes. The borg on the other hand with their superior technology were able to build much stronger lasers capable damaging federation shields.

The bottom line is that a laser with sufficient power can destroy any federation ship

Oh, definitely, yes. I agree with your conclusion whole-heartedly, just not the reasoning that takes you there.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-03-28 04:18pm

Just for fun, some screen caps from "Q Who" (TNG)

E-D caught in Borg tractor beam, which begins to drain their shields.

With their shields down, "a type of laser beam" (according to Worf) is focused on the E-D's hull.

The laser begins the process of "...carving us up like a roast" (Riker).

Carved out decks are being pulled towards the Borg ship with their tractor beam.
Notice the difference between the TB itself and the laser beam in the previous shot.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-03-28 04:21pm

We're actually dealing with two tractors beams here, obviously, the first one holding the ship, and the second one tractoring in the severed decks.

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