Something big

[Sea Skimmer]

So like a more compact TIE Defender wing?

You know I kind of forgot about the TIE Defender. But yeah more compact, and without the pillar prior to the split in the wing. The TIE Defender never really looked right to me anyway.

[Elheru Aran]

So like a more compact TIE Defender wing?

You know I kind of forgot about the TIE Defender. But yeah more compact, and without the pillar prior to the split in the wing. The TIE Defender never really looked right to me anyway.

Reminds me a little more of the TIE Phantom. It has the same blade-like look to the fins.

[Sea Skimmer]

No argument re: Falklands. Interesting that the Admiralty argued for closer action to conserve ammunition (sensible if one expects to have to fight without replenishing; less so if engagements are fewer and farther between, which all things considered seems more likely).

The total RN supply of high caliber ammo was just not that high in 1914. That stuff was very expensive, a complete outfit and was something like 8-10% of the cost of the ship. Buying more ammo prewar would have meant fewer ships got built.

We have no idea if big turbolasers have high costs per shot or not, but they sure seem like they can't be cheap to keep operating. It's a logic of weapons design in general that you keep increasing performance until economics stop you. If you could make an economical turbolaser you could make a lighter or more powerful one that was less economical.

For that matter, might not Blucher's fate at Dogger Bank be one more argument in favor of the theory of the battlecruiser, at that time? As you say, the doctrine of over-match. And, of course, exploring the battlecruiser fully, takes one deep into Fisher's tactical and strategic mindset (heavier guns to permit exactly the sort of long-ranged, one-sided engagement that was achieved at the Falklands; battlecruisers in general intended to allow economy on overseas protection, while focusing on submarines and other torpedo craft in home waters, to permit the economies that he promised when he was made First Sea Lord).

Well under Fisher's original doctrine Dogger Bank would have just never taken place, some swarming hoard of torpedo craft would have been tearing around in circles trying to annoy the Germans, and the strategic irrelevance of the bombardment of British coastal towns would just be ignored for what it was, useless. Dogger Bank I did not cite because it basically just argues for fast battleships, which is how you suddenly inflate to a displacement of 40,000 tons or greater as found on Hood/Nagato and the cost explodes. Which is why everyone was resisting doing it so hard so long.

In space though you don't have to build dry docks or ports to hold your ships, so only raw technical capability holds back how big you can build them at any given moment.

I think it was Fractal who noted that if Star Wars damage is measured in the aggregate, the heavier hull types would still have the potential to permanently remove force from a swarming fleet quickly (I think that observation may be what drew me to studying the Restoration navy, what little I can find on it).

Yeah. That's sensitive though, to if the smaller ships can destroy weapons emplacements on the bigger ship or not. If they still can then they'll have a big advantage in the aggregate situation because they can concentrate their attack on only part of the enemy, everyone fire at one beam, while being less vulnerable overall to total loss of force.

So, in a pitched battle, the Force would seem to be on the side of the big-ships.

The logic of making battleships bigger is ultimately infalliable if you build them bigger enough!

Of course, a war is more than the heaviest pitched battle. But, intermediate classes do feel potentially wasteful. Perhaps the strongest argument there is economic? Even the Empire has finite resources. Other than the occasional Separtist and individual-polity (i.e. Mon Cal) heavy, how big an average unit do you need to impose whatever your Empire wants to impose?

Given how huge the trade federation cargo ships where it may be that something like an ISD is needed just to reliably police that sort of traffic.

[23 November 1939]

The total RN supply of high caliber ammo was just not that high in 1914. That stuff was very expensive, a complete outfit and was something like 8-10% of the cost of the ship. Buying more ammo prewar would have meant fewer ships got built.

Fascinating. Many thanks for the insight of ammo load as a portion of cost. Had never really considered that as a pre-war trade-off, nor its repercussions, particularly in the early part of the war. Any word on the quality of particular batches? (the shortcomings of British shells are well known, and I know they were point of emphasis post-Jutland, but do we know if prewar stocks were more, less, or differently inferior to wartime production?)

The logic of making battleships bigger is ultimately infalliable if you build them bigger enough!
[snip]
Given how huge the trade federation cargo ships where it may be that something like an ISD is needed just to reliably police that sort of traffic.

Fair points both. Funny to think of the ISD being the Crown Vic of the space lanes.

[fractalsponge1]

Gallery up:

Velox-class Star Frigate:

[Adam Reynolds]

Another possibility with Executor is that it was designed specifically for sieges in the aftermath of the Death Star being destroyed. Something with the firepower and survivability to stand up to planetary defenses more than a standard ISD, which were rather vulnerable to the ion cannon at Hoth. It also would be large enough to house a proper invasion army, which an ISD does not exactly have. A fleet of them would, but it could also be a means to have the one ship handle all aspects of the invasion, leaving the star destoryers to handle blockade duties as they did over Hoth.

In effect it is a hybrid between a monitor, command ship, and amphibious assault ship. That would also explain why it doesn't have much in the way of effectiveness over Endor as it was never actually optimized for fleet actions.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hmmm... a super large, supplies-loaded, long-lasting high endurance and practically armaments-brimming supercapital ship would be a better tool for... long-distance invasion and occupation and ass-kicking in large expanses versus built-up opponents, either extra-galactic ones or near-peer competitor threats either far away or not-so-far away but of sufficient territorial depth that ISDs might not be long-legged enough to sufficiently invade>crush>occupy without support ships and convoys.

Because ISDs already do the job when it comes to domestic suppression and patrol within the Galactic Empire's territories. Super Star Destroyers are overkill against Rebels. The SSDs need to be against something that can fight back, something in circumstances that standard ISDs can't handle and might tax entire ISD formations.

So either Unknown Regions opponents, extra-galactic ones... or maybe if post-Alderaan things turn to shit and entire major powers like the Corellians secede... a Galactic Civil War that's more than just a Rebels-kind of insurgency but Clone Wars-level bad. Because against the Rebels, Imperial power projection isn't a concern because the Rebels are an insurgency *within* the Empire, so I'd assume power projection isn't a worry. But Clone Wars-levels, when entire swaths of space are *outside* the Empire and thus not-domestic... that's when power projection becomes a major issue.

[Abacus]

I think I missed it in the kerfuffle over shields and the Executor, but what were the stats of the new Velox-class Frigate?

[fractalsponge1]

Velox notes:
3900g acceleration, 2e22W, 12 200GT MTL, 6 medium ion cannon, 22 LTL, 10 heavy laser. Carriage 1 company troops, Mu class shuttle, stormtrooper transport, utility craft, 1 flight of recon fighter.

Light fleet tanker idea. The Altor-class was designed to fuel and replenish Star Dreadnoughts and Star Destroyer squadrons. This ship handles destroyers and smaller ships, and is about 900m long.

[Weedle McHairybug]

Say, isn't that light fleet tanker the same as the one from Rogue Squadron II: Rogue Leader? You know, this one?

[Adam Reynolds]

Is there a consensus on how much Star Wars vessels need to be refueled?

[fractalsponge1]

Say, isn't that light fleet tanker the same as the one from Rogue Squadron II: Rogue Leader? You know, this one?

Sorta similar tank layout, but about 6 times longer if the Wookiepedia figures are to be believed. The Rogue Leader ship is corvette sized, and this is destroyer sized.

Is there a consensus on how much Star Wars vessels need to be refueled?

If there is I'm not aware of it. Certainly fuel tanks seem to be relatively a small proportion of total ship volume. Fuel containing complex mass also makes it difficult to get a sense of the real physical requirements of hypermatter.

[fractalsponge1]

[Abacus]

Tanker is looking nice. Seems like it'll be somewhere in the corvette range of size, no?

[FTeik]

Tanker is looking nice. Seems like it'll be somewhere in the corvette range of size, no?

Just take a look at Fractal's second-last post.

[Abacus]

Ba-doi....I feel foolish now.

[Lord Revan]

Maybe it's just me but those tanks seem a bit exposed like there should be a lower armor plates in addition to the top ones.

[fractalsponge1]

Maybe it's just me but those tanks seem a bit exposed like there should be a lower armor plates in addition to the top ones.

Same logic as the Altor:
1) Artwise, it needs to look like a tanker, and individual tanks look good. Fully enclosed it looks like any other warship.
2) Design wise - spend mass and cost on armor, or on more fuel carried and shields?

[The_Saint]

Considering what it's carrying and how much it is carrying compared to overall hull volume I suspect the last place this ships wants to be is anywhere where it might need armour.

I would suspect the intent would be for sufficient shielding against asteroids/debris and a single armoured side to act as cover in case of shield failure.

Anything else you wave the white flag, With various ideas about the cost of fuel I suspect this is a ship people would rather capture intact than destroy.


Overall it reminds me of the descriptions of Bacta tankers from the Rogue Squadron novels.

[fractalsponge1]

The intent is to get out of trouble whenever possible, but the role of these ships requires combat shielding, and relatively strong shielding at that. They replenish warships under deployment, and so are a prime target for enemy forces to destroy, not capture. If surprised while attached to other ships and thus unable to immediately jump, the defenses need to be rather strong.

So this ship could take some destroyer fire on its shields, but would be wide open once the shields fail, due to lack of armor. The much larger Altor would take some battlecruiser fire, with the same limitations if it couldn't escape to hyperspace before the shields gave out.

[Shroom Man 777]

Perhaps the enormous tanks can be jettisoned during extreme circumstances or removed when the rest of the ship is undergoing maintenance. A modular design might also mean other sister-classes might not have the tanks+refueling mechanisms but they might use that freed space to carry other things.

Or a modified tanker-ship for firefighting! Enough coolant to douse out a burning Golan-class defense platform!

Or a mobile interstellar shield generator for areas that might need temporary defense-boosts.

OR a mobile hypermatter reactor - kind of like those Russian nuclear reactor barges that can sail up to remote coastal communities and provide power for them during winters!

Grain haulers.

HEIGHLINERS!

[fractalsponge1]

[Abacus]

I agree with Ansel on this. The tanker needs to look like a tanker -- and they need to rely on speed and shielding far more than armor.

[fractalsponge1]

[Eternal_Freedom]

As glorious as that is, those domes on the bridge tower look a little disproportionate to the tower itself.