Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

[Crazedwraith]

I'd figure the problem with Warp Strafing would more be targeting issues. The right time to fire at an STL target when an FTL must be absolutely tiny.

[Lord Revan]

That short targeting window was what I was refering to when I talked about the rate of fire.

[WATCH-MAN]

then SHOW US THAT IT IS SO RISKY!

We know that the Dominion would rather risk fighting the defenses of DS9 at Sublight instead of strafing from the safety of warp, so that risk must be quite high as the founders aren't known to care about the solids they rule.

Don't you notice that you are giving the evidence you asked for yourself?

As you are saying it yourself: "We know that the Dominion would rather risk fighting the defenses of DS9 at Sublight instead of strafing from the safety of warp, so that risk must be quite high."

That's exact what I deem possible.

Using warp within a solar system may be riskier than "fighting the defenses of DS9 at Sublight".

Although I do not claim that this is the case. I'm not the one who has made claims. There may be other reasons why they did not use warp strafing to attack DS9.

Fact is that we have several instances which are implying that warp within a solar system is dangerous. We have several instances in which warp was used within a solar system. Not few of these instances are one and the same. They used warp within a solar system but portrayed it as an exception, as something hazardous. We know that the Dominion would "rather risk fighting the defenses of DS9 at Sublight instead of strafing from the safety of warp."

These are the facts.

What is your theory?

Why didn't the used warp strafing to attack DS9 - although warp within a solar system is possible?

Yet you've shown us nothing, not a single thing.

What am I supposed to show you?

Have I made any claims for which I have to provide evidence?

the thing about Redemtion it was in close orbit of a STAR, you known that the Sun has more mass then the rest of solar system combinied, if going to warp from the orbit of an typical m-class planet posed signifigant enough risk that it done rarely because of that risk, then going to warp from orbit of a star would outright impossible.

Maybe it is not the mass that makes flying within a solar system risky - especially when they are flying away from it. Maybe it has more to do with navigational hazards.

[WATCH-MAN]

I'd figure the problem with Warp Strafing would more be targeting issues. The right time to fire at an STL target when an FTL must be absolutely tiny.

That may be a reason.

Convincing it is not.

Knowing where exactly DS9 is they have enough time to calculate when exactly they have to fire their weapons. They have FTL sensors. And their weapons - especially their torpedoes - are FTL weapons and should be able to compensate for small derivations from the calculations.

[Crazedwraith]

I'd figure the problem with Warp Strafing would more be targeting issues. The right time to fire at an STL target when an FTL must be absolutely tiny.

That may be a reason.

Convincing it is not.

Knowing where exactly DS9 is they have enough time to calculate when exactly they have to fire their weapons. They have FTL sensors. And their weapons - especially their torpedoes - are FTL weapons and should be able to compensate for small derivations from the calculations.

To quote you yourself. Prove it. Prove they can make the calculations necessary. Prove they can fire their weapons in the necessary time frame. You're making the positive claim. That Warp-strafing is a viable tactic, prove it.

[NecronLord]

I simply have asked you to provide evidence for your claim that

• Kirk is used to warp straight out of orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason and
• Picard orders warp speed while still in orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.

These were your claims and I simply wondered if they are true, if what we really know about the Star Trek universe from what we have seen on-screen supports such conclusions.

Watch Man. This information has been provided - people have shown that 50% of randomly selected episodes contain this. Post your concession or a rebuttal with evidence in your next post or I will reprimand you for violation of DR5 for demanding that people prove a negative.

[FireNexus]

There is no evidence that warp strafing is used, so there must be a reason. Didn't the ED have to match warp with a vessel to exchange fire with it? Given how we know warp drives work, maybe crossing the boundary between the subspace bubble and the normal unwarped space is enough to shred the sensitive electronics needed for a photon.

Mass drivers wouldn't have a super high relatively velocity out of warp because they were never actually accelerated. And phasers may well get lensed into uselessness by the boundary as well. No matter the warping in system, we've never seen a warp strafe or heard one mentioned in any of the military engagements shown. Including by the Borg.

Looks like a duck. Quacks like a duck.

[Khaat]

The only incident of "warp strafing" I can think of was in Journey to Babel, with the Orion vessel shadowing the Enterprise "buzzes" them at high speed ("approximately Warp 10"). After the spy on board is caught, the ship makes actual attack runs at Warp 8 ("They're moving too fast for us."), then is finally drawn in at sublight speeds by playing 'possum (all power except phasers cut and allowed to drift), and it is destroyed (well, damaged it, then it self-destructed to avoid capture/identification.) Spock reaches the conclusion that the enemy ship was on a suicide mission, thus burned-out their engines for the power displayed (scout-vessel sized, armed with standard phasers.)

They never give the Enterprise's speed during the enemy ship's attack runs, but they were on their way to Babel for a conference, delegates from different member worlds aboard; one would presume at (timely yet safe) warp speed.

[Simon_Jester]

There was another TOS episode, Elaan of Troyius, where the Enterprise's warp drive is sabotaged, and a Klingon ship attacks the Enterprise. Maneuvering on impulse power, they are unable to keep up with the Klingons, indicating that the Klingon ship is moving at warp.*

However, in this case it's unclear whether the Enterprise is unable to defend itself effectively because it's stuck at impulse while the enemy moves at warp... Or whether the Enterprise is unable to defend itself because the sabotage to the warp core took out power for the phasers.
___________________

*Editing in a footnote: probably moving at warp. We have no special reason to think that Klingon warships are vastly faster or more maneuverable than the Enterprise, when both ships are traveling at impulse power.

[Prometheus Unbound]

There is no evidence that warp strafing is used, so there must be a reason. Didn't the ED have to match warp with a vessel to exchange fire with it? Given how we know warp drives work, maybe crossing the boundary between the subspace bubble and the normal unwarped space is enough to shred the sensitive electronics needed for a photon.

They only have to match speed exactly for transporting - which of course makes sense because of what they're doing with molecules and it only has a 40,000km range-radius around the ship so if one is going warp 9 and the other at warp 9.0001, they're gonna be out of range in less than the 6 seconds it takes to cycle a transporter beam.

Phasers have to be within a limited range also - about 300,000km (1 light second, give or take) which is shown in The Wounded as being the maximum weapons range for the Phoenix - which ties in to The Die is Cast when the Defiant is charging (and later half rams) a dominion battle-bug. As the 200,000km range is called out (they're charing toward it) the ships are already firing at the Defiant and hitting it nearly every other shot (though Defiant is dodging in an evasive pattern). The ones that do miss are by the tens of metres - not bad targeting for 200,000 km with light speed limited weapons on something performing evasive maneuvers at a quarter the speed of light or so (they close range within like 10 seconds or something).

At warp, phasers can be used at these distances - this is shown in a number of episodes in TOS where they fire phasers at warp. This is shown in Treachery Faith and the Great River as a runabout piloted by Odo is engaged by a Jem Hadar fighter. Odo and Weyoun are flying all around the battle-bug at warp (they circle it at warp), get behind it and fire phasers. But the speeds may as well be matched we're talking perhaps 10-20 m/s difference I think.

Phasers have also been done at warp by Voyager at least once although I forget the episode. Again though it was at visual ranges, not at the 300,000 range IIRC.


Photons are a whole other story - you can lob those at warp as much as you want - and presumably I suppose hit a stationary target with them - I see absolutely no reason why this would not be so - it's a physical thing that would just need to be targetted very carefully (see the accuracy shown above for phasers). But they don't. Once or twice on TOS perhaps but I can't recall an instance in the movies onwards (excepting perhaps the Asteroid in TMP? Not sure if that was dragged into warp by accident by the enterprise's warp field or what but it was in the wormhole with them and looked to be stationary but idk there was time lag and distortions) where torpedoes have been fired from warp to something *out* of warp. Plenty of times of them doing it at warp to something else at warp.

There's one instance of either 6.7 or 6.9 million km distance between Voyager and the ship its chasing (or is being chased by, I can't remember) and they are firing torps at it as the distances closes - ergo it's not dependent on the same speed.

Voyager also does this to the Equinox but at a lesser range.

Enterprise D has fired on Q (or well in his direction) whilst at warp as well. And they were firing on the Borg Cube in Q Who with aft torpedoes to a ship that was faster than them. There's probably 5 other specific examples I can dig up if you like.

But never of a torpedo hitting something stationary or not at warp.

And I really don't know why. It makes no sense that it'd not be the case. If not from the Enterprise or Voyager doing it (because they don't tend to chase ships down firing the second they're in range, normally - they always, ALWAYS open comms first - and any time they ARE chasing and firing at warp the other ship is already "oh shit" and also at warp trying to get away from them) then at least the Klingons or Romulans or something - many times they've done "sneak attacks" on ships and fired without warning - so why not be firing for like 10 seconds before you arrive, so you arrive at the same time as, I dunno, 25 photon torpedoes also in warp and smack them all at once - if that makes sense?

I don't know why they don't. I can tell you they don't do it and there must be some reason because why on earth wouldn't it work? Starships can ram stuff at warp to do damage (Best of Both Worlds) and Dreadnought (the cardassian missile) was essentially a giant photon torpedo with warp engines.


Perhaps its something about the warp sustainer mechanism they use? I can't think why, but perhaps it's a case of if it's fired at sublight it can't hit stuff at warp and if its fired at warp, it can only hit things at warp.

Or maybe the maximum range is like 10 million km or something - that's the longest range we've heard called from Voyager on a torpedo - that isn't very far when you're at high warp trying to land a hit on a target. Maybe torps can't maneuver at warp like they can at impulse which means the ship firing it literally has to be *facing* the stationary target - and yeah at ranges of 10 million km at high warp maybe it's really dangerous to try to do that and "pull out the way" at the last second cos u aint got many seconds mate.

Could that be it?

Yes.

And I still have to check if what you claim is correct.

Why in gods name would I give a list of citations and time (they're all literally the last sentences spoken per episode) if not true? haha.


http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/

Check 'em out there. It'll be the last couple of paragraphs per episode

Feel free to search seasons 3 onward and Voyager etc as well.

[Sea Skimmer]

It would kind of make sense if warp-sublight fire did not work, because the moment your weapons left the warp bubble...you hit them. That might also explain why they can't fire aft, for physical reasons the fire at sublight speed, can't account for the relative whatever the hell we call velocity at that point part, difference. So they will never hit and keep moving with the ship. Matched speed warp-warp combat meanwhile just works.

[Prometheus Unbound]

It would kind of make sense if warp-sublight fire did not work, because the moment your weapons left the warp bubble...you hit them. That might also explain why they can't fire aft, for physical reasons the fire at sublight speed, can't account for the relative whatever the hell we call velocity at that point part, difference. So they will never hit and keep moving with the ship. Matched speed warp-warp combat meanwhile just works.

They do aft fire at warp. They do it in Encounter at Far Point and Q Who off the top of my head.

Voyager has also done this - I'll try to find which ep if you want...

Borg have also fired at ships behind them (S8472 bio ship) whilst at maximum warp, and Equinox was firing back at Voyager as well (off screen) and landing hits that were penetrating the shields.

[Sea Skimmer]

But aft at warp to sublight in that? I do not recall that ever. As long as both are at warp speed you don't have the light/sublight closing problem. Not that warp makes sense in the first place, but it's consistent in a manner if it works like that, and would explain why they don't use umpteen million possible warp naval tactics.

Also that avoids the on screen problem of the space battle being absurdly fast and not filling time or looking too clear for the foolish viewers, the same reason why we don't get Sprint speed missiles for sci fi anything ever on screen.

[Prometheus Unbound]

But aft at warp to sublight in that? I do not recall that ever

No, never, to my knowledge.

[Lord Revan]

I wonder if one of the reasons torpedos aren't fired from Warp to stationary targets is that travel time would be too long and you'd risk interception ordanance in-flight (Voyager once targeted and shot its own torp so we can say there's nothing special about torps that prevents them from being shot down) or that firing window would so short it's not worth the effort. As for Klingons and Romulan ambushes wouldn't those involve cloaking devices and we know until fairly recently firing while cloaked wasn't really a thing and might no even be during the last canon part of the prime timeline.

Chang's BoP and possibly the Scimitar would have been a prototype design and while it's not outright stated that Chang's BoP is a prototype but seeing as firing thru its own cloak is not something any klingon ships has been able to before or since it's logical that Chang's BoP was prototype that was never developed into a production model for what ever reason, after all the Scimitar was a romulan design, well technically reman but I highly dout the remans were able to develop it themselves and it was something developed using romulan tech and guidence making it in practice a romulan design.

[Khaat]

There was another TOS episode, Elaan of Troyius, where the Enterprise's warp drive is sabotaged, and a Klingon ship attacks the Enterprise. Maneuvering on impulse power, they are unable to keep up with the Klingons, indicating that the Klingon ship is moving at warp.*

However, in this case it's unclear whether the Enterprise is unable to defend itself effectively because it's stuck at impulse while the enemy moves at warp... Or whether the Enterprise is unable to defend itself because the sabotage to the warp core took out power for the phasers.
___________________

*Editing in a footnote: probably moving at warp. We have no special reason to think that Klingon warships are vastly faster or more maneuverable than the Enterprise, when both ships are traveling at impulse power.

The Enterprise was moving sublight as it was carrying the ambassador and the Dohlman (Elaan) back to Troyius (neighboring world, same system!), and the ambassador needed time to instruct Elaan on Troyian custom to secure peace between the two worlds. A saboteur for the Klingons (Kryton) rigged the M/AM pods to explode if the Enterprise went to warp (then the dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused), so the power available was limited to impulse, so no power for phasers. The Klingon ship makes a few passes at warp 7 (firing disruptors) before the plucky intrepid heroes work out that the "common crystals" of the necklace for the Dohlman are dilitium (thus the deus ex for the fight, and the reason for the Klingon interest in the system and purpose for sabotaging the peace effort.)

tl;dr - yes, warp strafing by Klingons at warp against target at impulse.

[Captain Seafort]

while it's not outright stated that Chang's BoP is a prototype

Actually, it is:

KIRK: Hold on. ...How many of those things are there? Come on, Lieutenant!
VALERIS: Just the prototype.

[Batman]

The Enterprise was moving sublight as it was carrying the ambassador and the Dohlman (Elaan) back to Troyius (neighboring world, same system!), and the ambassador needed time to instruct Elaan on Troyian custom to secure peace between the two worlds. A saboteur for the Klingons (Kryton) rigged the M/AM pods to explode if the Enterprise went to warp (then the dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused), so the power available was limited to impulse, so no power for phasers. The Klingon ship makes a few passes at warp 7 (firing disruptors) before the plucky intrepid heroes work out that the "common crystals" of the necklace for the Dohlman are dilitium (thus the deus ex for the fight, and the reason for the Klingon interest in the system and purpose for sabotaging the peace effort.)

tl;dr - yes, warp strafing by Klingons at warp against target at impulse.

Given that the range figure changes Sulu keeps calling out are decidedly sublight it sounds more like they made their approach at Warp but slowed to impulse for the actual firing run.

[Lord Revan]

while it's not outright stated that Chang's BoP is a prototype

Actually, it is:

KIRK: Hold on. ...How many of those things are there? Come on, Lieutenant!
VALERIS: Just the prototype.

I stand corrected then I've not seen the movie in a while so, I had forgot that line (or maybe it was in the script and not the movie I cannot remember). Regardless I phrased it coservatively to make sure that there's was little to no logical reason to nitpick it to hell.

[Prometheus Unbound]

It is definitely in the movie.

[seanrobertson]

There is no evidence that warp strafing is used, so there must be a reason.

Ahh, but there is. Brian covered that in his Federation v. Empire video. I grant that he's few examples and, iirc, most if not all come from TOS; nonetheless, it is a viable tactic ...

OTOH, you're not wrong, either: warp strafing isn't used often at all, and there HAS to be a reason for that . In the case of "Call to Arms," I submit that the Dominion/Cardassian fleet attacked at sunlight speeds because:

*They hoped to intercept outgoing Klingon or Federation ships (which they probably could have, lest the Defiant and Rotarran not so swift to cloak upon egress)

And most of all...

*The Dominion and Cardassians both heavily favor directed-energy weapons in space combat, which are traditionally sublight. Moreover, recall that, at that point in the series, the Dominion didn't realize that Starfleet had developed a countermeasure to the hitherto shield-piercing phased polaron beams.

I also reckon Dukat, egomaniac that he was, wanted a visible show of force -- hundreds of ships slowly converging upon and surrounding the station. Remember, this guy's someone who isn't just satisfied with a military victory; he goes further, to the point he wants to utterly humiliate the enemy, break their spirit and have them grovel before him. As he said in "Sacrifice of Angels": A true victory is to make your enemy see that he was wrong to oppose you in the first place ... For him to acknowledge your greatness!"

[Simon_Jester]

Also that avoids the on screen problem of the space battle being absurdly fast and not filling time or looking too clear for the foolish viewers, the same reason why we don't get Sprint speed missiles for sci fi anything ever on screen.

Well, we do get missiles that, canonically, have the ability to close insane distances or manage insane turning radii, as good as or better than a Sprint- we just don't see them acting that way in all ways like we'd expect.

By the way, and I know this is off topic- can you think of any plausible 'future propellant' that would let you build a Sprint-like missile with a longer burn time?

[Khaat]

*snip Elaan of Troyius stuff*.

Given that the range figure changes Sulu keeps calling out are decidedly sublight it sounds more like they made their approach at Warp but slowed to impulse for the actual firing run.

I think the passes were supposed to at warp (vs impulse target), but that's the writers. The ranges certainly suggest dropping in and out of warp (or that the writers don't understand the ranges warp would involve), but it wasn't actually mentioned that the klingons dropped out of warp to fire. Turning the Enterprise at warp 2 before firing torpedoes also suggests the klingons would have been still moving at warp.

[Batman]

No. Kirk ordered the ship to pivot at Warp 2 which combined with Scotty's comment about the big E 'wallowing like a garbage scow' on Impulse earlier indicates this wasn't about speed, but maneuverability. In fact the E isn't visibly moving when launching the photon torpedoes.

[Khaat]

Great, so the FX don't match dialog/script. Awesome.

So "good TV" means instead of just punching the Klingons in the face by powering up shields and opening fire as they close, you turn first. Got it.

No, I get it, the writers wanted it to be a relatable, exciting space battle, but warp speed opponents aren't film-friendly.

And the Klingon ship is moving across moving star fields when it moves (we usually get moving star fields at warp, not impulse.) Either the script drops the line about the Klingon ship dropping to impulse, or the distances are incorrect and we have what read like high-speed passes on the Enterprise (moving at sublight speeds.)