Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

[Batman]

We have Sulu calling out sublight closing speeds so either Sulu is wrong (which is evidenced by nothing whatsoever), the instruments he relies on are (which is evidenced by nothing whatsoever), or the firing run simply wasn't made at Warp speed (which is supported by everything actually in the episode).

[Sea Skimmer]

Well, we do get missiles that, canonically, have the ability to close insane distances or manage insane turning radii, as good as or better than a Sprint- we just don't see them acting that way in all ways like we'd expect.

Sometimes yeah. It's never used for anything useful except maybe the never repeated again death star attack profile. Missiles that are set to LAME instead of KILL don't count in my book. Some Trek photon torpedo shots are actually pretty quick sure, but they seemed to aim them around like cannons first. This rather limits the utility of the main battery if more then one enemy appears. E-D has 300 or 400 torpedoes as I recall, how on long does it take to launch that many? You figure they have them for a damn reason right? Yet they've run into trouble with handfuls fired.

By the way, and I know this is off topic- can you think of any plausible 'future propellant' that would let you build a Sprint-like missile with a longer burn time?

That's basically what S-300V is rolling around with right now in the war against world capitalist aeroballistic piracy. How much does size and cost matter to you, and does it have to work in the air or just space is highly relevant, we've come a long way since the 1960s on some fronts, but not so far on heat insulation.

Also suggest taking a look at wide shots of an SM-3 launch. That thing moves. PAC-3 is actually like a scaled down HIBEX the way it functions.

As far as much greater performance goes metallic hydrogen would be the best chemical propulsion source. ISP of 1700 seconds which is 3.7 times that of the space shuttle main engines and about six times that of what Sprint was fired by.

Without metallic hydrogen multiple notional paths exist to make solids that would burn about as well as the space shuttle main engines or even somewhat better with notional Poly-N at 516 second ISP and double the packing density of HMX explosive. Adding dense metal to this propellant might be desirable depending on missile design goals.

[Khaat]

SULU: Three hundred thousand kilometres.
KIRK: I told you to stay in Sickbay.
ELAAN: I want to die with you.
KIRK: We're not going to die. Now get off the bridge.
SULU: One hundred thousand kilometres.
(Weapons fire hits the Enterprise)
SPOCK: He's passed us. All shields held.
KIRK: Mister Sulu, bring her to one four three mark two. Keep our forward shields to him.
SULU: Here he comes again, sir.
KIRK: Stay with the controls. Keep our forward shields to him.
SPOCK: Better than warp seven.
KIRK: Hard over, Sulu. Bring her around. He's going for our flank. (another disruptor hit) Sulu!
SULU: Sorry, Captain. She won't respond fast enough on impulse.
SPOCK: He's past us again. Damage to number four shield.

So who do we trust? Spock? Sulu? The hack writers who know astronomical numbers will sail past the audience's head?

I'm on my phone, so there are bound to be errors

[Khaat]

[phone timed-out, ate my addendum]

Sorry: that this is the first of the attack runs of the Klingon ship in that episode (Elaan of Troyius). The later, final attack run gets more distances called out (to heighten dramatic tension), but in absence of "they've dropped out of warp" in the dialog, I presumed the last run was the same "attack profile."

Oh, to address another point that came up in this thread: this incident happened within a star system with two habitable "class M" planets, so going to warp in a system isn't (in this case) a risk.

[Lord Revan]

I don't think anyone (except possibly Watch-man since only God knows what he is trying say) was arguing that in-system warp was this massive risk, at least not after decent amount of evidence saying that it wasn't a massive risk came to light.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I can kinda see what Watch-man means - there are certainly 2-3 points in the show where they pretty much more or less directly state "Going at warp inside a solar system is a really stupid / dangerous idea that shouldn't be done unless it's a super emergency."

These times are: (to sun up)

[*] Star Trek TMP where Kirk laments that the intruder is headed to Earth "[...] which means we must risk engaging warp whilst still within the solar system."

This is later in the same movie ignored because at the end they are in orbit of Earth, V'Ger is blown up and Kirk says to plot a course "Out there.... thatta-way" and waves his hand dismissively. Sulu engages warp whilst (I presume) in orbit of Earth.

[*] Star Trek TBOBW: It's not said but both the cube AND the Enterprise which is chasing it to save all of humanity, drop out of warp at Saturn and go in at impulse when we know both are capable of dropping out of warp directly into orbit (Descent).

finally

[*] By Inferno's Light: Dr Bashir changeling is about to blow up the Bajoran sun - they're within weapons range but not tractor beam range (so like 1 light second, give or take?). "Want a bet, take us to warp!" "Inside a solar system??!!" is the response we get from Dax, the professional pilot.

However they were engaging warp directly toward a star and dropped out of warp not very far from the star itself so perhaps that was dax getting her words mixed up and she meant "WARP TOWARD A FUCKING STAR ARE YOU MENTAL?!" because we do see them come out of warp and it's not far from the star at all - and they're directly facing it.


So there are two direct statements and one very strange instance of the Enterprise not being in a hurry when it should be which does point to engaging warp is a bad idea in a solar system. However in the two times when they state it's a bad idea / not the normal procedure - they do it anyway and are fine.

If at all other times this was adhered to, we'd say that normally ships don't engage warp in a solar system. However as above, half the TOS episodes seem to do it and a good 1/3 of TNG episodes seem to do it also. With no mention of risk, no issues. I've listed the episodes above so anyone can check them.

So I say:

TMP: This was a risk to engage *the untested engines* whilst still in the solar system - they had hoped to wait longer (to do more tests) and engage out of the system.

Inferno: Dax meant engaging warp that close to a sun / directly at a sun maybe.

TBOBW: no idea but it makes it a single outlier. And thus can be ignored

[Tribble]

TBOBW: no idea but it makes it a single outlier. And thus can be ignored

IMO it was fits based on what we saw throughout BOBW as the Borg were never in a rush to get to Earth:

When they first arrived they started randomly attacking colonies and ships even though they already knew the location of Earth (they headed straight towards Earth the moment they kidnapped Picard, before they had the chance to assimilate him)
They took their time going after Picard solely because they wanted him as a symbol of their superiority, even though this gave Starfleet more time to organise (Picard's knowledge was more of a bonus than a necessity at that point since they had already adapted to most Fed weapons).
They loitered around Wolf 359 long enough for the E-D to catch up (possibly due to battle damage though "Emissary" shows they were swatting Fed ships without effort).

In that context, taking their time getting to Earth after Wolf 259 really isn't that much of a stretch. The whole point of their campaign was to demonstrate that "resistance is futile" and what better way to do that than to casually stroll in and do whatever the hell they want? I never saw the Borg's decision to drop out of warp around Saturn as being a requirement or something.

[Prometheus Unbound]

TBOBW: no idea but it makes it a single outlier. And thus can be ignored

IMO it was fits based on what we saw throughout BOBW as the Borg were never in a rush to get to Earth:

When they first arrived they started randomly attacking colonies and ships even though they already knew the location of Earth (they headed straight towards Earth the moment they kidnapped Picard, before they had the chance to assimilate him)
They took their time going after Picard solely because they wanted him as a symbol of their superiority, even though this gave Starfleet more time to organise (Picard's knowledge was more of a bonus than a necessity at that point since they had already adapted to most Fed weapons).
They loitered around Wolf 359 long enough for the E-D to catch up (possibly due to battle damage though "Emissary" shows they were swatting Fed ships without effort).

In that context, taking their time getting to Earth after Wolf 259 really isn't that much of a stretch. The whole point of their campaign was to demonstrate that "resistance is futile" and what better way to do that than to casually stroll in and do whatever the hell they want? I never saw the Borg's decision to drop out of warp around Saturn as being a requirement or something.

It's not so much the Borg being slow - they had their own reasons.

It's that the Enterprise itself drops out of warp next to Saturn - we see the visual as it does so - and Crusher (W) at the helm says it'll be 42 minutes (not 47 heh) to intercept them.

The question is - why in gosh's name wouldn't they come out of warp either - 1) at Earth or 2) next to the cube ? The intention was to attack straight away (as we saw). What good does a slow chase for 20 mins when you can all see each other do? If you can safely and comfortably engage warp in the solar system, why not do so?


If you go via the "can't engage warp in a system" then it is further proof. However since we debunked all instances but this one the question is - why would the Enteprise come out of warp there? Ignore the cube, why would they purposefully come out of warp at Saturn, during a pursuit, and then Riker's all like "time to intercept??" and Wes is like "best we can do is..."


well.. no, the best you could do is warp speed but why... not?

[Batman]

They also slowed to sublight to tango with the E-D in the Picard recapture sequence.
Plus BoBW Pt 2 also had the both the E-D and the Borg cube move FTL on impulse (the Cube went impulse around a ringed planet so no closer than Saturn) yet were a mere 27 minutes from Earth (minimum distance between Saturn and Earth-64 lightminutes) and the E-D slows to Warp while approaching the terran system (but comes out of Warp around the same ringed planet as the Borg cube, so again presumably Saturn) yet time to intercept is 23min 13 sec when the distance between Saturn and Mars (the defense perimeter whichof the Borg cube has just broken through) is 60 lightminutes, and that's ignoring the fact that the Cube is still making a beeline for Earth.

[Tribble]

It's not so much the Borg being slow - they had their own reasons.

It's that the Enterprise itself drops out of warp next to Saturn - we see the visual as it does so - and Crusher (W) at the helm says it'll be 42 minutes (not 47 heh) to intercept them.

The question is - why in gosh's name wouldn't they come out of warp either - 1) at Earth or 2) next to the cube ? The intention was to attack straight away (as we saw). What good does a slow chase for 20 mins when you can all see each other do? If you can safely and comfortably engage warp in the solar system, why not do so?


If you go via the "can't engage warp in a system" then it is further proof. However since we debunked all instances but this one the question is - why would the Enteprise come out of warp there? Ignore the cube, why would they purposefully come out of warp at Saturn, during a pursuit, and then Riker's all like "time to intercept??" and Wes is like "best we can do is..."


well.. no, the best you could do is warp speed but why... not?

Outside universe - we all know it was just for plot reasons and dramaz

Inside universe, perhaps it was do to battle damage? They had been fighting quite a bit, and the E-D was hardly in the best of shape. They may have had to have dropped out of warp to give the warp engines a bit of a break.

They also slowed to sublight to tango with the E-D in the Picard recapture sequence.

Right I forgot about that, it seems the Borg were just dicking around for the most part during BOBW. Which was fine for them, as the Feds hadn't demonstrated that they were any real sort of threat up until that point. Note that in STFC the Borg made a beeline for Earth at high warp, and engaged the Fed fleet at warp all the way to Earth.

Plus BoBW Pt 2 also had the both the E-D and the Borg cube move FTL on impulse (the Cube went impulse around a ringed planet so no closer than Saturn) yet were a mere 27 minutes from Earth (minimum distance between Saturn and Earth-64 lightminutes) and the E-D slows to Warp while approaching the terran system (but comes out of Warp around the same ringed planet as the Borg cube, so again presumably Saturn) yet time to intercept is 23min 13 sec when the distance between Saturn and Mars (the defense perimeter whichof the Borg cube has just broken through) is 60 lightminutes, and that's ignoring the fact that the Cube is still making a beeline for Earth.

Outside universe - again, plot hole, and should be treated as an outlier.

Inside universe- the impulse engines are bending subspace according to the TM, just to a lesser degree than the warp drives. Perhaps it's possible that they could be used for very short range FTL travel (though not enough to be useful outside of a solar system). The E-D may have had to drop out due to previous battle damage, though in the Borg's case it's more likely that they just felt like dicking around some more. Or maybe there was a range issue with Picard and they slowed their pace to stay in contact?

[Captain Seafort]

Plus BoBW Pt 2 also had the both the E-D and the Borg cube move FTL on impulse (the Cube went impulse around a ringed planet so no closer than Saturn) yet were a mere 27 minutes from Earth (minimum distance between Saturn and Earth-64 lightminutes) and the E-D slows to Warp while approaching the terran system (but comes out of Warp around the same ringed planet as the Borg cube, so again presumably Saturn) yet time to intercept is 23min 13 sec when the distance between Saturn and Mars (the defense perimeter whichof the Borg cube has just broken through) is 60 lightminutes, and that's ignoring the fact that the Cube is still making a beeline for Earth.

Outside universe - again, plot hole, and should be treated as an outlier.

Inside universe- the impulse engines are bending subspace according to the TM, just to a lesser degree than the warp drives. Perhaps it's possible that they could be used for very short range FTL travel (though not enough to be useful outside of a solar system). The E-D may have had to drop out due to previous battle damage, though in the Borg's case it's more likely that they just felt like dicking around some more. Or maybe there was a range issue with Picard and they slowed their pace to stay in contact?

Actually, I think this is a case of someone doing their sums - the TM mentions that the E-D can get up to .92c at impulse. At that speed, and taking relativistic time dilation into account, it would take the ship about 27 minutes (ship's time) to cover 64 light minutes.

[Sea Skimmer]

It could be that warp drive needs more power to operate near planets, no matter the speed, then in a near empty void. After all planets are so massive they actually DO warp space time on a scale we can measure.

So perhaps with exhausted engines the drive just could not keep operating in that environment, but they still had full reactor power for sublight.

[Q99]

Really, the answer to warp strafing should be weapons capable of firing at warp targets, like torpedoes and such.

Honestly,warp strafing isn't even scratching the surface of unexploited tactics. You can cloak something as small as a mine. Cloak a runabout-sized vessel loaded with extra antimatter, accelerate it to high relativistic velocity with a plasma rocket (to keep it from being detectable by its effects on subspace, so you only see it at light speed) and kill the engines. All mentioned sensor tech seems to see cloaked vessels using indirect effects of their warp engines or their reactors at high output.

There's gravimetric sensors (which work on older cloaks but modern ones can hide from) and Tachyon grids (which work by a cloaked vessel crossing the grid).

Neither good against mines, but still good against mobile targets.

[Mange]

Yeah. It's not like Kirk used to Warp straight out of orbit routinely. Oh wait, he did, And couriously enough, even in the TNG and plus era Trek ships 'DON'T spend freaking forever getting from the edge of the system to the actually interesting planets. Oh , and even Picard routinely orders Warp speed while still in orbit.
The 'no insystem Warp' is based almost exclusively on the problems with the fucked-up Warp drive of the E-Nil in TMP.

No. In the DS9 episode "By Inferno's Light", Dax questions the use of warp speed while inside the Bajoran star system (to intercept the changeling masquerading as Dr. Bashir). In the DS9 episode "Waltz", Worf orders Dax to go to full impulse and then maximum warp as the outer planets of the system they were in had been cleared so there are examples of this.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Yeah. It's not like Kirk used to Warp straight out of orbit routinely. Oh wait, he did, And couriously enough, even in the TNG and plus era Trek ships 'DON'T spend freaking forever getting from the edge of the system to the actually interesting planets. Oh , and even Picard routinely orders Warp speed while still in orbit.
The 'no insystem Warp' is based almost exclusively on the problems with the fucked-up Warp drive of the E-Nil in TMP.

No. In the DS9 episode "By Inferno's Light", Dax questions the use of warp speed while inside the Bajoran star system (to intercept the changeling masquerading as Dr. Bashir). In the DS9 episode "Waltz", Worf orders Dax to go to full impulse and then maximum warp as the outer planets of the system they were in had been cleared so there are examples of this.

we just did two pages of that, we're mostly ignoring the 2-3 times it's been shown to be dangerous / not normal because there's 70+ examples of them doing it routinely without issue or comment in TOS and TNG alone.

[Mange]

Yeah. It's not like Kirk used to Warp straight out of orbit routinely. Oh wait, he did, And couriously enough, even in the TNG and plus era Trek ships 'DON'T spend freaking forever getting from the edge of the system to the actually interesting planets. Oh , and even Picard routinely orders Warp speed while still in orbit.
The 'no insystem Warp' is based almost exclusively on the problems with the fucked-up Warp drive of the E-Nil in TMP.

No. In the DS9 episode "By Inferno's Light", Dax questions the use of warp speed while inside the Bajoran star system (to intercept the changeling masquerading as Dr. Bashir). In the DS9 episode "Waltz", Worf orders Dax to go to full impulse and then maximum warp as the outer planets of the system they were in had been cleared so there are examples of this.

we just did two pages of that, we're mostly ignoring the 2-3 times it's been shown to be dangerous / not normal because there's 70+ examples of them doing it routinely without issue or comment in TOS and TNG alone.

Sorry, missed that when I glanced through the thread.