Fantastic Beasts (Spoilers probably.)

[The Romulan Republic]

Apparently Ron Perlman had a small role, so that's another name I at least recognized.

[Crazedwraith]

He was the voice of the Goblin in the bar scene. The one who wants the Bowtruckle as payment. Thought I recognised him.

[Elheru Aran]

Crap, yeah. Obviously that's not something I would notice, though something did tickle the back of my mind about the Goblin. VA work is different though, much less prominence usually unless it's an entirely animated film. Perlman is what I'd categorize as usually a B-list actor... a supporting role most of the time.

Anyway, yeah, I saw this last night.

Thoughts: Wow, the American wizards are dicks.

I wasn't *hugely* fond of Newt Scamander; guy barely said five words the whole movie, or at least that's how it felt sometimes. Half the time he's just standing there looking awkward. Kowalski stood out pretty well actually compared to Newt. Where Redmayne did steal the show was when he was in Newt's element, dealing with the animals... there he actually became animated and could talk about stuff. I liked that. Especially the little bit where he's doing some kind of mating dance or something with the Erumpent. That was cutely hilarious, seeing the gawky little English dude strutting about and making animal noises to woo this massive rhino-beast...

That said, I can see how he might be a natural enough depiction of a nerd who's most comfortable in his element and awkward socially to a pathological degree, especially in a new environment. It also works thematically as a counterpart to Credence, who is similarly weird and awkward.

Interesting point though. Kowalski apparently didn't get out of the military until fairly recently, IIRC he says he didn't get out until 1924? Did HP-WWI go on for longer, or start at a later date, than RL WWI?

I like that we see some more overt, powerful displays of magic here. Newt rebuilding Kowalski's apartment with ease, the Aurors reassembling the city bit by bit as the magic venom Oblivates all the Muggles... it's a pretty impressive demonstration compared to HP, which makes sense as these are experienced adult wizards in their element rather than a bunch of schoolkids.

I suspect the next few movies (there are five total planned IIRC) will involve Newt going to different continents and showing us the wizarding worlds of those continents. Transylvania, Durmstrang, vampires and werewolves? Africa, ancient Egyptians and native magic? I think there were indications that it could happen given the multi-ethnic character of the council or whatever it was that was meeting in MACUSA-- I definitely saw Chinese (Korean? Japanese?) wizards in there, a Russian in a Cossack coat, and probably more that I simply didn't notice.

[Shroom Man 777]

Kowalski mentioned that he helped in the reconstruction forces? I don't remember entirely...

So... do you think the hot Goldstein girl occlumens restored his memories with her mind powers?

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, Kowalski said he left the armed forces later, not at the end of the war.

Interestingly, Newt was apparently a veteran on the Wizarding side (Pottermore mentions that while the Wizarding government in Britain tried to keep wizards out of the war, a lot of wizards got involved illegally). However, it sounds like he had more of a behind the lines role, using his knowledge of magical creatures (he says that he worked with dragons on the Eastern front).

[Crazedwraith]

I wasnt quite clear on whether Newt was supposed to have taken part in the war or whether the iron bellys comment eas what he was doing instead.

His brother was mentioned as a war hero.

[Shroom Man 777]

What wizarding conflict *was* Newt involved beforehand? Or was it the Muggles' war?

[The Romulan Republic]

Again, its stated somewhere on Pottermore that a lot of wizards illegally interfered in the Muggle First World War. And, presumably, their were government efforts to contain it.

Probably the same war.

[Shroom Man 777]

Ah I'm presuming by Newt's tendencies he probably relocated rare magical lifeforms that got endangered by the warring.

[AniThyng]

Glad that we established senator Shaw and his father were assholes and bigots lest we feel any sadness that the senator died and his father...has..his memory..wiped? Not sure what would happen there...

[General Zod]

Glad that we established senator Shaw and his father were assholes and bigots lest we feel any sadness that the senator died and his father...has..his memory..wiped? Not sure what would happen there...

Given Kowalski was still having dreams about the events he saw and they took the form of his bakery creations, I can only assume those gaps in senator's daddy's memory would be filled in somehow.

[The Romulan Republic]

Glad that we established senator Shaw and his father were assholes and bigots lest we feel any sadness that the senator died and his father...has..his memory..wiped? Not sure what would happen there...

I actually felt a little bad for the Senator and his family.

I think the significance of them being dicks, in part at least, is that the Obscurus was a manifestation of Credence's mind/emotions, going after the people who were dicks towards him (first the Senator, then his mother, then the Wizarding government.

[Elheru Aran]

Glad that we established senator Shaw and his father were assholes and bigots lest we feel any sadness that the senator died and his father...has..his memory..wiped? Not sure what would happen there...

Given Kowalski was still having dreams about the events he saw and they took the form of his bakery creations, I can only assume those gaps in senator's daddy's memory would be filled in somehow.

Of course, what do you think they'd go without putting a sequel hook in?

[Alyrium Denryle]

I wasn't *hugely* fond of Newt Scamander; guy barely said five words the whole movie, or at least that's how it felt sometimes. Half the time he's just standing there looking awkward. Kowalski stood out pretty well actually compared to Newt. Where Redmayne did steal the show was when he was in Newt's element, dealing with the animals... there he actually became animated and could talk about stuff. I liked that. Especially the little bit where he's doing some kind of mating dance or something with the Erumpent. That was cutely hilarious, seeing the gawky little English dude strutting about and making animal noises to woo this massive rhino-beast...

Newt is, as far as I can tell, courtship-dancing along the autism spectrum, and that is awesome.

Okay, so, seen the film.

Spoiler

I actually kinda like heroes who dont have notable character failings. There actually are good decent people and they don't need to have anger management issues or bigotries or strange insecurities. In this case, you have a wildly intelligent autistic hufflepuff, and some of his newfound friends one of whom is somewhat...well fixated on doing her old job while terrified of losing the one she has to the point that she wont assert herself. The actress could have done a better job (she fell a bit flat for me), Newt is just pure awesome as far as I am concerned.

As for the movie's structural issues... I am not sure that--given the concept--there was much of a choice. Newt came to New York and ends up having a problem, while being pulled into something bigger (which is presumably the thrust of the next few films) while still having to deal with that problem and having no clue what is going on for a while. I personally cannot think of a better way to handle that, and perhaps it is a flaw in the base concept but I think it was dealt with about as well as could be expected.

"Also, anyone else pissed that that cunt running MACUSA never really got called out for her horse shit? She not only got hoodwinked by Grindelwald posing as her right-hand man (marginally forgivable), she runs a regime that enforces strict apartheid laws (which she seems quite willing and indeed determined to uphold) and where its apparently okay to sentence someone to summary execution without trial or appeal, and shows not a flicker of remorse over her men killing an abuse victim who Newt and Porpentina probably could have talked down.

What a scumbag."

Honestly, I dont think she does run such a government. "Graves" is Grindelwald, afterall. The Imperious Curse is something he can and likely would do rather trivially. And you dont have to give real-time commands. Running commands are possible. So hit the executioners (and you will have some... this is America...) with an Imperious Curse and the command to "Obey my orders without question because I act with MACUSA authority, and tell no one", and there you go. Hit-Wizards.

As for the muggle thing... there is a history there. Imagine the inquisition if there actually were witches who were known? How nasty would that get? The muggles cannot really threaten the existence of wizards (what with the ability to fold space time and break entropy), but imagine just a single wizard needing to defend themselves? Talk about body count. In the modern world we could probably accept wizards among us without going all torch-happy. However, that society has wizards walking among them, and all kinds of strange shit happening. There are probably little leaks all over the fucking place (like what happened to Newt early in the film) that just cannot be proven or corroborated. So the muggle world in the 1920s still probably has a more superstitious culture that is saturated with negative folklore about witches and the like. The "New Salemers" draw crowds who are not throwing vegetables at them, for instance.

That could get nasty fast. Apartheid is probably best for everyone under those conditions.

[Shroom Man 777]

I guess considering that the Muggles still have Jim fucking Crow, then historically the US wizards and witches with their capacity to live in a separate existence in utter peace would choose that option.

Kind of like, if those African-American seperatists and Nation of Islam-types that Malcolm X hanged out with could actually do what they wanted to do, then they would have. It would be rooted in prejudice, but I mean they're doing that because they don't want to do the effort and the risk of reforming "mainstream society." Take your ball and go. On some level, it's understandable. Doesn't excuse the bad shit they might (or might have to) do.

I mean, save for the no-intermarriage law, the British Ministry does the same thing anyway!

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, I'm not cutting Wizarding America's government much slack. Shaw's actions could maybe be put down to him Spoiler

being Grindelwald

, but no one else seemed to bat an eye at them, or say that he wasn't allowed to do that (other than the intended victims and their friends, that is). Unless his subordinates/colleagues were all corrupt or under the Imperious Curse, then this is either a state where such things are allowed, or one where the subordinates are disturbingly good at "just following orders".

And the American laws on secrecy are way more draconian than Britain's, which is saying something. Yeah, their's a history their, but its still collective punishment/discrimination on the basis of culture/ethnicity.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Yeah, I'm not cutting Wizarding America's government much slack. Shaw's actions could maybe be put down to him

None of them should be given much slack, I agree. Wizarding Britain's government is spectacularly incompetent. It is as if their governments are run by parochial small-town mayors. Which, honestly, is a pretty good analogy because the whole population of wizarding britain is maybe a few thousand.

but no one else seemed to bat an eye at them, or say that he wasn't allowed to do that (other than the intended victims and their friends, that is). Unless his subordinates/colleagues were all corrupt or under the Imperious Curse, then this is either a state where such things are allowed, or one where the subordinates are disturbingly good at "just following orders".

Well, run with this for a second. The only people in the room were Mr. Scamander, Ms. Goldstein, the executioners and Mr. Graves. Say he only has the executioners under the Imperious. If they are so dominated, they cannot object. Ms. Goldsteins objection "YOU CAN'T DO THIS!" was a statement of fact. He can't. He used the Imperious Curse to usurp authority he cannot legally have.

No one else would have known. All they know is that two people who had been arrested have escaped custody.

And the American laws on secrecy are way more draconian than Britain's, which is saying something. Yeah, their's a history their, but its still collective punishment/discrimination on the basis of culture/ethnicity.

There.

For the love of god, it is there. There are several forms of the word. "Their" denotes ownership "they want their tricycle back". There denotes location or existence "Something is out there" or "There are Vorlons in the room". "They're" is a contraction for "they are". "They're here".

As for the rest, that shit is in living memory. Wizards live a long time. An older wizard might have been born in time to see the revolutionary war, and obviously there is still a very real danger of discovery. You dont take chances like that. Maybe with a muggle-born's parents, but not with Joe Blow. Not when the consequences could be as large as a war with the muggles--a war the muggles would lose spectacularly and bloodily.

[The Romulan Republic]

None of them should be given much slack, I agree. Wizarding Britain's government is spectacularly incompetent. It is as if their governments are run by parochial small-town mayors. Which, honestly, is a pretty good analogy because the whole population of wizarding britain is maybe a few thousand.

Yeah. But at least Wizarding Britain lets Muggles and Wizards marry. Though on the other hand, America has no Dementors.

I do wonder what the hell happens to No-Maj-born children in America, though. Ignored? Doubtful. Too much risk of accidental magic. An exemption made for their parents? Again, doubtful, given how draconian the laws on secrecy are. Suppress their magic somehow? I know of no way to do that effectively in the Potterverse, and trying can have nasty side-effects. Like Obscurials (on that note, who wants to bet that Ariana Dumbledore was one?).

As far as I can see, that leaves us with either:

A) Kill them, or

B) Forcibly remove them from their parents and mind wipe their parents.

Either of which is fucking barbaric. Its just a question of weather they're engaging in genocide, or the lesser evil of mass kidnapping.

Either one puts them in the same company as that New Salem child abusing asshole.

Well, run with this for a second. The only people in the room were Mr. Scamander, Ms. Goldstein, the executioners and Mr. Graves. Say he only has the executioners under the Imperious. If they are so dominated, they cannot object. Ms. Goldsteins objection "YOU CAN'T DO THIS!" was a statement of fact. He can't. He used the Imperious Curse to usurp authority he cannot legally have.

No one else would have known. All they know is that two people who had been arrested have escaped custody.

Perhaps, but their's no evidence the executioners were Imperiused, and Ms. Goldstein's objection could have been simple shock/desperation.

Also, a properly functioning legal system would have safeguards in place to prevent this. You should not be able to go from detained to executed in what appears to be less than a day without questions being asked. There comes a point when cutting red tape goes to far, because you need a certain amount of red tape in a government.

And its not as if these were nobodies, or this was an obscure case. Newt was a somewhat notable researcher and foreign national who's brother was apparently a famous war hero, and Ms. Goldstein was an ex-Auror demoted over a recent scandal. And they were detained in front of, what, all of MACUSA plus some foreign dignitaries?

You disappear people like that, in a case like that, in a remotely functioning system, and questions will be asked. Its not as though Shaw was counting on them escaping, right?

And its not as though he had them taken out and killed in a field or back alley somewhere either. He was going to have them executed in the MACUSA HQ itself, in the official execution chamber.

As for the rest, that shit is in living memory. Wizards live a long time. An older wizard might have been born in time to see the revolutionary war, and obviously there is still a very real danger of discovery. You dont take chances like that. Maybe with a muggle-born's parents, but not with Joe Blow. Not when the consequences could be as large as a war with the muggles--a war the muggles would lose spectacularly and bloodily.

Sure, but MACUSA's laws are draconian even by Wizarding standards, it seems. And this isn't just the difference in time between the '20s and '90s. Newt calls them out on it, and briefly compares their laws to Britain's.

The Statue of Secrecy is a complicated issue. On the one hand, that kind of prejudice, isolationism, and mass mind-control to enforce it is staggeringly morally bankrupt and abhorrent. But on the other hand, their is no safe, quick, easy way to end it, because a sudden exposure means panic, and rioting, and witch hunts, and war, and despotism. The Wizards are stuck in a trap with no apparent way out.

But MACUSA is more draconian than they need to be. For God's sake, the make the laws on secrecy of a country where fucking Voldemort was able to gain the support of a significant percentage of the upper class look liberal.

Edit: And yes, I know about the their/there/they're thing (though its generally only the first two I mix up). Its a bad habit I got into that is so ingrained at this point that it pops up unless I am making an active effort for it not to. Apologies.

[Shroom Man 777]

The MACUSA execution chamber was obscene and incredible.

Aaaannnndd.... that New Salem boy shows us what happens to Nomaj-born kids in Magimurca.

I do like how the MACUSA's apartheid provides the blueprints for later American culture's G-Man MIB fixation.

I bet perverted abusive MACUSA operatives really *do* butt-probe random nomajes they rendition for the lulz and obliviate them...

And... it seems like due to their paranoia, Magimurcan witches and wizards tend to use apparations more than broomsticks?

[The Romulan Republic]

A few problems with that:

1. It does not seem that all No-Maj-born children become Obscurials if untrained. Just the ones who suppress magic (due to fear of persecution, at least in some cases). Obviously, since schooling starts at eleven in Britain and Obscurials tend to die younger (and isn't that proof of either extreme idiocy or extreme malevolence-either is possible-in the British system?).

Also, Obscurials are supposed to be... rare. Probably not as rare as people would like to believe, if this film is any indication, but if the damage this one did is at all typical...

2. Simply ignoring those children doesn't seem a very practical solution, because like I said... more accidental magic, more risk of exposure, more work for MACUSA.

And of course, since being an Obscurial is typically a death sentence, letting them all become Obscurials, hypothetically, would amount to genocide anyway. Just a stupid, impractical, self-destructive kind of genocide.

[The Romulan Republic]

Another interesting question:

Could Grindelwald have actually won his war with the Muggles if he had gotten the Obscurial on his side?

We saw how completely useless the cops' guns were. Now, we did see that the Obscurial could be blasted apart by sufficient force (presuming it was raw force, and not the magical component, that did it). So maybe an artillery barrage, or a sufficient number of machine guns... but the Obscurial was a fast-moving target for early 20th. Century weaponry, particularly artillery, to target effectively, I'm thinking.

And it killed a skyscraper in seconds, without apparent difficulty or exhaustion.

[Shroom Man 777]

What I mean to say was that the neglected abused child - Obscuroidification or not - shows us what happen to Nomaj-born children.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The MACUSA execution chamber was obscene and incredible.

Aaaannnndd.... that New Salem boy shows us what happens to Nomaj-born kids in Magimurca.

I do like how the MACUSA's apartheid provides the blueprints for later American culture's G-Man MIB fixation.

I bet perverted abusive MACUSA operatives really *do* butt-probe random nomajes they rendition for the lulz and obliviate them...

And... it seems like due to their paranoia, Magimurcan witches and wizards tend to use apparations more than broomsticks?

I dont think that is universal. Muggle-born kids receive magical training...most of the time. But for someone like Credence, who is born to a wizard parent who dies and is adopted by a New Salemer... yeah. It would be like being gay in a religious fundie household.

I dont know what they do with the parents though. Either they make an exception, use some sort of cover-story, or obliviation.

[Shroom Man 777]

So if they don't even care for someone born of magical parents who gets orphaned...

[Alyrium Denryle]

So if they don't even care for someone born of magical parents who gets orphaned...

They did not necessarily know. People still die from outbreaks of "Dragon Pox", whole families can die and the small child who somehow survived falls through the cracks. Wizarding Britain has a thousand years of built up magical infrastructure. Geomantic networks that cover the country to track magical births. America does not.