Worst of Star Wars Legends

[Darth Yoshi]

NJO certainly had its flaws. But large portions of it were also pretty good, and I actually especially liked Traitor for how it developed Jacen from being the most useless NR-aligned character in the series (no mean feat, considering Borsk Fey'lya's entire schtick was to be a useless obstructionist politico) into someone with a unique perspective on the Force different from the traditional Jedi, sort of like the Aing-Tii or the people from BFC.

Then it turned out that no, Vergere was actually full of shit and she was really a wannabe Sith all along, and in part due to her tutelage Jacen decides that being a Sith Lord was the way to go? Everything I heard about that mess finally turned me off the old EU. I mean, sure, back in the Bantam era the EU was plagued with rather formulaic Sith superweapon/warlord of the week nonsense, but the galaxy still came across as being genuinely better off under the NR than under the Empire. And sure, the Legacy comics establish that things have regressed a century later, but it's one thing for the galaxy to fall apart again after our heroes die. But the takeaway from LOTF and FOTJ is that the galaxy doesn't even bother to wait for them to die before undoing everything they'd spent they life's working for. So yeah, my vote goes to FOTJ.

[eMeM]

Traviss used the argument that Order 66 was a lawful order from the chain of command and clones followed it as they should. Which is the same argument the guards at Nuremburg used. It would have been fine if it were tied in with the point in Attack of the Clones that clones were more obedient than normal. So when Palpatine grants his position as commander in chief, clones follow any order he gives, including the one to wipe out the Jedi. But instead she tried to argue that the clones were actually justified.

Not to defend Traviss but I would think that they were justified in following Order 66, atleast legally. It was a, as far as they knew, lawful order from their commander in chief. They didn't know Palps was a Sith, that his "kill your Jedi commanders" order was anything other then what he tried to justify it as, a Jedi Rebellion he had to put down.

The problem with the biochips is it seems to just be Order 66 and thats it. Not the general list of contingency orders we had from the old EU. It made more sense to me to be a whole list of "what if" orders that Clonetroopers were taught to obey. It was as far as anybody knew just a order that could be used in the event of a Jedi falling to the dark side or defecting to the Seps, they just didn't know it could be broadcast to everyone.

I think removing the choice of following the order, having it just be a chip in their heads, really removed one thing that was very interesting about the Clones. They followed the order, they killed their friends, not because of malice or anything (unless Traviss was writing it) but because they had orders. Really gives them later pathos when they realize they had been duped, that they were still victims but victims of a Sith plot where they were nothing but pawns. They thought they were soldiers fighting for the Republic, safeguarding it from the Separatists and then the Jedi, but no, they were puppets (though not literal puppets) tricked into murdering their friends and comrades.

With no choice in the matter there is no tragedy of their actions (well beyond the obvious dead people), they didn't do it, it was a droid inhabiting their body that did it, they didn't actually kill their friends as it was someone else that technically pulled the trigger. Clones who followed orders would if they ever figure out the Jedi Rebellion was a lie be looking for redemption. Other Clones would be haunted by the what if, what if their Jedi wasn't rebelling, what if they waited to confirm the order. Some Clones could have even chosen not to follow the order thinking it was mistake or a Sep trick.

Giving them the choice I think makes them far more human and interesting. They weren't mindless servants but thinking people breed for an awful singular purpose that sadly they followed unthinkingly.

The biochip just leaves them too squeaky clean.

You really believe no clone would have the slightest doubt about this order? That they would just take aim and fire? After three years of fighting side by side?
Sure, you could say that clones are just organic droids after watching just the movies. But if we take either TCW or Traviss' books into consideration there is absolutely no way the Order 66 scene in RotS would look like it did if it was just a normal "legitimate order".

[Crazedwraith]

NJO was sprawling and inconsistent. People saying Luke being the hero in TUF is cool. But once you've developed Jacen and Jaina to that point and then don't use them in the grand finale then it smacks of waste. Likewise developing and killing Anakin only to have to repeat the 'sense vong with the force' bit with Jacen in Traitor.

They obviously tried to fix this with LotF. Only 9 novels written by only three authors and three of their most popular authors. (Denning and Travis were very well thought of at the time) They just failed by making it a massive stupid retread of the PT.

It was actually TUF that made me stop reading books later in the timeline. It was a none awful ending but I had no inclination to travel further with the story.

[NecronLord]

I voted NJO because it killed my habit of regularly buying EU books; but Legacy has got to be a special mention for the idea of rehabilitating the Empire.

[Gandalf]

You really believe no clone would have the slightest doubt about this order? That they would just take aim and fire? After three years of fighting side by side?
Sure, you could say that clones are just organic droids after watching just the movies. But if we take either TCW or Traviss' books into consideration there is absolutely no way the Order 66 scene in RotS would look like it did if it was just a normal "legitimate order".

The ROTS novelisation states that the one who shot at Obi-Wan was more irate at having just handed him his lightsabre moment before, making the whole thing harder.

[GuppyShark]

Jedi Academy trilogy had the Suncrusher? Argh, I want to change my vote.

"Oh hey this ship has invincible armour"
"but destroying suns is unforgivable, we're putting it into a blackhole"
"can we keep the armour for study, the civilian applications alone..."
"no, sun destroying is wrong"

[NecronLord]

No die there. KJA did specify that they'd kept the armour for civilian use. He and his wife even wrote a kids book featuring one of Lando's business projects using Quantum Crystalline armour for mining pods in gas giant cores for ultra-compressed crystals. GemDiver station - he's bad, but he's not that bad. There's no reason to think the New Republic didn't use it anywhere where it was cost-effective and useful.

I think they also took data on how to make resonance torpedos though never saw a need to construct them.

[GuppyShark]

No die there. KJA did specify that they'd kept the armour for civilian use. He and his wife even wrote a kids book featuring one of Lando's business projects using Quantum Crystalline armour for mining pods in gas giant cores for ultra-compressed crystals.

Did not know that, thanks. Based purely off the trilogy itself I think he expected handwavium armour to pass quietly into the night.

There's no reason to think the New Republic didn't use it anywhere where it was cost-effective and useful.

You can use it to create reusable Star Destroyer killers. That sounds pretty cost-effective to me.

[NecronLord]

Not if it costs more than a Mon-Cal cruiser or a groun division per pop. The Empire built these things as terror weapons, not as multi-role devices.

A resonance torpedo can't stop racial militias on New Cov, or search a system for pirates.

[Joun_Lord]

You really believe no clone would have the slightest doubt about this order? That they would just take aim and fire? After three years of fighting side by side?
Sure, you could say that clones are just organic droids after watching just the movies. But if we take either TCW or Traviss' books into consideration there is absolutely no way the Order 66 scene in RotS would look like it did if it was just a normal "legitimate order".

Some would, some wouldn't. That would be the human reaction. Some Clones would blindly obey orders, others might question them, a few might even disobey them. Even in the movie we see some hesitation from some of the Clones. Cody pauses a moment after getting the order, the Galactic Marines (which sadly we didn't see enough of, they looked awesome) with Ki Adi Mundi all skid to a halt in an active warzone before blasting him. Other Clones seemed to not hesitate at all, as soon as they got they order they carried it out. Plus we only saw a few Jedi actually die in the movie out of an order of around 10,000. Would kinda break the flow if we saw Clone saying, "Maybe we should wait for the orders to be confirmed." Then they spend the next 4 hours on the holophone with a Wookiee holophone operator who doesn't speak basic trying to get in touch with the Chancellors office only to find the newly declared Emperor is out at the moment to go rescue the half of a apprentice he's got left.

Most Clones aren't going to question the order or even hesitate. They were genetically engineered to be more loyal, trained from birth to follow the Republic chain o' command. Most probably aren't going to break that conditioning just for a friend or even a comrade.

Jedi Academy trilogy had the Suncrusher? Argh, I want to change my vote.

"Oh hey this ship has invincible armour"
"but destroying suns is unforgivable, we're putting it into a blackhole"
"can we keep the armour for study, the civilian applications alone..."
"no, sun destroying is wrong"

My main problem with the Sun Crusher was what they did to the guy who used it. Nothing, not even a literal slap on the wrist. I can see them trying to get rid of the Sun Crusher because it would be a too tempting of item to use. It blows up suns, it could severely weaken or even destroy their enemies in an afternoon. Somebody could get their hands on it and use it to do some Imperial style genocide but worse.

And thats exactly what happened. Kyp Durron destroyed an entire solar system and the millions of people on it plus numerous other Imperial outposts. The solar system he destroyed was home to a military academy but had civilians, even if it didn't it was still an illegal attack by a civilian against a military target.

Sure dude was influenced by a Sith Lord but he still did it, he still killed millions. And I don't even think he got a stern talking to.

[Darth Yan]

NJO was sprawling and inconsistent. People saying Luke being the hero in TUF is cool. But once you've developed Jacen and Jaina to that point and then don't use them in the grand finale then it smacks of waste. Likewise developing and killing Anakin only to have to repeat the 'sense vong with the force' bit with Jacen in Traitor.

They obviously tried to fix this with LotF. Only 9 novels written by only three authors and three of their most popular authors. (Denning and Travis were very well thought of at the time) They just failed by making it a massive stupid retread of the PT.

It was actually TUF that made me stop reading books later in the timeline. It was a none awful ending but I had no inclination to travel further with the story.

Jane WAS in the finale and more of the hero (he fights Onimi the actual supreme overlord). Luke fights the Dragon (Shimmra). Also, they confirmed that Anakin was a decoy protagonist. The idea was that one of the brothers would be more confident warrior and the other would be more sensitive and quiet. In the end the warrior would die, the sensitive one would discover his inner badass and be the hero. Originally anakin would be the sensitive one but lucas nixed that so they gave it to Jacen. I loved Unifying Force because it felt like a culmination. Jacen's duel with Onimi is a great climax to the series and it actually does the job (when Onimi dies the citadel explodes, which causes the long to stand down)

NJO certainly had its flaws. But large portions of it were also pretty good, and I actually especially liked Traitor for how it developed Jacen from being the most useless NR-aligned character in the series (no mean feat, considering Borsk Fey'lya's entire schtick was to be a useless obstructionist politico) into someone with a unique perspective on the Force different from the traditional Jedi, sort of like the Aing-Tii or the people from BFC.

Then it turned out that no, Vergere was actually full of shit and she was really a wannabe Sith all along, and in part due to her tutelage Jacen decides that being a Sith Lord was the way to go? Everything I heard about that mess finally turned me off the old EU. I mean, sure, back in the Bantam era the EU was plagued with rather formulaic Sith superweapon/warlord of the week nonsense, but the galaxy still came across as being genuinely better off under the NR than under the Empire. And sure, the Legacy comics establish that things have regressed a century later, but it's one thing for the galaxy to fall apart again after our heroes die. But the takeaway from LOTF and FOTJ is that the galaxy doesn't even bother to wait for them to die before undoing everything they'd spent they life's working for. So yeah, my vote goes to FOTJ.

That was Troy Denning's fault. He didn't like ambiguity and so butchered Stover and Luceno (Luceno wrote the outline for the NJO) and ignored that Vergere CONDEMNED the "anything you do is okay as long as you have pure intent" mindset. Troy Denning was a flawed writer; he could do action but that's it.

[Galvatron]

And thats exactly what happened. Kyp Durron destroyed an entire solar system and the millions of people on it plus numerous other Imperial outposts. The solar system he destroyed was home to a military academy but had civilians, even if it didn't it was still an illegal attack by a civilian against a military target.

If memory serves, the Carida system was a fortified Imperial stronghold and its ambassador had just lethally poisoned Mon Mothma. Wouldn't that make it a legitimate target for retaliation by the New Republic? If so, I can't help but wonder if the New Republic was any more mindful of civilian casualties on the other side than, say, the Allied Forces were during WW2.

And let's not forget all the plumbers, aluminum siders and roofers who died when the second Death Star was destroyed.

[Crazedwraith]

Jane WAS in the finale and more of the hero (he fights Onimi the actual supreme overlord). Luke fights the Dragon (Shimmra). Also, they confirmed that Anakin was a decoy protagonist. The idea was that one of the brothers would be more confident warrior and the other would be more sensitive and quiet. In the end the warrior would die, the sensitive one would discover his inner badass and be the hero. Originally anakin would be the sensitive one but lucas nixed that so they gave it to Jacen. I loved Unifying Force because it felt like a culmination. Jacen's duel with Onimi is a great climax to the series and it actually does the job (when Onimi dies the citadel explodes, which causes the long to stand down)

Eh, I read it once long ago. But that's the impression I had at the time. I remember the cliche hidden master rubbish with Onimi as well. It certainly tried it's best to bring all the NJO's disparate points together. As a personal opinion I just don't remember it working.

As far as I recall, they were going to go all the way with Anakin and GL stopped it and told them to kill Anakin Solo as he would be confused for Anakin Skywalker. (Though don't ask me for a source on that) There was no grand design there. Even if there was there was no point spending two books with all the 'know thy enemy' with Anakin and then repeat in one (albeit superior) book with Jacen. They could do that theme without a point for point rehash.

The fact they back tracked and made his new philosophy and development turn him to the darkside also doesn't make me think it was planned all along.

[Joun_Lord]

If memory serves, the Carida system was a fortified Imperial stronghold and its ambassador had just lethally poisoned Mon Mothma. Wouldn't that make it a legitimate target for retaliation by the New Republic? If so, I can't help but wonder if the New Republic was any more mindful of civilian casualties on the other side than, say, the Allied Forces were during WW2.

And let's not forget all the plumbers, aluminum siders and roofers who died when the second Death Star was destroyed.

Yeah Carida was home to the Empire's finest military academy, though I don't think it was fortified, and the ambassador Furgan had poisoned her. However blowing away an entire solar system for the attempted assassination of a head of state is not exactly something the good guys should be doing or okay with. Even if it was a legitimate target, which at the very least it might be to bring the ambassador to justice, that would be the job for the NR military, that would be a military attack against military targets. Kyp was not a member of the NR military nor acting under their orders. Kyp didn't just bomb the Academy, he bombed everything. I don't even think he did it because of Mom Mothman, I think he did it because of his brother.

The NR probably had the mindset that any civilian causalities are for the greater good and may be unavoidable. I would think, I would hope, that they wouldn't directly target civilians like the Empire did, like the Axis and Allies here on Earth did at times. But they certainly seemed fine with some civilian blowing up a shitton of civilians. Kyp blowing up Carida would be like if some civilian during WW2 hijacked a nuke and dropped it on Hiroshima because his brother went down with the Arizona. There could be made the argument that Hiroshima was a legitimate target, that the Allies dropping a nuke on it even though it was a mostly civilian target could be justified for the greater good and I'm saying the argument could be made not that its the correct argument. There isn't much of an argument to be made for the civilian doing the same thing.

[PREDATOR490]

I prefer Anakin over Jacen.

Jacen spent way too much time moaning and ultimately felt completely worthless. Sitting in a closet while shit is going on around him was an epic failure. Additionally, I thought it was a decent concept of trying to redeem the name of Anakin Skywalker since this character would always end up being judged against Vader. Instead, it would appear the Jacen sunk into becoming Vader 2.0.

Michael Stackpole - Dark Tide Onslaught and Ruin
Aaron Allston - Rebel Stand / Rebel Dream

I liked the X-Wing books even if they dated very badly and hilariously copied from shitty game mechanics. The nods back to their X-Wing books did at least feel like the EU was aging and acknowledging the time rather than the stupid closed book system that went on for 30 years in Star Wars.

[Q99]

And sure, the Legacy comics establish that things have regressed a century later, but it's one thing for the galaxy to fall apart again after our heroes die. But the takeaway from LOTF and FOTJ is that the galaxy doesn't even bother to wait for them to die before undoing everything they'd spent they life's working for. So yeah, my vote goes to FOTJ.

Also, one thing Legacy-the-comic has- this go around, there's enough legacy left behind by our previous heroes to give the current generation much more of a fighting chance. The Jedi are more ready this time. Luke's spirit helps Cade, and a Vong descended from those turned from a foe to a friend by Luke, gives Cade his lightsaber. Basically, it's round two where the Sith again start with a sucker punch, but aren't sent down for the ten count this time.

I do give Fate some credit in retconning Jacen's fall to have a *bit* stronger motives (he had direct vision of a Bad End he'd want to avoid even at great cost)... by, of course, borrowing from the better comic's villain.

[Sea Skimmer]

I avoided most of the really bad stuff by being late to the game and steered away from it, but the first three or four NJO books were horrible to the point of being difficult to read. That series was better in the middle, the end drops back off and clearly had nowhere decent or foreplanned to go so I never finished it. Lots of novels were just plain stupid, meant for eight year olds without it being intentional, or steered away from canon logic, but NJO seemed like it was actively trying to write badly.

[Darth Yan]

Unifying Force and Final Prophecy are actually pretty phenomenal. Unifying force i'd dare say is up there with the movies.

[Q99]

I consider Black Fleet to be proto-vong (un-starwarsy 'evil' species), only less cool and with less cool plots surrounding them/less interesting stuff for the heroes to do.


Also another good Vong thing: The Invasion comic. It doesn't get a proper end, but it was made after the books, with the benefit of hindsight, and with a cool story arc.

[Darth Yan]

I avoided most of the really bad stuff by being late to the game and steered away from it, but the first three or four NJO books were horrible to the point of being difficult to read. That series was better in the middle, the end drops back off and clearly had nowhere decent or foreplanned to go so I never finished it. Lots of novels were just plain stupid, meant for eight year olds without it being intentional, or steered away from canon logic, but NJO seemed like it was actively trying to write badly.

I'll say it again. final prophecy kicked ass, as did unifying force

[Ralin]

Yeah Carida was home to the Empire's finest military academy, though I don't think it was fortified, and the ambassador Furgan had poisoned her. However blowing away an entire solar system for the attempted assassination of a head of state is not exactly something the good guys should be doing or okay with. Even if it was a legitimate target, which at the very least it might be to bring the ambassador to justice, that would be the job for the NR military, that would be a military attack against military targets. Kyp was not a member of the NR military nor acting under their orders. Kyp didn't just bomb the Academy, he bombed everything. I don't even think he did it because of Mom Mothman, I think he did it because of his brother.

The NR probably had the mindset that any civilian causalities are for the greater good and may be unavoidable. I would think, I would hope, that they wouldn't directly target civilians like the Empire did, like the Axis and Allies here on Earth did at times. But they certainly seemed fine with some civilian blowing up a shitton of civilians. Kyp blowing up Carida would be like if some civilian during WW2 hijacked a nuke and dropped it on Hiroshima because his brother went down with the Arizona. There could be made the argument that Hiroshima was a legitimate target, that the Allies dropping a nuke on it even though it was a mostly civilian target could be justified for the greater good and I'm saying the argument could be made not that its the correct argument. There isn't much of an argument to be made for the civilian doing the same thing.

I don't have the time/energy to lay out my opinion on the poll question (hint: fuck Darth Dubya, liked the NJO, Darksaber was awesome), but with Kyp I figure a lot of it was a combination of recognizing that he was an adolescent from a traumatic background who was under some pretty serious malevolent influence, the fact that Luke personally was a hero with a great deal of moral authority whose the judgment the New Republic leadership was inclined to defer to when it came to Jedi/Force related stuff, and the unspoken understanding that executing Kyp might have made the only Jedi Master in the galaxy angry.

I mean, you say that he got off without punishment and that’s true for the most part, but if I remember right he was pretty torn up with guilt over the whole thing himself for a good long while afterward. And there wasn’t a lot of middle ground between executing him and handing him over to Luke to rehabilitate. The kid was just too powerful to incarcerate barring extreme measures like building a prison on Myrkr just for him. And that still leaves the chance of someone breaking him out or something, and pretty much ensures that this very powerful Force sensitive individual will be hostile to the New Republic in the future. Making him break rocks or whatever doesn’t do anyone any good. Far better to just hand him off to Luke and trust that Luke can keep him on the right track so that he becomes an asset in the future. There was a war on, after all, and he did ultimately save all sorts of lives later on.

[Galvatron]

Was it ever explained why Kyp Durron was more powerful than a fucking Skywalker?

[Joun_Lord]

I don't have the time/energy to lay out my opinion on the poll question (hint: fuck Darth Dubya, liked the NJO, Darksaber was awesome), but with Kyp I figure a lot of it was a combination of recognizing that he was an adolescent from a traumatic background who was under some pretty serious malevolent influence, the fact that Luke personally was a hero with a great deal of moral authority whose the judgment the New Republic leadership was inclined to defer to when it came to Jedi/Force related stuff, and the unspoken understanding that executing Kyp might have made the only Jedi Master in the galaxy angry.

I mean, you say that he got off without punishment and that’s true for the most part, but if I remember right he was pretty torn up with guilt over the whole thing himself for a good long while afterward. And there wasn’t a lot of middle ground between executing him and handing him over to Luke to rehabilitate. The kid was just too powerful to incarcerate barring extreme measures like building a prison on Myrkr just for him. And that still leaves the chance of someone breaking him out or something, and pretty much ensures that this very powerful Force sensitive individual will be hostile to the New Republic in the future. Making him break rocks or whatever doesn’t do anyone any good. Far better to just hand him off to Luke and trust that Luke can keep him on the right track so that he becomes an asset in the future. There was a war on, after all, and he did ultimately save all sorts of lives later on.

I recognize all that. Kyp had a sorry lot in life. His family was destroyed, his parents dead, his brother kidnapped to serve the people that did it, raised in a hellish slave labor spice mine probably while trying to avoid giant sandworms, and then was influenced by Exar Kun. He was powerful in the force and Luke might wanted to have protected him.

And all that should be taken into account but so should his monstrous crime. He willfully killed millions, under the influence of Kun or not he was still on control of actions. He choose to do those things.

I'm sympathetic to Durron, but I'm the kinda guy who sympathizes with stormtroopers so maybe my sympathy meter is busted, but being sympathetic does not mean letting him get away with his crimes. Its like in the real world where a brutal murderer talks about how he was abused as a child, how he never had any opportunities, how he was genuinely sorry for what he did though not sorry enough to not do it. You can sympathize with the guy, think it sucks how his life turned out, but still think they guy should be executed or spend the rest of his life in prison.

It shouldn't have even came down to force stuff either. Yeah Kyp was influenced by Kun but its not like he force lightning Carida. He stole a impounded weapon of war (which was stupidly put in the gas giant nearest to the only people who could pull it out) and used it to commit mass murder. He committed a war crime, he blatantly targeted civilians, targeted military targets he was not actually at war with, and even committed terrorism (one of the reasons for targeting the nebula Daala was hiding in was the terror it would inflict on the Imperials). He wasn't even like Luke blowing up the Death Star and killing millions, Luke was part of a paramilitary group, was defending himself, and others. Kyp sought out Carida and attacked it. And Mon Mothma, pretty much on her death bed said, "Fuck it, ain't our problem". I'm remembering why I really hated Mon Mothman in the EU.

Yeah there was a war on but a war that Durron committed war crimes in. Saving him for the war effort would be like if the Allies captured Hitler and spared him to fight the Japanese. Sure Hitler might have been a effective asset but he killed 6 or 12 million people depending on who you ask and not even personally, just through his orders. Kyp personally killed an entire solar systems worth of people, a wannabe Tarkin. Should they have not imprisoned or executed Tarkin if they caught him?

Now I do understand the reasons for saving him both in universe and out but I just really don't agree with them and think in universe it morally makes the NR little better then the Empire. And nowhere near as cool looking.

[Captain Seafort]

He committed a war crime, he blatantly targeted civilians, targeted military targets he was not actually at war with

When? The only targets he hit were Carida and Daala's fleet, both of which were part of the military forces of the Empire - a state at war with the New Republic. Kyp, as a Jedi, was answerable to the New Republic executive branch, as demonstrated by the precedent of the Clone Wars and the fact that Luke specifically sought and obtained the authorisation of the New Republic's senior leadership to establish his academy.

[Galvatron]

When? The only targets he hit were Carida and Daala's fleet, both of which were part of the military forces of the Empire - a state at war with the New Republic.

Exactly what I thought. Kyp may have been rogue combatant, but he only struck legitimate enemy targets. Thus, I can totally understand why he only received a gentle slap on the wrist.

Besides, wouldn't it have been a bit hypocritical for ex-rebels to render a harsh judgment upon him?