Rogue One (Spoilers)

[KraytKing]

I replied a few posts above yours what kind of ship it is.

I saw that. I meant to quote you as well, but I guess that part didn't quite work out. I've never really been a fan of all these new half-assed ship designs when there is so much material lying around for the taking. Whatever. I play too much WEG Star Wars.

[eMeM]

I replied a few posts above yours what kind of ship it is.

I saw that. I meant to quote you as well, but I guess that part didn't quite work out. I've never really been a fan of all these new half-assed ship designs when there is so much material lying around for the taking. Whatever. I play too much WEG Star Wars.

This is a ship from RotJ, tho.

well I took the "engineered a flaw so it blows up" to mean that Galen Erso engineered a flaw that made it easier to blow DS1 not that said flaw was the only reason that would happen, I mean to blow DS2 they had to first take out a regulator of some sort then score a direct hit on the reactor itself, for all we know the regulator that Wedge took out was the fix to the flaw DS1 had after all it would be inside the armored shell of the station had DS2 been fully complete, or said regulator was faulty in DS1 and couldn't stop the chain reaction from blowing up the station.

Or that the second Death Star was already under construction and it was too late to do anything about it, besides ensuring an explosion inside the reactor won't happen.
Or that the imperial engineers couldn't figure out what exactly went wrong, only Krennic knew that Erso not only compromised the secrecy of the station but also sabotaged it. And for that matter maybe they didn't even know about Erso's betrayal at all, Tarkin suspected, Krennic knew, but they are both dead, the research facility on Eadu was blown up and all scientists killed.

[Galvatron]

Maybe Erso did nothing more complicated than design the thermal exhaust shaft without any elbows in it.

[Civil War Man]

Though, this does mean that a 'properly designed Death Star' would not have blown up due to an explosion in the main reactor, making me wonder what that means for the Death Star 2.

If I remember correctly, the novelization of ROTJ mentioned that the Death Star 2 design overhauled the heat diffusion systems for the reactors so it uses a larger number of smaller exhaust ports. The reason the Rebellion were forced to attack during construction was because torpedoes wouldn't fit inside the smaller exhaust ports, and during construction is the only time enough of the superstructure would be missing that their fighters could get inside and attack the reactor directly. I believe it also mentioned that DS2 had more anti-fighter guns, making an attack like in Episode IV more suicidal.

So I took it to mean that the design flaw was having exhaust ports that are just big enough to fit a torpedo, so the reactor could be directly attacked from the outside. And the flaw probably managed to slip under the radar because even then it's a long shot, since it could only be exploited by a fighter firing torpedoes (the port was ray shielded, and the DS guns were mostly anti-capital ship turbolasers). Even then, the targeting computers of fighters weren't precise enough. It took a Force sensitive ace pilot to actually make the shot. Even some of the most pessimistic Imperial actuaries probably wouldn't have rated the probability of that happening as high enough to warrant concern, and probably calculated the odds the way a real-life actuary would calculate the odds of your car being hit by three separate meteorites in the same year.

[eMeM]

Maybe Erso did nothing more complicated than design the thermal exhaust shaft without any elbows in it.

That would have helped agains torpedoes turning 90 degree on a spot.

[eMeM]

Sorry for doublepost, can't edit the previous one.

So I took it to mean that the design flaw was having exhaust ports that are just big enough to fit a torpedo, so the reactor could be directly attacked from the outside. And the flaw probably managed to slip under the radar because even then it's a long shot, since it could only be exploited by a fighter firing torpedoes (the port was ray shielded, and the DS guns were mostly anti-capital ship turbolasers). Even then, the targeting computers of fighters weren't precise enough. It took a Force sensitive ace pilot to actually make the shot. Even some of the most pessimistic Imperial actuaries probably wouldn't have rated the probability of that happening as high enough to warrant concern, and probably calculated the odds the way a real-life actuary would calculate the odds of your car being hit by three separate meteorites in the same year.

Erso doesn't mention the exhaust port in his message, he also wants the Alliance to steal the plans of the entire station from some high security data storage facility and doesn't even give them a hint as to what they should look for in the supposedly enormous data files, instead of copying the trench part to his pendrive. I don't think he knew about the port at all.

[Civil War Man]

Erso doesn't mention the exhaust port in his message, he also wants the Alliance to steal the plans of the entire station from some high security data storage facility and doesn't even give them a hint as to what they should look for in the supposedly enormous data files, instead of copying the trench part to his pendrive. I don't think he knew about the port at all.

However, he'd have reason to remain vague in his message in case his messenger was compromised. If he named the exhaust port as the critical flaw in the message, then Imperial Intelligence discovers the exact nature of the sabotage if the pilot gets apprehended and the message recovered by the Empire. However, by not naming it, then the Empire also has to scour the DS schematics for the flaw if they intercept the message. But since the Empire didn't consider a fighter attack on the Death Star to be a credible threat, they may not even recognize the exhaust ports as the critical flaw without prompting, while the Rebellion is desperate enough to launch a fighter attack against the DS, so they would.

In fact, my biggest criticism of his message is that he may not have been vague enough, since he specified that the flaw was in a system connected to the reactors.

[Galvatron]

Perhaps Erso's contribution was designing the power system in a way that would allow for even minor damage to trigger a catastrophic chain reaction. Instead of a grandiose space battle, maybe he envisioned the rebels sending an infiltration team of saboteurs to actually exploit it.

Maybe Erso did nothing more complicated than design the thermal exhaust shaft without any elbows in it.

That would have helped agains torpedoes turning 90 degree on a spot.

Isn't the jury still out on the maneuvering capabilities of proton torpedoes? If the schematics showed every twist and turn in the shaft, then maybe they could have pre-programmed their torpedoes accordingly. If not, well...

[Knife]

Just got back from watching it. Overall i liked it but not sure I dig the grim dark at the end. I started to like the characters and now they're all dead.

That said, plenty of Easter eggs in there. Lots of fun stuff. I really don't get the wanna be jedi guy and the 'defenders of the Whills' and I'm a bit non plussed at the use of crystals for lightsabers and deathstars. AOTC already established composite beam weapons so... meh.

[Galvatron]

Overall i liked it but not sure I dig the grim dark at the end. I started to like the characters and now they're all dead.

I thought their deaths gave the story far more emotional impact.

I'm a bit non plussed at the use of crystals for lightsabers and deathstars. AOTC already established composite beam weapons so... meh.

Crystals have been vital components in lightsabers for decades. It was even canonized in The Clone Wars, years before this movie was written. As for the superlaser, Catalyst established that kyber crystals merely amplify their power.

[Knife]

Overall i liked it but not sure I dig the grim dark at the end. I started to like the characters and now they're all dead.

I thought their deaths gave the story far more emotional impact.

I agree that their deaths gave more umph to the danger of the situation, though like I said, I just spent two hours getting to like these guys. I would have thought they would have had one guy get out to 'tell the tale'. Don't get me wrong, the movie was great, just a bit down that those characters are now gone.

I think it's a bit brave for the studios too, considering all the merchandizing and what not, let alone the want to strike gold again with Rogue 2.

I'm a bit non plussed at the use of crystals for lightsabers and deathstars. AOTC already established composite beam weapons so... meh.

Crystals have been vital components in lightsabers for decades. It was even canonized in The Clone Wars, years before this movie was written. As for the superlaser, Catalyst established that kyber crystals merely amplify their power.

Yes yes, saw both Clone Wars and Rebels with crystals in the lightsabers. Still one of my less loved idea from legends that is now back. I'll live somehow but still think it's dumb. Never read Catalyst and really don't plan on it either. Old legends EU pretty much destroyed any EU for me.

[Galvatron]

I think it's a bit brave for the studios too, considering all the merchandizing and what not, let alone the want to strike gold again with Rogue 2.

Many Bothans: A Star Wars Story.

I'm also convinced that the Han Solo movie will feature the Battle of Taanab.

[Knife]

LOL at the Bothans.

[Gandalf]

This is because you've dedicated yourself to critical thinking when dissecting media. It'd be bloody odd if you'd enjoyed it! One of my key rules of happiness is to never to see a film with anyone who has done a media studies course beyond GCSE level

My two favourite films this year were Batman V Superman and Ghostbusters, so I maintain that my tastes are wholly correct.

Overall i liked it but not sure I dig the grim dark at the end. I started to like the characters and now they're all dead.

I thought their deaths gave the story far more emotional impact.

I agree that their deaths gave more umph to the danger of the situation, though like I said, I just spent two hours getting to like these guys. I would have thought they would have had one guy get out to 'tell the tale'. Don't get me wrong, the movie was great, just a bit down that those characters are now gone.

Considering that none of this lot were in the OT, I walked in assuming they would all die. The only doubt I had was for the lead, and that maybe she would retire to some planet with that other guy as the Rebellion became the Skywalker show.

[KraytKing]

I agree that their deaths gave more umph to the danger of the situation, though like I said, I just spent two hours getting to like these guys. I would have thought they would have had one guy get out to 'tell the tale'. Don't get me wrong, the movie was great, just a bit down that those characters are now gone.

How would you have felt, though, if one rebel managed to miraculously push through the TIE fighters, the remnants of the Shield Gate, whatever the Empire still had in orbit, and jumped to hyperspace before the Devastator arrived? Sure, it was a bit jarring after the tone of the last six films (ROTS doesn't count), but I liked how they stuck to their own rules. They did their best to make that planet hell, impossible to get a message out. It would have been ruined if Cassion and Jyn made it out in the end.

Somewhat related, I like how they finally stopped making Star Wars "for kids." They ruined six, seven, one, and two like that, and fucked up four in the Special Edition with their God-damn Hollywood ethics. The best movie in the franchise, TESB, was also the darkest. It started with the absolute destruction of the Rebel base, followed by torture, dismemberment, and spooky Force omens (Luke: "I'm not afraid." Yoda: "You will be." WTF, man.). Kids are not dumb. They understand the difference between a good story and a bad one. My nephew saw it twice, cried both times, and is going again tonight. He loves it. It's a good movie. Roll with it.

[Galvatron]

Ironic that "it's a kids movie" is no longer a valid defense after Disney acquired it.

[Knife]

Considering that none of this lot were in the OT, I walked in assuming they would all die. The only doubt I had was for the lead, and that maybe she would retire to some planet with that other guy as the Rebellion became the Skywalker show.

There is no reason why we would see them again, if any lived. Their job was over, other jobs elsewhere would be needed. Not like the Alliance did a commando raid on the original Death Star in ANH.

[Knife]

I agree that their deaths gave more umph to the danger of the situation, though like I said, I just spent two hours getting to like these guys. I would have thought they would have had one guy get out to 'tell the tale'. Don't get me wrong, the movie was great, just a bit down that those characters are now gone.

How would you have felt, though, if one rebel managed to miraculously push through the TIE fighters, the remnants of the Shield Gate, whatever the Empire still had in orbit, and jumped to hyperspace before the Devastator arrived? Sure, it was a bit jarring after the tone of the last six films (ROTS doesn't count), but I liked how they stuck to their own rules. They did their best to make that planet hell, impossible to get a message out. It would have been ruined if Cassion and Jyn made it out in the end.

Somewhat related, I like how they finally stopped making Star Wars "for kids." They ruined six, seven, one, and two like that, and fucked up four in the Special Edition with their God-damn Hollywood ethics. The best movie in the franchise, TESB, was also the darkest. It started with the absolute destruction of the Rebel base, followed by torture, dismemberment, and spooky Force omens (Luke: "I'm not afraid." Yoda: "You will be." WTF, man.). Kids are not dumb. They understand the difference between a good story and a bad one. My nephew saw it twice, cried both times, and is going again tonight. He loves it. It's a good movie. Roll with it.

I would be fine. It is SW, it is a fantasy, it is simple powerful themes of good v evil. I get some or most of the team being killed for tension and believably. I'm just a bit shocked all died. I like the movie but it really hurts it for me to sit for two hours learning to like people when all of them die. It's an exercise in futility for me.

[Galvatron]

What if we get to see Wedge die in an upcoming movie?

[DesertFly]

Man, I didn't actually expect them to follow through with it, but I hoped they would all die. That was literally the first thing I mentioned to my girlfriend in the theater after the credits started rolling.

[Elfdart]

Just saw it. Great film, captured a very stark tone. Liked it much more than TFA.

Had a few nerdisms from the fanservice. Like randomly sticking Dutch Vander and Garven Dries in there for no bloody reason in the battle. That was a lot less jarring than 'my friend doesn't like you' guy.

Let's fast-forward to ANH:

The Empire is after two things: the DS plans and the Rebel Base. Now from what was shown in ANH and TESB (where the Yavin personnel and ships fled), the base was made up almost entirely of long-range fighters and the support crews that kept them flying, as well as transports for same. It's mentioned in the opening crawl that the ships from this base were instrumental in winning the Battle of Scarif. After watching the Y-wings disable an ISD like WW2 torpedo planes or dive-bombers knocked out navy ships, it's easy to see why the Empire wants these long-range fighters dealt with. One of the generals in Tarkin's council points out that "The Rebel Alliance is too well-equipped -they're more dangerous than you realize."

So yes, any surviving pilots from Scarif would have flown at Yavin. As I pointed out in another thread, the pilots lost in the battle which was AT MOST a few days before Yavin, would explain why Biggs (who only left Tattooine a day before Luke did) and Luke would walk in and immediately get put in the cockpit.

+ I think Krennic had to go hands on and do counter-espionage despite being a director of weapons design, a freaking tech development dude, because of the social darwinism of the Empire, which is counter-productive.

I mean why is the guy in charge of the weapons development doing something that ISB or COMPNOR should be doing? Because the rest of them would rather he fail so they can advance up the ladder or secure their asses - ala Tarkin. He literally can't get any help or radio other departments for shit the only ones he could trust fit in that wicked looking shuttle he flew around in.

I think he was trying to save his own ass at that point. His job was done, Tarkin snatched the DS right out from under him, and Vader was unsympathetic, too. He was fucked.

I noticed that in the TOTALLY HYPOTHETICAL 2000s Star Wars prequel movies they planned but NEVER IMPLEMENTED, there were no iconic ship designs - in every one of the planned movies they kept on changing vehicle designs, Amidala switched chrome-starships, the Jedis switched fighters, no design "stuck." Unlike in the original trilogy, where the Falcon, X-Wings and TIEs and ISDs returned with every installment.

Indeed. I've suggested time and again that they should have used the iconic OT designs in the prequels.

I don't understand why the EU has ships in the GFFA with such pitifully short service-lives. I'd have made the ISDs hundreds (if not thousands) of years old by ANH and still in service many generations after ROTJ.

Yeah, because everything should stay the same over the course of almost four decades. Military equipment, clothes, hairstyles, architecture...

Like the laws of the Medes and Persians, it should never change, right?

Too bad the crap they introduced in TPM was so bland. The only recurring designs we actually saw throughout the prequels were the Trade Federation ships and droids which, admittedly, weren't altogether awful.

I do wish that AOTC had established that the Republic already had plenty of ships and fighters stored in mothballs, but no troops to use them. I'd have preferred that versus the clones showing up in brand-spanking-new vehicles.

I always assumed that was the case, but then again I'm capable of putting 2 and 2 together.

Or *kept* some of the new stuff they introduced in the first prequel throughout the rest of the prequel. Because I understand the need to change aesthetic to reflect the different era and mood and theme of the Old Republic... but changing it again and again with each movie is silly.

For the most part, they did. But just as in real life, military equipment and uniforms can change radically in just a few years.

[Galvatron]

I do wish that AOTC had established that the Republic already had plenty of ships and fighters stored in mothballs, but no troops to use them. I'd have preferred that versus the clones showing up in brand-spanking-new vehicles.

I always assumed that was the case, but then again I'm capable of putting 2 and 2 together.

I'd have assumed it too if it weren't for the EU claiming that all the vehicles and weapons they used were created alongside the clone army. I don't know how canon all of that is now, but at one time it was up there with the story behind Han's Corellian bloodstripes.

[Shroom Man 777]

Or *kept* some of the new stuff they introduced in the first prequel throughout the rest of the prequel. Because I understand the need to change aesthetic to reflect the different era and mood and theme of the Old Republic... but changing it again and again with each movie is silly.

For the most part, they did. But just as in real life, military equipment and uniforms can change radically in just a few years.

Just because "in real life" people can radically change designs and swap them out all the time and even end up with ugly things doesn't mean we can't criticize how a work of art failed to emphasize iconic designs that become characters in their own right that can stay and become as beloved by the audiences as any human-played character.

We're talking about things from a visual design perspective, the aesthetic, not from some in-universe "realism" which can allow you to justify all sorts of things and dodge all sorts of criticism.

(I mean, yes, there's a total in-universe and out-of-universe "realism" explanation for Jedi just wearing brown monkish robes... that doesn't mean that from an aesthetic perspective seeing so many of them looking all the same is kinda lame...)

This also applies to the villain characters. Maul, Dooku and Grievous never stayed long enough to become built up like Darth Vader. I get that the final battle was supposed to be between the brothers in arms, to emphasize the treason and such... but still.

So for both the visual designs and the baddies... they didn't do proper build up. Imagine pro-wrestling if they never built up the rivalries or the streaks or the motifs, if they kept on shifting the roster, if we never end up having a familiar face who has a narrative that gets built up over time. It just falls flat.

Or like Star Trek. In the decades since TOS and TNG there can be totally understandable and "realistic" reason for them to swap from the iconic Star Trek Enterprise design and replace it with El Generco Space Brick Battleship but no, because for beyond-the-fourth-wall reasons iconic silhouettes and forms are important aspects of branding.

I mean... in ROTS that scene with the Tantative-type ship elicited more reactions than ANY of the unmemorable vessels and designs in the previous movies.

We want memorable designs dammit.

[Elfdart]

I'd have assumed it too if it weren't for the EU claiming that all the vehicles and weapons they used were created alongside the clone army. I don't know how canon all of that is now, but at one time it was up there with the story behind Han's Corellian bloodstripes.

The EU should be ignored as often as possible, especially when the movies (and now TV shows) have explanations that are satisfactory enough. If Palpatine spent a decade creating the clones for his new army, then logically he would also go to the trouble of obtaining weapons and vehicles for them -otherwise they wouldn't do him any good. Where and when this equipment was provided doesn't really matter. It could be requisitioned from existing forces, planned and built concurrently with the clones or stockpiled with a "break glass in case of war" sign in front of the warehouse. Like the discussion about why some blasters fire red bolts, others green or blue, it doesn't matter in the story and until it does in a way that's not retarded, I'll ignore it. Yes, there are limits to my nerd cred.



I promised Darth Yan my take on the movie, so here goes:

I took my nephews to the movie Saturday night and overall it was a load of fun, and huge improvement over that abomination that came out last year, which was just a lazy rehash of Star Wars and Under Siege 2: Dark Territory. The difference between Rogue One and TFA is like the difference between a new band doing faithful medleys of another band's hits and cover acts like The Little River Band where not only is the creator of the original hit material no longer around, but the zombie version offers nothing new. It's a porn compilation of other people's money shots.



Gareth Edwards, the half-dozen writers and the eighty or so producers have created the Star Wars equivalent of an Andrew McLaglen movie: derivative as hell, but willing to have different characters (even if they're stock characters) trample old ground in new ways. Instead of yet another Hero's Journey, they've done a Star Wars version of The Guns of Navarone. The main difference between Edwards and McLaglen is that Edwards and his DP know how to light and frame a shot. I always wished Ridley Scott had directed a Star Wars and while that never happened, you can get the next best thing with Rogue One. The photography is that beautiful.

Like McLaglen's Bandolero!, The Wild Geese and The Devil's Brigade, the characters are nothing special. I can't think of any memorable lines either (which is to be expected: every time you bring in another writer, you water down the script). But you don't need any of that when the heroes are put in a tight spot and the tension builds. Like Navarone, you know the good guys will accomplish their mission, but you don't know who lives or dies until the end.

Now for the things I didn't like:

1) Vader. I get the impression he was shoehorned into this movie, even though the movie would have worked just fine without him. I guess he was Villain Insurance in case Krennic was too weak and CGI Tarkin too fake. The actor in the costume had no shoulders, the head looked too small. It's like they got some Baby Huey from a cosplay convention to do the part and provide his own costume. The pun was weaksauce too.

2) I'm all for experimenting with SFX, but using a CG version of Peter Cushing really rubs me the wrong way. He didn't sign up to do this movie. They re-cast General Dodonna and Mon Mothma, so they could have done likewise with Tarkin.

3) How does the Empire NOT know the Rebels are on Yavin when everyone and their grandmother shows up on the moon for a town hall meeting?

4) Why bother with X- and Y-wings when a blind man with a quarterstaff/blaster can shoot down TIE fighters?

5) No wonder the Empire wasn't fooled for a second by Leia's diplomatic cover. Her ship is docked with a fucking Rebel warship in a battle! Some explanation for how Vader is able to run down the blockade runner would be nice, seeing as how Leia got a head start.

6) The score.

7) Blue Leader. What the fuck? He's the highest-ranking pilot and leads the attack, yet he gets smoked like Porkins.

A few little touches I liked:

1) The AA gun on the rain planet scored two hits. Apparently these gunners went to a different artillery school than the ones on the Death Star.

2) The bombing run on the rain planet -aside from #4 above.

3) The battle in the streets.

4) The smart-ass droid reminded me of Benson from Soap.

5) They had the balls to kill off the bunch. Sam Peckinpah would be proud.

6) Mon Mothma, like veal pen Democrats in real life, still has faith that corrupted institutions can stop a tyrant hell bent on doing evil. She wants Erso to testify before the Senate about the Death Star? That'll be about as effective as a strongly worded report from a bipartisan commission looking into... Ah fuck it I can't even write this whole sentence. My fingers and keyboard are in open revolt against writing this kind of bullshit, even to mock said bullshit.

[Shroom Man 777]

+ I think Krennic had to go hands on and do counter-espionage despite being a director of weapons design, a freaking tech development dude, because of the social darwinism of the Empire, which is counter-productive.

I mean why is the guy in charge of the weapons development doing something that ISB or COMPNOR should be doing? Because the rest of them would rather he fail so they can advance up the ladder or secure their asses - ala Tarkin. He literally can't get any help or radio other departments for shit the only ones he could trust fit in that wicked looking shuttle he flew around in.

I think he was trying to save his own ass at that point. His job was done, Tarkin snatched the DS right out from under him, and Vader was unsympathetic, too. He was fucked.

Any sane organization would put aside petty personal feuds, be it for ass-covering reasons or getting-over (and commanding a death station) reasons, to work together and stop the opposition from getting their goals and prevent allies and co-workers from dying.

Man the Empire's Byzantine politics is preposterous. So predatory.