Another lightsaber varient

[Lord Revan]

lightsaber hilts aren't only spartan to the extreme in design generally speaking (there's pretty much no features that aren't needed there) but also round in cross-section unlike most other swords, which are either teardrop, oval or rectangular (with rounded corners) in cross-section. in real-life swords hilts are the way they are to make it easier to feel the way the blade is orientented so that you have the sharp bits towards you opponent so that sword will cut rather the deflect.

Wonderful observation. Plus probably the different hand-shapes of species using sabers...

Eskrima sticks also lack shaping in the cross-section... I guess because they can represent anything... and it's cheap.

also edge alignment doesn't matter as much for something that's blunt with no real edge. kind of like why baseball bats have round hilts but hockey sticks are rounded rectangular. as long as you hit a baseball head on it doesn't matter what way the bat is oriented while really important that you hockey stick is oriented the right way when you hit the puck (as in the worst case scenario you might even totally miss the damn thing).

[Lord Revan]

We should remember that the Republic had stood for at very least for a millenia but maybe even as long as 20 000-30 000 depending on Obi-wan's line from ANH and the Jedi Order is just as old, nothing is gonna last that long if it is ran by total retards, so it's not that likely that there's any simple ways of improving things beyond the blindingly obvious like "have less corruption" even those might not have simple solutions to begin with.

[FaxModem1]

There's a reason why they made Dooku's lightsaber hilt curved. In fencing, it makes holding the weapon much easier than if the weapon was straight like the rest of lightsabers are, allowing for a more ergonomic grip. Partly it has to do with that Christopher Lee was a fencer and they wanted to bring that into his fencing style, and the other part is that Dooku is a count, so that they were infusing a lot of aristocratic details into his character.(cape, space sailboat, and a fencing style fighting style).

I'm a novice fencer, so I quite enjoyed the touch they added. Wookiepedia even has an article on this type of lightsaber here. It's meant for the lightsaber style Makashi. If you care, each style of lightsaber fighting was named after a Star Wars animal. The big problem with using the style, and the grip, was that it was not that good at deflecting the blasters bolts being shot at you.

But then, it's the EU, so once upon a time, there were the lightfoils, used by the Saber Rakes, an aristocratic dueling club, and these designs are about as rapier as you can get with a lightsaber.

[Zixinus]

A thought on handed-ness: feedback while fighting.
A mayor reason why the hand-and-half grip is commonly used rather than one-haded is because Jedi expect to deflect blaster shots and they may want the extra leverage there. They want to counteract the force without stressing the wrists too much.

[Shroom Man 777]

Sure, it can be like tennis.

[Lord Revan]

There's a reason why they made Dooku's lightsaber hilt curved. In fencing, it makes holding the weapon much easier than if the weapon was straight like the rest of lightsabers are, allowing for a more ergonomic grip. Partly it has to do with that Christopher Lee was a fencer and they wanted to bring that into his fencing style, and the other part is that Dooku is a count, so that they were infusing a lot of aristocratic details into his character.(cape, space sailboat, and a fencing style fighting style).

I'm a novice fencer, so I quite enjoyed the touch they added. Wookiepedia even has an article on this type of lightsaber here. It's meant for the lightsaber style Makashi. If you care, each style of lightsaber fighting was named after a Star Wars animal. The big problem with using the style, and the grip, was that it was not that good at deflecting the blasters bolts being shot at you.

But then, it's the EU, so once upon a time, there were the lightfoils, used by the Saber Rakes, an aristocratic dueling club, and these designs are about as rapier as you can get with a lightsaber.

it should be noted that neither the curved-hilt saber or the lightfoil were that much better then regular straight hilted saber, rather were a specialist weapon for a very specific situation, 1-on-1 saber duels to be exact. It should be noted that most combat jedi would encounter wouldn't be 1-on-1 duels but rather engagements with multiple opponents and most likely against multiple weapon types and Form II is weaker against blasters or (IIRC) multiple opponents.

That would easily explain why neither the lightfoil or the curved hilt sabers aren't that common, they aren't that big of an improvement over regular sabers (Dooku was killed by a Jedi using a normal hilt dispite Dooku being a master of form II so the curved hilt cannot give an insurmountble advantage to the user) and even that improvement is for one specific aspect that doesn't come that often and makes it harder to deal with more common opponents.

[Elheru Aran]

Since lightsabers have an edge everywhere, and never appear to have problems breaking or bending most of the differences in swords are irrelevant from the get go. The point of a rapier was to be a light thrusting sword to deal with gaps in armor for example, this is totally irrelevant as a distinction with lightsabers. Its purely down to how long a blade you want, which would certainly depend on the height and reach of the user.

Just had to address the bolded section--

No.

Rapiers are strictly civilian blades, and they were adopted largely after armour went effectively extinct on the battlefield. They have the cross-section they do in order to be long thrusting blades, poking their way through the fairly thick fabrics people wore back in the day. Duelling weapons par excellence. People didn't wear armour to duel, the era of rapiers being well after the judicial duel or harnisfechten bouts went out of fashion. Occasionally there were a few tricks like chain-mail being worn underneath one's shirt or a mail gauntlet being used to grab blades, but for the most part, the rapier era was well after armour was out.

Now there are military blades that resemble rapiers, often having very similar fittings, but the distinction is a matter of balance-- they're geared much more towards a cut-and-thrust action rather than being a purely thrusting blade. Again, in this period, armour was very much on the decline, being the prerogative of either the very wealthy or the very well equipped military units such as cuiraissers. Your average foot infantry wasn't going to have armour, and it wasn't necessary to bear a sword capable of defeating same.

The key thing is that for defeating armour... you didn't want to use a sword. If you did, you used one designed for the purpose, yes... but you didn't use a toothpick. You used something more like a proper *pick*-- a long, robust bar of steel with edges, a guard and a handle. Or, hell, you used a poll-weapon, which was a premium choice for most armoured fighters on foot anyway. And once gunpowder and muskets became more common, pretty much nobody wore armour. There were a few rare exceptions like Haselrigg's Horse in the English Civil War, but that's about it.

Sidetrack over, move along.

[FaxModem1]

There's a reason why they made Dooku's lightsaber hilt curved. In fencing, it makes holding the weapon much easier than if the weapon was straight like the rest of lightsabers are, allowing for a more ergonomic grip. Partly it has to do with that Christopher Lee was a fencer and they wanted to bring that into his fencing style, and the other part is that Dooku is a count, so that they were infusing a lot of aristocratic details into his character.(cape, space sailboat, and a fencing style fighting style).

I'm a novice fencer, so I quite enjoyed the touch they added. Wookiepedia even has an article on this type of lightsaber here. It's meant for the lightsaber style Makashi. If you care, each style of lightsaber fighting was named after a Star Wars animal. The big problem with using the style, and the grip, was that it was not that good at deflecting the blasters bolts being shot at you.

But then, it's the EU, so once upon a time, there were the lightfoils, used by the Saber Rakes, an aristocratic dueling club, and these designs are about as rapier as you can get with a lightsaber.

it should be noted that neither the curved-hilt saber or the lightfoil were that much better then regular straight hilted saber, rather were a specialist weapon for a very specific situation, 1-on-1 saber duels to be exact. It should be noted that most combat jedi would encounter wouldn't be 1-on-1 duels but rather engagements with multiple opponents and most likely against multiple weapon types and Form II is weaker against blasters or (IIRC) multiple opponents.

That would easily explain why neither the lightfoil or the curved hilt sabers aren't that common, they aren't that big of an improvement over regular sabers (Dooku was killed by a Jedi using a normal hilt dispite Dooku being a master of form II so the curved hilt cannot give an insurmountble advantage to the user) and even that improvement is for one specific aspect that doesn't come that often and makes it harder to deal with more common opponents.

A thing to note, in the EU, Dooku learned the basics for the other forms, but preferred Form II, even as a Jedi Padawan. He even made notes in his textbook that he thinks it fits himself perfectly.

After a few decades of working it, I'm sure he got used to using it for multiple combatants scenarios and other criteria.

It's also not hard to believe that Dooku got cocky after wiping the floor with Anakin the last time and paid for that mistake with his life.

[Sea Skimmer]

No.

Rapiers are strictly civilian blades, and they were adopted largely after armour went effectively extinct on the battlefield.

They appeared around 1500, when people were still fielding fully armored horsemen by the thousands in battle at that point and well after it! Armor did not go extinct for a long time afterward, and around when that happened the small sword appeared as a much lighter weapon in turn. You might think of the Rapier as light, but its still much thicker and stronger then what came later, at least until the 19th century when steel that wasn't rubbish appeared and all the old design limits go out the window.

They have the cross-section they do in order to be long thrusting blades, poking their way through the fairly thick fabrics people wore back in the day. Duelling weapons par excellence. People didn't wear armour to duel, the era of rapiers being well after the judicial duel or harnisfechten bouts went out of fashion. Occasionally there were a few tricks like chain-mail being worn underneath one's shirt or a mail gauntlet being used to grab blades, but for the most part, the rapier era was well after armour was out.

The main point of the rapier was self defense in an era of epic instability and change, and people did in fact walk around in armor back around 1500, which is besides the need to defend yourself against Italian bandits that are just the local mercenary army between jobs. Dueling was only one of its purposes, and as we see once people began making pure dueling swords they tended to be much lighter, because the nature of a duel let you ignore some practical limitations of a general purpose weapon.

Now there are military blades that resemble rapiers, often having very similar fittings, but the distinction is a matter of balance-- they're geared much more towards a cut-and-thrust action rather than being a purely thrusting blade. Again, in this period, armour was very much on the decline, being the prerogative of either the very wealthy or the very well equipped military units such as cuiraissers. Your average foot infantry wasn't going to have armour, and it wasn't necessary to bear a sword capable of defeating same.

Lol. No. In 1500 everyone had armor, and not a small amount of it. It took the Spanish musket to devalue armor, and that really only forced things by about 1650 due to improvements in the ROF, and backed by major improvements in artillery mobility, and even then it was primarily an anti cavalry weapon. At which point BTW the front ranks of pikemen still typically had extensive plate armor, just not so much the rear ranks, though we have good reason to think that was functionally always to case in some armies.

The key thing is that for defeating armour... you didn't want to use a sword. If you did, you used one designed for the purpose, yes... but you didn't use a toothpick. You used something more like a proper *pick*-- a long, robust bar of steel with edges, a guard and a handle. Or, hell, you used a poll-weapon, which was a premium choice for most armoured fighters on foot anyway.

Yeah, and they typically carried swords or long knives as backup weapons. Going in to battle with only a pole weapon was a horrible idea, all the more so since it was the shorter pole weapons which died out first, since they could not counter lancers and lost their other advantages in the face of gunfire, halberds are basically what the musket replaced, while the archers were replaced by smaller firearms earlier. In fact for a lot of the 16th century the dedicated swordsman was on the rise, though with varying weapons, because if you could get them into a tercio style formation they could hack it to pieces after you disrupted it with artillery and muskets. Which BTW, is exactly why the Romans triumphed over the Greeks around 1,800 years earlier and put an end to pike formations for so long after. Disrupt with catapults ect...then charge to close quarters before the enemy adjusts.

And once gunpowder and muskets became more common, pretty much nobody wore armour. There were a few rare exceptions like Haselrigg's Horse in the English Civil War, but that's about it.

Gunpowder was common in 1420, muskets appeared around 1520 but the pike and shot formation was not obsolete until about 1700 when the socket bayonet was invented. Armor was reduced over time sure, but heavy plates did not go away for footmen until the pike also did because it could still stop pistol fire, and using an armor piercing weapon from horseback was not really possible in that era. Certainly it was not with any real battlefield effect. It also made it much harder for enemy swordsmen to actually hack the formation apart, since again, they must target a weak spot or unarmored limb rather then just stab to the torso, and the Spanish and many others trained dedicated swordsmen to do this, literally ducking under the pikes if need be.

Your idea that armor was extinct before even the 30 years war is just false.

[Chris Parr]

Wait, personal armor is extinct? Are you sure?

[Shroom Man 777]

He meant medieval-style armor. For fucks sake.

[Chris Parr]

Yeah, all right.

[Lord Revan]

There's a reason why they made Dooku's lightsaber hilt curved. In fencing, it makes holding the weapon much easier than if the weapon was straight like the rest of lightsabers are, allowing for a more ergonomic grip. Partly it has to do with that Christopher Lee was a fencer and they wanted to bring that into his fencing style, and the other part is that Dooku is a count, so that they were infusing a lot of aristocratic details into his character.(cape, space sailboat, and a fencing style fighting style).

I'm a novice fencer, so I quite enjoyed the touch they added. Wookiepedia even has an article on this type of lightsaber here. It's meant for the lightsaber style Makashi. If you care, each style of lightsaber fighting was named after a Star Wars animal. The big problem with using the style, and the grip, was that it was not that good at deflecting the blasters bolts being shot at you.

But then, it's the EU, so once upon a time, there were the lightfoils, used by the Saber Rakes, an aristocratic dueling club, and these designs are about as rapier as you can get with a lightsaber.

it should be noted that neither the curved-hilt saber or the lightfoil were that much better then regular straight hilted saber, rather were a specialist weapon for a very specific situation, 1-on-1 saber duels to be exact. It should be noted that most combat jedi would encounter wouldn't be 1-on-1 duels but rather engagements with multiple opponents and most likely against multiple weapon types and Form II is weaker against blasters or (IIRC) multiple opponents.

That would easily explain why neither the lightfoil or the curved hilt sabers aren't that common, they aren't that big of an improvement over regular sabers (Dooku was killed by a Jedi using a normal hilt dispite Dooku being a master of form II so the curved hilt cannot give an insurmountble advantage to the user) and even that improvement is for one specific aspect that doesn't come that often and makes it harder to deal with more common opponents.

A thing to note, in the EU, Dooku learned the basics for the other forms, but preferred Form II, even as a Jedi Padawan. He even made notes in his textbook that he thinks it fits himself perfectly.

After a few decades of working it, I'm sure he got used to using it for multiple combatants scenarios and other criteria.

It's also not hard to believe that Dooku got cocky after wiping the floor with Anakin the last time and paid for that mistake with his life.

Obviously, but if the curved hilt gave such advantage to the user that someone straight hilt couldn't beat them if all other things were equal, it wouldn't matter if Dooku was cocky or not. Dooku was a Jedi master (and Sith lord) in his 80s he had more then enough time to learn to compensate of the weaknesses of his chosen style. My point is that Dooku's use of Form II was a personal preference rather Form II being inherently superior to the other 6 forms it's stronger in some ways but weaker in others, thus explaining why most of the hilts we see like the straight hilt 1.5 hand versions, those might not be the best possible for any of the forms but they're "good enough" for all and since no form is inherertly superior to the others it's better to have hilt you can use with all then a specialist hilt for one style.

[FaxModem1]

Obviously, but if the curved hilt gave such advantage to the user that someone straight hilt couldn't beat them if all other things were equal, it wouldn't matter if Dooku was cocky or not. Dooku was a Jedi master (and Sith lord) in his 80s he had more then enough time to learn to compensate of the weaknesses of his chosen style. My point is that Dooku's use of Form II was a personal preference rather Form II being inherently superior to the other 6 forms it's stronger in some ways but weaker in others, thus explaining why most of the hilts we see like the straight hilt 1.5 hand versions, those might not be the best possible for any of the forms but they're "good enough" for all and since no form is inherertly superior to the others it's better to have hilt you can use with all then a specialist hilt for one style.

Except that we've seen other styles used fine with the curved hilt, as both Ahsoka and Ventress have demonstrated in Rebels and Clone Wars, and it didn't seem to impede them in their fights against blasters or lightsabers. Ahsoka's reason for losing against Vader seemed to be not wanting to harm her former master at all, in which case you could argue that Obi-Wan lost against Vader on the Death Star rather than threw the fight. Though, Obi wan was definitely not in his prime then, either. And Ventress is able to gain an advantage against Obi Wan and Anakin through several fights, but is usually interrupted by other factors.

As for Dooku losing against Anakin, again, he seemed cocky and only became unarmed( ), when Anakin got close enough to physically grab his arms and made Dooku unable to move while he chopped. Not many 80 year old men are likely to overpower a twentysomething at his physical prime. We've seen this before in the prequels, with Qui Gon getting winded in his duel with Maul, and eventually being stabbed because of it. It seems age catches up with us all, even if you're a force user.

I'm not stating that a curved hilt is a superweapon against straight hilt lightsabers, merely that it's preferable to dueling because of the ergonomics it gives the hand.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'm not stating that a curved hilt is a superweapon against straight hilt lightsabers, merely that it's preferable to dueling because of the ergonomics it gives the hand.

Yeah because...

Obviously, but if the curved hilt gave such advantage to the user that someone straight hilt couldn't beat them if all other things were equal

Is not how fights and weapons fights work.

This isn't physics or rocket science guys, it's people murdering each other with weapons - space magic and laser swords notwithstanding...

[Lord Revan]

Obviously, but if the curved hilt gave such advantage to the user that someone straight hilt couldn't beat them if all other things were equal, it wouldn't matter if Dooku was cocky or not. Dooku was a Jedi master (and Sith lord) in his 80s he had more then enough time to learn to compensate of the weaknesses of his chosen style. My point is that Dooku's use of Form II was a personal preference rather Form II being inherently superior to the other 6 forms it's stronger in some ways but weaker in others, thus explaining why most of the hilts we see like the straight hilt 1.5 hand versions, those might not be the best possible for any of the forms but they're "good enough" for all and since no form is inherertly superior to the others it's better to have hilt you can use with all then a specialist hilt for one style.

Except that we've seen other styles used fine with the curved hilt, as both Ahsoka and Ventress have demonstrated in Rebels and Clone Wars, and it didn't seem to impede them in their fights against blasters or lightsabers. Ahsoka's reason for losing against Vader seemed to be not wanting to harm her former master at all, in which case you could argue that Obi-Wan lost against Vader on the Death Star rather than threw the fight. Though, Obi wan was definitely not in his prime then, either. And Ventress is able to gain an advantage against Obi Wan and Anakin through several fights, but is usually interrupted by other factors.

As for Dooku losing against Anakin, again, he seemed cocky and only became unarmed( ), when Anakin got close enough to physically grab his arms and made Dooku unable to move while he chopped. Not many 80 year old men are likely to overpower a twentysomething at his physical prime. We've seen this before in the prequels, with Qui Gon getting winded in his duel with Maul, and eventually being stabbed because of it. It seems age catches up with us all, even if you're a force user.

I'm not stating that a curved hilt is a superweapon against straight hilt lightsabers, merely that it's preferable to dueling because of the ergonomics it gives the hand.

I'm not saying curved hilts are useless I'm saying that most people wouldn't get that much benefit from curved hilts that it would replace the straight hilts.

[FaxModem1]

I'm not stating that a curved hilt is a superweapon against straight hilt lightsabers, merely that it's preferable to dueling because of the ergonomics it gives the hand.

Yeah because...

More direct and greater control of the weapon with less effort of the body or hand, being able to use wrist movements instead of most of the arm. Also allows greater handling of the weapon to prevent yourself from being disarmed. Well, unless you're facing a Skywalker, then there's a good chance you'll be disarmed.

I'm not saying curved hilts are useless I'm saying that most people wouldn't get that much benefit from curved hilts that it would replace the straight hilts.

Fair enough, I just see it causing a disadvantage in a one on one fight, which is rather the point of Makashi.

It would be hilarious though that if instead, ROTS had Dooku gunned down because he was ill-equipped to deal with a bunch of Clone Troopers firing at him.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'm presuming supernatural space wizard powers also makes their wrists better able to deal with blaster bolt Wimbledon with a curved grip.

[NecronLord]

It should be noted that there's little practical purpose in adding a guard (except maybe a small lip to prevent the user from loosing fingers to his own weapon(s)) to lightsabre as there's no material in canon that could resist lightsabres and still be thin and light enough to be practical, cortosis is no longer canon as far as I know and even when it was the characteristics of that material were far from clear.

Cortosis is canon again. So is phrik.

Mobilegamesarecanon.

New shit same as the old.