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fgalkin
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Re: Provocation

Post by fgalkin »

MKSheppard wrote:
SirNitram wrote: The reasons are simple as fucking pie: Shrubbery wants to avenge Daddy, and his assistants want the oil.
:roll:

If Bush's assistants really want the oil, then why did Coalition troops move
in quickly to sieze the southern oilfields so engineers could put out the
oil fires there?

Supply and Demand, man. If all of Iraq's oil fields go up in blazes, then the
price of OIL goes up, and Bush's friends stand to make SHEETLOADS of cash.
Unfortunately, you seem to forget that the US is bying most of its oil abroad. Guess who's going to be harmed if the oil prices go up.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Re: Provocation

Post by MKSheppard »

Oil is a commodity. You think freeing up a huge supply of oil
and dumping it onto the world market is going to make Bush's friends
rich? :lol:
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

*The Note: Under the now-defunct ABM Treaty, both the USA and the USSR were allowed up to 100 anti-ballistic missile interceptors for research purposes. The USSR used this clause to deploy a fully operational ABM system around Moscow. We halted our own research until the Reagan era to avoid "excerbating tensions".
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Post by RogueIce »

Ymir wrote:That sounds exactly like the US activities in Iraq, Jugoslavia and Afghanistan. I remember the Chinese Embassy in Belgrad being hit by a US missile, for instance. If i were Jiang Zhemin, i would have been rather angry about that.
There's a difference between intentionally targeting civilians, and a mistake. We don't go out of our way to kill civilians (at least from what I see in this war; never looked at Yugoslavia much). Saddam, however, when he shot at Isreal, had no such reservations.
Ymir wrote:-Ymir, war is not the answer anymore
Than what is? I still haven't seen a good one (from you anyway; I've seen a few from others in this board).
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Re: Provocation

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

MKSheppard wrote:Oil is a commodity. You think freeing up a huge supply of oil
and dumping it onto the world market is going to make Bush's friends
rich? :lol:
*snickers* Well, in fairness to everyone, commodities can be more confusing than stocks. But even that ignores the fact that U.S. companies were already buying Iraqi oil under the oil-for-food program... No, I rather don't think any serious research can support the idea we're going in there for profit.
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Re: Provocation

Post by fgalkin »

MKSheppard wrote:Oil is a commodity. You think freeing up a huge supply of oil
and dumping it onto the world market is going to make Bush's friends
rich? :lol:
Perhaps, if they control the oil, they can make sure that they get most of the profits.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Re: Provocation

Post by MKSheppard »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: *snickers* Well, in fairness to everyone, commodities can be more confusing than stocks. But even that ignores the fact that U.S. companies were already buying Iraqi oil under the oil-for-food program... No, I rather don't think any serious research can support the idea we're going in there for profit.
The thing is, Bush's so called oil-tycoon friends actually PROFITED more
from the UN Sanctions than they will once Iraqi oil is flowing across
the globe freely.

See, the UN sanctions forbade Iraq to sell any oil, except to fund humanitarian aid with. This kept a major oil producing country off
the global market for oil, keeping prices high.
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Re: Provocation

Post by Joe »

fgalkin wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:Oil is a commodity. You think freeing up a huge supply of oil
and dumping it onto the world market is going to make Bush's friends
rich? :lol:
Perhaps, if they control the oil, they can make sure that they get most of the profits.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
That would be an argument if only the oil were not going to be transferred to the new Iraqi government.
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Re: Provocation

Post by MKSheppard »

fgalkin wrote: Perhaps, if they control the oil, they can make sure that they get most of the profits.
I'm afraid you don't understand supply and demand that well.

They could make even more money by having the coalition bomb and
set afire 95% of Iraq's oil fields, thereby keeping Iraq out of the oil
market and oil prices high, allowing them to make more money :twisted:
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ABC

Post by Ymir »

The bigger problem is that someone who is irrational might start running a country with nukes. Then the system goes out the window. What if they don't care? What if they think they can get away with a launch at an ally, or at troops? What if they have some group ideology which will make their commanders obey an obvious suicide order even under circumstances where it's avoidable? All sorts of things like that. And Saddam's regime has demonstrated irrational behaviour of that sort.
Finally a good and reasonable argument, although i haven't mentioned nuclear weapons at all. Of course Saddam Hussien with nuclear weapons would represent a great threath to the world, but i try to see thing in a wider perspective, and with some morale. And that's why i can't se why the US should be allowed to have weapons noone else are allowed to have, except for some brainwashed democracys in Europe and states that noone dares to twarth (China, for instance). Of course, now, the US would never launch a nuclear strike. But in 25 years, how knows what the world will look like? And what in hell gives the US the right to judge Saddam Hussein, when international councils whose authority US itself has accepted (like UN) denies them that right?

- Ymir, still wondering.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Ymir wrote:
- Ymir, war is not the answer anymore
You know, these cute ever-changing sigs aren't going to garner you much respect. I think this fits the definition of "Bill Clinton thirty-second fortune-cookie wisdom soundbyte," to paraphrase what Mike called that statement by a certain loathed sci-fi writer who likes to psychoanalyze Star Wars.

War is always the last answer - But sometimes you have to resort to the last answer. More often than you want to, which is never, and probably disturbingly more often than that. There's a reason for why that is - It's because of how human societal structures are organized. And that won't be changing, because those structures are organized to reflect the very nature of humanity. War will be with us as long as we're human, and if you can't accept that I pity you.

Now can you at least try to find an argument for why this war is wrong, which can actually be debated, instead of making blanket statements as a sig that turn you into a weak and political version of David Brin?
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Post by meNNis »

Eleas obviously doesn't see the simple fact that every country cares more for its own countrymen than for foriegners. It is part of a thing called NATIONALISM.
And he still has not proved that the US does not care about the rest of the world, while having been asked to after making the claim numerous times and is still making it, ignoring the question.
And Dalton, Fuck off. Perhaps you should refresh your memory on what exactly a troll is.
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Re: Provocation

Post by fgalkin »

MKSheppard wrote:
fgalkin wrote: Perhaps, if they control the oil, they can make sure that they get most of the profits.
I'm afraid you don't understand supply and demand that well.

They could make even more money by having the coalition bomb and
set afire 95% of Iraq's oil fields, thereby keeping Iraq out of the oil
market and oil prices high, allowing them to make more money :twisted:
However, we are dependant on Saudi oil, the profits from which are likely to go terror groups. The Bush administration's goal is to reduce that dependancy. Note, that I never said that Bush or his friends wanted to get rich from the oil.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Opinions and reasons

Post by Ymir »

War is always the last answer - But sometimes you have to resort to the last answer. More often than you want to, which is never, and probably disturbingly more often than that. There's a reason for why that is - It's because of how human societal structures are organized. And that won't be changing, because those structures are organized to reflect the very nature of humanity. War will be with us as long as we're human
Sadly, you are absolutely right. But there are good reasons for war, and bad reasons. And attacking a sovereign state because of weapons you guess it might have, and that you won't let it have, although you have the same weapons yourself, hardly seems to be a good reason for me.

Especially not when you give the hell about UN authorithy and the opinions of the rest of the world when you do it.

- Ymir, war should be avoided as long as possible
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Post by Joe »

meNNis wrote:Eleas obviously doesn't see the simple fact that every country cares more for its own countrymen than for foriegners. It is part of a thing called NATIONALISM.
And he still has not proved that the US does not care about the rest of the world, while having been asked to after making the claim numerous times and is still making it, ignoring the question.
And Dalton, Fuck off. Perhaps you should refresh your memory on what exactly a troll is.
meNNis, calm down.
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Re: Provocation

Post by MKSheppard »

fgalkin wrote: However, we are dependant on Saudi oil, the profits from which are likely to go terror groups. The Bush administration's goal is to reduce that dependancy. Note, that I never said that Bush or his friends wanted to get rich from the oil.
-fgalkin
:roll:

We get the same amount of oil from Canada that we get from Saudi Arabia.
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Re: ABC

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Ymir wrote: Finally a good and reasonable argument, although i haven't mentioned nuclear weapons at all. Of course Saddam Hussien with nuclear weapons would represent a great threath to the world, but i try to see thing in a wider perspective, and with some morale. And that's why i can't se why the US should be allowed to have weapons noone else are allowed to have, except for some brainwashed democracys in Europe and states that noone dares to twarth (China, for instance). Of course, now, the US would never launch a nuclear strike. But in 25 years, how knows what the world will look like? And what in hell gives the US the right to judge Saddam Hussein, when international councils whose authority US itself has accepted (like UN) denies them that right?

- Ymir, still wondering.
The US would never launch a nuclear strike against another nuclear-armed State unless fired upon first. I never said anything about employing nuclear devices against non-nuclear States. The problem with them in that case is that in an age of minimal casualty warfare, they're giant hammers which break lots of eggs. However, if a country used bio or chem, there would probably be a tactical nuclear response against their military units in the field.

I don't know why you minimize the nuclear power of France, Britain, Russia, China, Israel, India, Pakistan, etc - These States all have notable influence because of it. France will remain a regional power with some diplomatic influence of note even if the security council is dissolute, because of a nuclear arsenal and a carrier battle group, for example. The USA may be the penultimate force but it does not have total dominance over all nations on Earth - And so areas of counter-influence exist, as they always have.

We're not judging Saddam Hussein - We're just responding to a violation in a cease-fire. And we're a waging a war which is thus being resumed because the cease-fire has been violated. Our basic assumption in removing Saddam is that the cease-fire will not be obeyed unless his regime is removed from the country, and a democracy is installed. This is the military action necessary to make Iraq obey the cease-fire.

The U.N. equation on the second resolution is irrelevant - 1441 mentioned "serious consequences", and the violation of the cease-fire existed prior to 1441. Furthermore, the cease-fire was done under U.N. auspices. So the approval already existed, and indeed existed even prior to 1441 - Which was why, for that matter, Clinton could threaten Iraq as he did after the withdrawal of the Inspectors.
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Post by meNNis »

[quote="Durran Korr
meNNis, calm down.[/quote]

Sorry, its just that Dalton called me on something so I answered.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

meNNis wrote: And Dalton, Fuck off. Perhaps you should refresh your memory on what exactly a troll is.
Well, I think the question is - Does Ymir = Eleas?
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Re: Provocation

Post by Darth Wong »

MKSheppard wrote:
fgalkin wrote: However, we are dependant on Saudi oil, the profits from which are likely to go terror groups. The Bush administration's goal is to reduce that dependancy. Note, that I never said that Bush or his friends wanted to get rich from the oil.
-fgalkin
:roll:

We get the same amount of oil from Canada that we get from Saudi Arabia.
Yes, the entire economy of Alberta is based on it :D

But seriously, you know perfectly well that you can't afford to lop off such a huge proportion of your oil source. It's not about reaping oil profits, but it's also not about humanitarianism, except as a secondary motive. It seems to me that, based on PNAC and other sources, the primary motive is "economic security", of which oil is an important component. Mind you, a lot of people shorten that to "security", because it sounds better that way.
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Re: Provocation

Post by fgalkin »

MKSheppard wrote:
fgalkin wrote: However, we are dependant on Saudi oil, the profits from which are likely to go terror groups. The Bush administration's goal is to reduce that dependancy. Note, that I never said that Bush or his friends wanted to get rich from the oil.
-fgalkin
:roll:

We get the same amount of oil from Canada that we get from Saudi Arabia.
Actually, we get more. But that's not the point. The point is that our #2 oil supplier is a regime that hates our guts. If a friendly pro-US government is installed in Iraq, we can make sure that the money stays in the right hands.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Re: Provocation

Post by Montcalm »

fgalkin wrote:However, we are dependant on Saudi oil, the profits from which are likely to go terror groups. The Bush administration's goal is to reduce that dependancy. Note, that I never said that Bush or his friends wanted to get rich from the oil.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
If he`s trying to reduce our dependancy on oil he`s going too slow,there is all the other alternate energy option its time to use them.
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Re: Provocation

Post by RogueIce »

MKSheppard wrote: :roll:

We get the same amount of oil from Canada that we get from Saudi Arabia.
And that's why we're going to take out Canada next.

...

Uh, did I just say that? Nevermind... :D
Ymir wrote:Sadly, you are absolutely right. But there are good reasons for war, and bad reasons. And attacking a sovereign state because of weapons you guess it might have, and that you won't let it have, although you have the same weapons yourself, hardly seems to be a good reason for me.

Especially not when you give the hell about UN authorithy and the opinions of the rest of the world when you do it.
What about the whole gassing his own population thing? Not to mention the other crimes he's been accused of that are covered in far more detail elsewhere in this board.
Ymir wrote:- Ymir, war should be avoided as long as possible
That I can agree on.

(PS: There were three other replies in the time it took me to type this. How did you all become such fast typers?? :oops: )
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We rise with noble intentions,
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The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
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Re: Provocation

Post by Darth Wong »

Montcalm wrote:If he`s trying to reduce our dependancy on oil he`s going too slow,there is all the other alternate energy option its time to use them.
Like what? Fuel cells? Still being researched. Electric cars? Massive feasibility and deployment problems, not to mention the fact that all of the juice still has to come from somewhere (same problem with fuel cells). Nuclear? The enviro-fascists killed it. Coal? Monster pollution problem. Solar and wind? Don't make me laugh; let's go back to a primitive era when our entire industrial complex is at the mercy of the weather! It's not as if North America is like Denmark. Geo-thermal? Interesting case studies in Hawaii which just happens to be a fucking VOLCANO, but try that through the thick North American continental plate and see how far you get.
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Re: Provocation

Post by fgalkin »

Montcalm wrote:
fgalkin wrote:However, we are dependant on Saudi oil, the profits from which are likely to go terror groups. The Bush administration's goal is to reduce that dependancy. Note, that I never said that Bush or his friends wanted to get rich from the oil.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
If he`s trying to reduce our dependancy on oil he`s going too slow,there is all the other alternate energy option its time to use them.
Now THAT would be screwing his oil tycoon buddies.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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