Why is the Alpha Quadrant not under the Raptor's wings?

[Lord Revan]

We should remember that Vulcans and Andorians didn't just disapear during the time romulans were building up their population. We should remember that the Surakian Vulcans are strong enough militarly that the proto-romulans considered exile their only option and the romulans would really have "up to date" info on Vulcan after the exile so "they're strong enough to beat us" would the default when romulans considered attacking Vulcan. Also do we know when Romulan Star Empire was born, for all we know during the 1100s romulans were split into several nations/clans and were in no condition to wade interstellar war (you got to remember that just because we know something it doesn't mean the characters in universe know that).

[bilateralrope]

That ties into something that often bugs me about Star Trek 'fans' who seem to love ranting angrily about how the Federation's "military" isn't militaristic enough.

Starfleet operates exploratory vessels with a lot more scientific focus than its rivals. And it trains its officers to be diplomats and negotiators as much as military commanders. And this has been a successful strategy for them.

Last time this discussion came up, someone pointed out that the Federation rarely lost a fight against a similar volume of enemy ships, and when they do it's often due to a technobabble exploit.

[Q99]

I bet that Federation ships have better power generation, speed, and shields than many of their peers.

[LadyTevar]

First, those who became Romulans may not have had WarpDrive when they left Vulcan. They may have been on sub-light vessels, or vessels that had proto-impulse technology.

Second, prior to Surak's teachings, Vulcan was a cluster of City-States or small Nations, constantly warring and feuding with each other. This is the mindset that the Romulans took with them, and it is very likely within a few decades of settlement, what the Romulans fell back on. All it would take is a bit of resentment over who got to live where, as Remus is definitely the lesser of the two worlds, and even on Romulus there would be those who were annoyed they were perched on a mountain, not in a wide valley. And this is how feuds start, and how wars start, and thus the Romulans were more concerned with in-fighting at home than with expanding into space.

[Lord Revan]

Indeed. I mean Surak refers to them as "those marching under the raptor('s) banner" that seems a rather poetic way to refer to your opposition when coming from person who founded a philosophy based on logic and rejection of emotions, but what the reason Surak referred to them as such is that (in-universe) that was best name they had for them, because they weren't really unified part of their opposition of Surak and the use of the raptor in their banners.

Some people here seem assume as a tautalogy that romulan culture was fully formed and the romulan people fully unified by the time they reach romulus and it was just matter of building their powerbase before going on a war of conquest. However if the romulan culture wasn't fully formed and in fact it took time for romulan culture as we known it to form, it could easily explain why they weren't a dominant power when Earth was still in the middle ages, especially if there was more then 1 competing cultural movement on romulus, since the in-fighting meant meant that actual powerbase the romulans had was worse then simple calculation from population figures would suggest (since faction 1 wouldn't have access to faction 2's resources and the other way around)

[Q99]

First, those who became Romulans may not have had WarpDrive when they left Vulcan. They may have been on sub-light vessels, or vessels that had proto-impulse technology.

They may have been on vessels similar or worse than Khan's sleeper ship.

[Joun_Lord]

That ties into something that often bugs me about Star Trek 'fans' who seem to love ranting angrily about how the Federation's "military" isn't militaristic enough.

For me and presumably alot of people its not the fact they aren't military enough its the fact they are a organization that flies around in armed vessels that will engage in military action crewed by people with military ranks and roles but the insistence that nope, Starfleet ain't a military organization, they aren't soldiers, and combat skills are a minor province in their make up.

Its annoying. They are walking like a duck, talking like a duck, looking like a duck but insisting they are a moose.

They are primarily a exploration force but they are also a military force, they operate like a Navy, their security forces play soldier, Kirk even called himself a soldier. It seems damned nonsensical that Roddenberry went through such great pains to try to deny anything militaristic. Even dumber that he still had them engaging in military action but doing so while showing the Enterprise as a flying mall, taking families, children, piles of scientists who probably wanted to study botany and comets into comet against the borg.

There is a damn good reason exploration and scientific vessels tend to be separate from combat vessels. Some blue shirt with a PhD in flower boning is probably great at what he does but probably doesn't make the best soldier, probably isn't going to respond all that well in combat situation. And some 4 year old would probably do worse.

[Prometheus Unbound]

That ties into something that often bugs me about Star Trek 'fans' who seem to love ranting angrily about how the Federation's "military" isn't militaristic enough.

For me and presumably alot of people its not the fact they aren't military enough its the fact they are a organization that flies around in armed vessels that will engage in military action crewed by people with military ranks and roles but the insistence that nope, Starfleet ain't a military organization, they aren't soldiers, and combat skills are a minor province in their make up.

Like the coastguard?

[Joun_Lord]

Like the coastguard?

Yes, like the Coast Guard which is still considered a military force even if it undertakes alot of non-military roles such as search and rescue and law enforcement.

But the Coast Guard is not alone, it has other branches of the military to support it.

Starfleet takes on the role of the Coast Guard, Navy, Marines, and presumably Army all by itself.

[FedRebel]

Overall from how the romulans are portrayed onscreen, they appear to be extremely isolationist.

in all likelyhood they only expanded beyond Romulus when it became necessary for population and resource reasons, even then they clung close to home.

They never ventured in Earth's direction because Vulcan's too powerful. Two parsecs is too close for comfort.

By the 2150's the only place left for them to expand is Vulcan protected space

[The Romulan Republic]

Like the coastguard?

Yes, like the Coast Guard which is still considered a military force even if it undertakes alot of non-military roles such as search and rescue and law enforcement.

But the Coast Guard is not alone, it has other branches of the military to support it.

Starfleet takes on the role of the Coast Guard, Navy, Marines, and presumably Army all by itself.

The Coast Guard actually is arguably a pretty good analogue for Starfleet.

Though they also seem to take the roles of some other government agencies.

Question: Does the Federation have a civilian law enforcement agency that operates in space, or is that sort of thing just left up to local governments and, in their absence, Starfleet? Their was that cop on Earth in the 2009 Trek film, but other than that I can't think of much either way on the issue.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Honestly, I don't get this hardon people have for forcing the fact that Starfleet has to be a military.

They are the military, yes. In that there is no one else when they're at war. They do fill that function almost entirely.

But the Federation isn't at war most of the time. We saw it a lot in DS9 due to the setting and timing but remember they just had like 30, 40 years of peace. When TNG was in season 1 and 2, they really were the coastguard. And NASA. And shipping all rolled in to one.

By later DS9 yes they were very much a military.

But I don't understand this idea that Picard and co are super leftists lying to themselves or something over the nature of their role in the Federation. I'd think Picard would know, - he's been doing it all his life.

Whether people like it or not, some people in Starfleet at least don't consider it a Military.

I don't know why that's so hard to understand. It's like UN Peacekeepers. Are they a military organisation in and of themselves? Or do they do research and aid and shelters and transport and all sorts of stuff besides?

I think it's more like that.

[FireNexus]

Starfleet is an organization that acts essentially as an all-purpose foreign policy corps. They use military concepts like ranks and chain of command because one of their major roles is military, and because many of their other major roles benefit from military discipline and combat experience. But their military role is something they seem relatively ashamed of.

The hybrid system probably has a few origins. First, there is significant history on Earth of military organizations growing in strength to become key drivers of aggressive or unacceptable foreign policy. Second, the Prime Directive explicitly forbids the Federation from undertaking aggressive military action. Third, Vulcans would likey have been loathe to inelegantly (illogically) expend resources on the obvious military functionality required by the Starfleet explorer vessels while spending additional resources building purpose-built military craft that would useless (or looking for work against the prime directive) during the sizable peaceful periods and out of date by he next time there is a conflict. They may also have worried that, with humans being highly influential and only a few generations removed from gwnocidal maniacs, a single-mission military was dangerous for the stability of the Federation.

And Simon said it best: The Federation strategy has been largely effective. They've expanded rapidly, become a dominant astropolitical and technological power among space-faring civilizations centuries older than theirs in 250 years. They've spent most of that time in peace and largely free of major internal power struggles. And they, despite generally being scorned by other races for being a bunch of pansy-ass goodie two shoes, have been able to Marshall the other great powers in common defense against outside threats.

There is some indication that the whole quadrant is Federation within only a few hundred years. What the Federation loses in military effectiveness by diluting their military power, they gain in being politically stable and generally trusted by their rivals. The result is a rapidly-expanding society which generally everyone sees as trustworthy to the point of naïveté and able to be taken advantage of and militarily defeated with little trouble that seems to win more than they lose and absorb almost every space-faring civilization in their path while technologically besting anyone.

Why in the hell should they change their strategy when it's worked so well for them and literal people from the future have confirmed repeatedly that it will continue to?

[Shroom Man 777]

The Federation isn't all-human, right? So who knows what contributions the alienoids' cultures, societies, militaries and governments had on Starfleet and the Federation government. Plus... non-military maritime hierarchies still had... hierarchies, captains and ensigns and stuff. And I think comparisons and analysis should draw from more than modern military and naval affairs. Back in the Age of Sail... what was the distinction between military naval and civilian shipping anyway?

[Joun_Lord]

The Coast Guard actually is arguably a pretty good analogue for Starfleet.

Though they also seem to take the roles of some other government agencies.

Question: Does the Federation have a civilian law enforcement agency that operates in space, or is that sort of thing just left up to local governments and, in their absence, Starfleet? Their was that cop on Earth in the 2009 Trek film, but other than that I can't think of much either way on the issue.

Honestly don't know. I'd assume for the most part stuff is left up to member worlds to provide their own internal security. Earth might be different where its the seat of the Federation and pretty peaceful. We do see a member of Federation Security in The Search for Spock and thats said to be a civilian organization. New worlds like Bajor have their own police force but if I remember correctly Star Trek Online or something else says its integrated with Starfleet later on.

I don't think we see any Federation era police on Earth and any action on Earth like the changling problems and the coup we only see Starfleet members handling ground work. I don't think we really explored other Federation worlds enough to know if they have their own police or other forces.

Honestly, I don't get this hardon people have for forcing the fact that Starfleet has to be a military.

its not so much the hardon for forcing Starfleet to be a military but the hardon other people have for insisting Starfleet is not a military despite evidence to the contrary. It just seems really stupid to want to have a military style organization that engages in combat, fights battles and wars but wanting to also say its not a military.

Its not entirely a military, certainly Lieutenant Nobody Blueshirt playing with plant dicks is no soldier nor is the kindergarten class (or maybe they are, the 1st Platoon Killing Kindergarteners who's fighting motto is "its nap time for us but its dead time for you", they are the most feared of all Federation soldiers under 3 feet tall, great for fighting in Jefferies tubes ) but other parts most certainly act as a military.

Like you said, it seems really weird that people like Picard and Riker are lying to themselves about their role in the the Federation, that they won't be called upon to be soldiers. Maybe Riker might think that way after decades of relatives peace but somebody like Picard who had engaged in battle on the Stargazer and presumably served in engagements with the Cardassians that got O'Brien such a lengthy military record should know that Starfleet is atleast partially a military.

I dunno, just a problem with Gene trying to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted a show with combat and action but apparently was pretty gung-ho about not having anything military.

[FaxModem1]

We know that Vulcan handles it's own internal intelligence and security. The V'Shar survived until the 24th century. Picard believed he was working with one undercover in Gambit.

Earth's internal politics were supposed to be set up in the DS9 two parter involving the coup, but they cut it all out as it was going to slow down the episode and not really matter to the plot.

We also have a civilian law enforcement agency dedicated solely to time travel, the Department of Temporal Investigations.

In fact, here's a list of crap that is handled by non-Starfleet personnel: link

[Elheru Aran]

Honestly it would be more weird if there *weren't* civilian agencies both in the Federation and on the various planets we see. If Starfleet was doing *everything*, that would be even more totalitarian than it already gets sometimes.

[bilateralrope]

New worlds like Bajor have their own police force but if I remember correctly Star Trek Online or something else says its integrated with Starfleet later on.

Bajor wasn't a member of the Federation during DS9. STO isn't canon.

Though it does show the success of Federation policy. Cardassians occupied it for about a century and still had an insurgency problem. They left. The Federation moved in, did diplomacy for a while. Every indication is that Bajor willingly joined the Federation after DS9.

Plus, when the Federation was desperate enough to ask the Bajoran gods for help, those gods said 'yes'

[Lord Revan]

I wouldn't be surpriced that some worlds had their own semi-independent police/security forces under starfleet administration so that starfleet can focus on research and exploration and doesn't have to keep large fleet in federation territory for anti-piracy and anti-smuggling missions. basically these forces would be answerble to Starfleet HQ but as long as they obeyed the rules of the agreement there wouldn't be a starfleet admiral giving in command and those units would only need to worry about local issues.

[NecronLord]

There's no better answer for this than Diane Duane's books in my opinion.

I'm not sure they are on par with the UFP in all areas. In fact, I seem to recall that their max. warp speed is lower, though unfortunately I don't recall a source.

Tin Man

The maximum warp speed of a D'Derridex is below that of the Enterprise D, however that's at "safe" modes. They can overload and over-take, but it burns out their drive.

Though as I mention customarily mention, the Valdores have no difficulty overtaking the E in Nemesis, so it's likely a result of design tradeoffs rather than the Romulans having less understanding of warp physics.

[Crazedwraith]

Though as I mention customarily mention, the Valdores have no difficulty overtaking the E in Nemesis, so it's likely a result of design tradeoffs rather than the Romulans having less understanding of warp physics.

When's this? In the final fight the Valdores caught up after the EE/Scimitar fight had gone sublight. Not at FTL. IIRC.

It's also a different time period. The Roms can have a lesser understanding in TOS/TNG and have caught up by Nemesis.(possibly by dominion war tech exchanges/stolen dominion tech)

[Prometheus Unbound]

There's no better answer for this than Diane Duane's books in my opinion.

I'm not sure they are on par with the UFP in all areas. In fact, I seem to recall that their max. warp speed is lower, though unfortunately I don't recall a source.

Tin Man

The maximum warp speed of a D'Derridex is below that of the Enterprise D, however that's at "safe" modes. They can overload and over-take, but it burns out their drive.

Though as I mention customarily mention, the Valdores have no difficulty overtaking the E in Nemesis, so it's likely a result of design tradeoffs rather than the Romulans having less understanding of warp physics.

Well I did say D'Derridex and Enterprise D specifically

We know late 24th C Romulan engines are just as fast as Federation ones as the Scimitar caught up with them.

[Zor]

That ties into something that often bugs me about Star Trek 'fans' who seem to love ranting angrily about how the Federation's "military" isn't militaristic enough.

I find the notion that positing that some people who have certain opinions and criticisms of a show that you don't share disqualifies them from being fans of it to be kind of snobbish.

Zor

[NecronLord]

If you're very conservative with how long you think it takes Donatra to get underway you can make an argument that they're not faster, but it's fairly

At the very least, the Scimitar can match pace.

Also the Ent-E is a top-class ship, one of only a dozen, while D'Deridexes are standard issue ships seen everywhere. The apposite comparison for a D'Deridex is the Warp 7 Miranda class.

[Simon_Jester]

That ties into something that often bugs me about Star Trek 'fans' who seem to love ranting angrily about how the Federation's "military" isn't militaristic enough.

I find the notion that positing that some people who have certain opinions and criticisms of a show that you don't share disqualifies them from being fans of it to be kind of snobbish.

Zor, I have a reason for this.

Being offended, ranting angrily as I said, about Starfleet's "failure" to be a military-oriented service* is in large part missing the entire point and message of Star Trek.

I don't feel like someone can be a real fan of a work of art, while entirely missing the point of that work of art, and criticizing it for not being something totally different. If I love something, I will endeavour to understand it. And while I may not approve of it unconditionally, I will at least respect it for what it is, rather than demanding it change into some kind of totally mutant form.
_________________________________

*This is distinct from wanting them to use common sense, and do things like 'occasionally practice fighting' and 'not ship children into dangerous environments.' There are plenty of civilians who practice with various weapons, and there are lots of nonmilitary organizations that don't practice "take your kids to work" day because work is dangerous.