What did I learn from TIME today...?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

No one said it should take place now. She said that Saudi Arabia is a problem that will be taken care of eventually.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

That is correct. It could be as far off as a decade, easily.

[Alex Moon]

No one said it should take place now. She said that Saudi Arabia is a problem that will be taken care of eventually.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

That is correct. It could be as far off as a decade, easily.

Does it even have to be militarily? A stable, secular, democratic Iraq could possibly encourage the same in neighboring nations over time.

[RogueIce]

Purgatorio, (Excerpt, Canto VI)

But Virgil went straight up to him and asked
directions for the best way to ascend.
The shade ignored the question put to him,

asking of us, instead, where we were born
and who we were. My gentle guide began:
"Mantua..." And the other, until then

all self-absorbed, sprang to his feet and came
tow him: "O Mantuan, I am Sordello
of your own town" - and the two shades embraced.

(Ah, slavish Italy, the home of grief,
ship without pilot caught in the raging storm,
no queen of provinces - whorehouse of shame!

How quick that noble soul was to respond
to the mere sound of his sweet city's name,
by welcoming his fellow citizen -

while, now, no one within your bounds knows rest
from war, and those enclosed by the same wall
and moat, even they are at each other's throats!

"Mantua..."

"Oh Mantuan, I am Sordello of your own town..." Dante, in a time of strife and uncertainty, could pack in two short sentences all the emotion and intensity and explaination of the world.

So you see, Eleas, so many people here on ASVS, on SD.net - who seemed to be my friends - Yourself, included - they have come out so strongly against the war. And I must sigh, and shudder, at the vehemence, and know something is lost.

For even as your opposition, even as the polarization here, dims something, I have made many friends with my stance - Mostly Americans. Which is why I thought of Canto VI. In times like these, the nation-state as with the city-state binds us. Your country is drawn to a certain orbit, mine forges its own destiny, which I must support to the bitter end.

And so I have something uniquely in common with anyone who can say their name, and utter in addition to it "I am an American", than with so many around the world. And I pity it, because something is lost in that. But I'm also reassured, because that bond of the citizens of a country has always been there, and so as I read what you have written, I am not angered, or surprised. You will do as your nation does, and I will do as mine does, and we will maintain the faith of each other's courses in opposition. Your friend is Ymir, and mine are those I have made among those who hold America's course.

Of course, I do not mean to a sunder a friendship - but where such vehemence is found on issues of life or death, a coolness arises. And so it is today.

Beautiful and quite well written, Duchess.

[Axis Kast]

Oh, I didn't say that Hillary Clinton was a sure winner. She's not. In fact, I think she'd lose by a fair margin. I just said she'd be better off than Condi Rice. There's too much going against our National Security Advisor.

For one thing, she's black. That's going to work against her no matter how you feel about race relations in this country. There's some question as to whether Colin Powell even has a chance given his background. An African-American and a woman in the same stroke? Unlikely at best.

If you want to dig deeper, she's tarnished by association with Cheney, Rumsfeld, and worse, Ashcroft. "National Security Advisor" has become too sinister this day and age. She's already embroiled in a situation she can't get out of while still looking all that good. No. She won't be on the ballot. More likely we'll see Bush and then Jeb or Powell (depending on whether or not the Flordian governor declared candidacy). McCain probably won't try to run again despite wide support. He's too much a radical for the Republican Party. I also doubt whether Cheney'd get far.

[fgalkin]

Purgatorio, (Excerpt, Canto VI)

But Virgil went straight up to him and asked
directions for the best way to ascend.
The shade ignored the question put to him,

asking of us, instead, where we were born
and who we were. My gentle guide began:
"Mantua..." And the other, until then

all self-absorbed, sprang to his feet and came
tow him: "O Mantuan, I am Sordello
of your own town" - and the two shades embraced.

(Ah, slavish Italy, the home of grief,
ship without pilot caught in the raging storm,
no queen of provinces - whorehouse of shame!

How quick that noble soul was to respond
to the mere sound of his sweet city's name,
by welcoming his fellow citizen -

while, now, no one within your bounds knows rest
from war, and those enclosed by the same wall
and moat, even they are at each other's throats!

"Mantua..."

"Oh Mantuan, I am Sordello of your own town..." Dante, in a time of strife and uncertainty, could pack in two short sentences all the emotion and intensity and explaination of the world.

So you see, Eleas, so many people here on ASVS, on SD.net - who seemed to be my friends - Yourself, included - they have come out so strongly against the war. And I must sigh, and shudder, at the vehemence, and know something is lost.

For even as your opposition, even as the polarization here, dims something, I have made many friends with my stance - Mostly Americans. Which is why I thought of Canto VI. In times like these, the nation-state as with the city-state binds us. Your country is drawn to a certain orbit, mine forges its own destiny, which I must support to the bitter end.

And so I have something uniquely in common with anyone who can say their name, and utter in addition to it "I am an American", than with so many around the world. And I pity it, because something is lost in that. But I'm also reassured, because that bond of the citizens of a country has always been there, and so as I read what you have written, I am not angered, or surprised. You will do as your nation does, and I will do as mine does, and we will maintain the faith of each other's courses in opposition. Your friend is Ymir, and mine are those I have made among those who hold America's course.

Of course, I do not mean to a sunder a friendship - but where such vehemence is found on issues of life or death, a coolness arises. And so it is today.

Wow.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Joe]

I don't think Hillary would stand much of a chance; she's too battle-scarred, quite frankly. Too many people, including many Democrats, still hold a grudge against her.

I just find it hard to believe that a Senator who gets booed en masse at public functions in her own state can be President.

[Alex Moon]

Oh, I didn't say that Hillary Clinton was a sure winner. She's not. In fact, I think she'd lose by a fair margin. I just said she'd be better off than Condi Rice. There's too much going against our National Security Advisor.

For one thing, she's black. That's going to work against her no matter how you feel about race relations in this country. There's some question as to whether Colin Powell even has a chance given his background. An African-American and a woman in the same stroke? Unlikely at best.

If you want to dig deeper, she's tarnished by association with Cheney, Rumsfeld, and worse, Ashcroft. "National Security Advisor" has become too sinister this day and age. She's already embroiled in a situation she can't get out of while still looking all that good. No. She won't be on the ballot. More likely we'll see Bush and then Jeb or Powell (depending on whether or not the Flordian governor declared candidacy). McCain probably won't try to run again despite wide support. He's too much a radical for the Republican Party. I also doubt whether Cheney'd get far.

Hasn't there been talk of running Condi Rice as VP in 2004?

[fgalkin]

SirNitram, i might continue discussing with you when you stop assaulting me personally. Just because everyone else here seems fine with calling eachother 'assholes' and 'moronboy' it doesen't mean i have to resort to such behavior, or accept being object for it. I am able to have a civilized discussion, although i'm rather dissapointed on civilisation as a whole.

- Ymir, have no polar bears in Sweden

As they say in Russia, скатертью дорожка.

If you leave, you won't be missed.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Dalton]

Dalton, Durandal - Once again, guys, I owe you. I know I've been, at least partially, attacking your home. That can't be fun. Seeing you come to the rescue is... humbling.

Wot be friends for, sucka?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Does it even have to be militarily? A stable, secular, democratic Iraq could possibly encourage the same in neighboring nations over time.

Iraq had a civil society once, which is required for democracy. Most of its members have fled to foreign countries. The idea is that a U.S. military occupation will make Iraq stable enough for them to return, after of which a working democracy can be implemented.

States which also have civil societies in the Mid-East but are not democracies include Iran, Syria, and Egypt.

The KSA doesn't have a civil society, though. Like Yemen and the UAE, it's run by a massive extended family of princes (potentially up to 9,000), who treat the country as a private farm and all of the people as their possessions. They bring in foreign workers to do anything technical, who are literally treated as possessions in many cases. So it's a society incapable of doing anything beyond vaguely medieval technology without outside help, which it gets by virtue of its oil money...

...And it remains politically at the level of a medieval Arab state, because there's been no civil society to support further development.

This would be fine, because with globalization you'd get one in the long term there, at least, if with a lot of turmoil, etc. The problem is that in the meantime they're earmarking a few billion - real money, not pocket change - to outright terrorism/Wahhabi fundamentalist madrassas each year, not counting private donations of guilty conscience bigwigs who spend their vacations in Bahrain or outright in Great Satan Land with flight attendants.

We need to shut this flow off. Infinite money are the sinews of war - The terrorists won't have the ability to be more than a strictly local nuisance (like the pre-Six Days War Palestinian Fedayeen were to Israel) if we do that. That will require measured steps of going after the financier regimes. The biggest of these is the KSA, but Iraq must be dealt with first, for the economic reasons previously stated.

You can't rebuild the KSA into a democratic country. The reasons some people claim apply to Iraq actually do apply to the KSA. So the best solution is to split it up into small bits that can't do anything, and give the oil-rich areas to other States which are allied and controllable.

[Axis Kast]

[quote] Not that I'd heard, no. Yet you hit upon a novel idea. Were she to run with someone half-appealing, she would be, as a black women, more an asset than anything else. Sort of like Gore intended Lieberman to be in 2000. Rice’s VP candidacy would knock Powell out of the race either way though. There’s no way the American public would vote in the majority for a pair of black leaders. And even if she ran with Jeb, I don’t see how they’d get elected unless (A) the Democratic Party fielded crap, (B) George W. Bush enjoyed a resoundingly successful second term, or (C) the man following George W. Bush’s first term – a Democrat, of course – took us down a wrong road and muddled up everything right good.

As for Saudi Arabia? Marina suggested 2004. I say we need to wait until at least 2008.

[Axis Kast]

Iraq is no lost cause. As Marina pointed out, they had a civil society. To 1981, Iraq was a leader in the Middle East. Hussein instituted a great deal of educational reform, harnessed huge intellectual growth, established world-famous medical schools, and was more or less working well with the West. In Iraq there lies the basis for both first-class infrastructure and parliamentary or representative government led by a clear intellagensia.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

If you want to dig deeper, she's tarnished by association with Cheney, Rumsfeld, and worse, Ashcroft. "National Security Advisor" has become too sinister this day and age. She's already embroiled in a situation she can't get out of while still looking all that good. No. She won't be on the ballot. More likely we'll see Bush and then Jeb or Powell (depending on whether or not the Flordian governor declared candidacy). McCain probably won't try to run again despite wide support. He's too much a radical for the Republican Party. I also doubt whether Cheney'd get far.

Her job doesn't have much association with Ashcroft's - Justice and the NSA are rather different realms. Ashcroft isn't likely to last beyond the 2004 election, anyway.

Besides, there's already been rumours that Rice will run for governor of California against Davis next time. That may take her out of the running for 2008, one grants - Though some interesting permutations could result.

And neither Cheney nor Rumsfeld have the distrust that is typified in the left-wing media among average individuals. Cheney's health, though, likely precludes him from the Presidency. I would suspect that Rumsfeld is just too weird to be President, OTOH, though. A guy who talks Pentagonese to reporters cannot survive the political process.

[Joe]

Rumsfeld seems to be enjoy his reputation as a blowhard.

[Ymir]

Once upon a time, there was a kingdom that had once been a great culture, who taught the humans how to write, how to foretell the future in the stars...and how to wage war. This kingdom was ruled by a evil sultan, who one day decided to invade his neighboring country, a small kingdom by the sea. The sultan of the old kingdom did so, because he wanted the black treasures that was hidden under the ground in the little kingdom by the sea. This enraged the High Council of Wise Men, so they asked their kings, emperors and sultans to help the little country. They did so and drove the evil sultans forces out, but they dared not attack his stronghold, so they left him to contemplate his loss.

Years passed, and the High Councile of Wise Men watched closely, for they had decided that the evil sultan shouldn't be allowed to search out new weapons he could use to wage war anew. Alas, eventually a young but powerful empire beyond the sea was attacked by four dragons. This awoke their fury, and they ignored the High Council and invaded the land south of Amu-Darja. This was believed to be the dragons homeland, although none could really prove that. They just drove its priest-rulers out anyway, because the Empire and everyone else agreed that they where evil, even though there was no such alignments in this world. And the High Council would not object, because they also thought that the priest-rulers where evil.

Later on the kingdom of the evil sultan became the subject on everyones tongue again, because the Empire and a much older but lesser empire decided that the sultan had weapons he was not allowed to have. They couldn't prove this either, but again, everyone decided that the sultan was evil and should be killed. But then something happened. The High Council of Wise Men did not want the two empires to wage war, because they wanted to create a better world for future generations, a world were war was the last resort, and no one had a right to judge anyone else and thus attack them. The High Council wanted to promote a system called 'Democracy' with methods that that system encouraged, for the High Council did very much believe in this democracy idea. The two empires, on the other hand, diden't care much. They also believed in democracy, but they wanted to force it upon everyone everywhere with their military might, thus causing suffering to people, and the High Council could not accept that. They wanted people to develop democracy on their own, so that none should be forced to depend on another. So when the High Council gathered to vote about attacking the evil sultans kingdom, almost everyone voted against. They did not want war in their world.

But the two empires could not wait to show their might, and because they hunted dragons a lot, they was very afraid that more dragons would attack them. So they gathered their forces and fell over the old kingdom of the evil sultan, to crush it once more, as many great warrior-kings hade done before them. In that way, they made a place for themselves in the tomes of history. But would it be a good place in years to come, or would it just awaken more suffering and conflict in the world?

One thing was for sure - the High Council of Wise Men was very sad that the Empires had used their might in such a fashion, and completely ignored the Councils wisdom. The people around the crushed kingdom was also sad, because they did not like the Empires, and did not want them in their part of the world. The Empires claimed that they helped the people opressed by the evil sultan, but even this people would not welcome the Empires, especially not after they had invaded their country, even though they drove the evil sultan out. So almost no one had wanted this to happen, and around the world people was both afraid of what consequences this would have, and angry at the ignorant Empires. But the Empires did not care, sang their national anthems and sat down and enjoyed the black riches of the evil sultan. His people got some peanut butter in return, and that was very fair, thought the Empires.

And then the great empire beyond the sea looked at the old world again, and searched with candle and light for a new ruler to mark as evil, and a new country to force into submission. And the High Council of Wise Men and its followers, many of them who had not yet accepted democracy, could not do anything about it.




I am against this war, and every other war that the US has fought on loose grounds and for poor reasons except its own interests. You might tell me that the US those this for the best of the world, to promote democracy, wealth and life quality for opressed people around the world, but i do not believe that for a minute and never will. History proves otherwise, voices from times past as well as the present cry out and tell stories that makes the US itself, in all its power and might, join the opressors. And so it will probably continue to be for a long, long time on this blue-green little sphere amongst the stars.

- Ymir, who still believes in humanity

[The Duchess of Zeon]

As for Saudi Arabia? Marina suggested 2004. I say we need to wait until at least 2008.

I meant sometime during a Bush second term by that, which would be the earliest timeframe. I prefer a ten year delay from the Iraq war at least, though. By that time secular democratic governments should be firmly established in both Iraq and Iran, the first by force and the second by internal popular process.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

You might tell me that the US those this for the best of the world, to promote democracy, wealth and life quality for opressed people around the world, but i do not believe that for a minute and never will. History proves otherwise, voices from times past as well as the present cry out and tell stories that makes the US itself, in all its power and might, join the opressors.

I'm going to reply to this point because it might be the only valid one. At least when I was quoting Dante I was responding to the personal opinions of someone who had written a chant-article; you're trying to use a story to counter serious argues.

Here we go:

When we take control of a country, rule it by fiat, and kill as many people in it as were slaughtered in the Belgian Congo, then you can say the USA is morally equal to Europe. Good day.

[fgalkin]

Years passed, and the High Councile of Wise Men watched closely, for they had decided that the evil sultan shouldn't be allowed to search out new weapons he could use to wage war anew. Alas, eventually a young but powerful empire beyond the sea was attacked by four dragons. This awoke their fury, and they ignored the High Council and invaded the land south of Amu-Darja. This was believed to be the dragons homeland, although none could really prove that. They just drove its priest-rulers out anyway, because the Empire and everyone else agreed that they where evil, even though there was no such alignments in this world. And the High Council would not object, because they also thought that the priest-rulers where evil.

- Ymir, who still believes in humanity

Oh, so the Al-quaeda camps in Afghanistan were a fabrication by the Bush administration in order to give the US a reason to invade, overthrow the democratically elected government and start building an oil pipeline.

Hmm...where have I heard this before?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[RogueIce]

(snip)

The people around the crushed kingdom was also sad, because they did not like the Empires, and did not want them in their part of the world. The Empires claimed that they helped the people opressed by the evil sultan, but even this people would not welcome the Empires, especially not after they had invaded their country, even though they drove the evil sultan out. So almost no one had wanted this to happen, and around the world people was both afraid of what consequences this would have, and angry at the ignorant Empires. But the Empires did not care, sang their national anthems and sat down and enjoyed the black riches of the evil sultan. His people got some peanut butter in return, and that was very fair, thought the Empires.

And then the great empire beyond the sea looked at the old world again, and searched with candle and light for a new ruler to mark as evil, and a new country to force into submission. And the High Council of Wise Men and its followers, many of them who had not yet accepted democracy, could not do anything about it.

And the evidence of all this is...?

I am against this war, and every other war that the US has fought on loose grounds and for poor reasons except its own interests. You might tell me that the US those this for the best of the world, to promote democracy, wealth and life quality for opressed people around the world, but i do not believe that for a minute and never will. History proves otherwise, voices from times past as well as the present cry out and tell stories that makes the US itself, in all its power and might, join the opressors. And so it will probably continue to be for a long, long time on this blue-green little sphere amongst the stars.

The US has joined the opressors? Or, so we have kept all the countries we have ever invaded and now have our own little empire, right? Well, time to go to Japan, the 51st US state, or maybe Germany, number 53?

- Ymir, who still believes in humanity

And I'm happy for you that you do.

When we take control of a country, rule it by fiat, and kill as many people in it as were slaughtered in the Belgian Congo, then you can say the USA is morally equal to Europe. Good day.

Popped in there when I was making this...basically what I said, only better.

[Axis Kast]

Her job doesn't have much association with Ashcroft's - Justice and the NSA are rather different realms. Ashcroft isn't likely to last beyond the 2004 election, anyway.

They are too connected within the public mind. You and I will make distinctions; others will not. She’s been viciously lampooned and horribly defaced as a result of the anti-war movement and overall criticism of the Bush White House. I don’t give her much chance – especially on her own.

Besides, there's already been rumors that Rice will run for governor of California against Davis next time. That may take her out of the running for 2008, one grants - Though some interesting permutations could result.

So she might run for governor of California. What made you so sure a moment ago that she’d try for President?

And neither Cheney nor Rumsfeld have the distrust that is typified in the left-wing media among average individuals. Cheney's health, though, likely precludes him from the Presidency. I would suspect that Rumsfeld is just too weird to be President, OTOH, though. A guy who talks Pentagonese to reporters cannot survive the political process.

Rumsfeld is worse than Condi. As you’ve said, he’s too obtuse. That most people don’t separate him from Ashcroft is even worse. The man has no hope for the Oval Office. He might stay on to advise Jeb or Powell; nobody else will take him.

Cheney’s out not only because of his health but also because he’s been labeled as sinister. His intelligence and ability are being used against him now. He’s become the embodiment of all that is hated in the Bush agenda – the man solely responsible for orchestrating the greatest fob-off of the European continent since the War of 1812 and the Great Jacksonian Middle Finger Incident.

[meNNis]

Perhaps it was a bit Ad Hominem. Apologies, I wasn't in the best mood perhaps. However, I'd like to see you try and explain how I was in the least bit wimpy

Ah yes, and by the way, you still have not backed up your earlier statement

And Dalton, Flaming is my perogative. Especially in this forum, I would think.

[Axis Kast]

Years passed, and the High Councile of Wise Men watched closely, for they had decided that the evil sultan shouldn't be allowed to search out new weapons he could use to wage war anew. Alas, eventually a young but powerful empire beyond the sea was attacked by four dragons. This awoke their fury, and they ignored the High Council and invaded the land south of Amu-Darja. This was believed to be the dragons homeland, although none could really prove that. They just drove its priest-rulers out anyway, because the Empire and everyone else agreed that they where evil, even though there was no such alignments in this world. And the High Council would not object, because they also thought that the priest-rulers where evil.

Where did you miss the part where we delivered the Taliban an ultimatum and suggested that if only they’d disown and offer up al-Qaeda they could escape regimé-change? Where did you miss the part where they told us to go screw ourselves and brought upon themselves the legitimate might of the international community for having harbored, aided, and abetted terrorist actions resulting in the deaths of over three thousand innocent people? No offense, but this whole story sounds quite a lot like what Bin Laden’s followers must tell their children every night. And I mean that honestly without making a judgement on you personally. It’s really very disturbing that you think in these terms.

Later on the kingdom of the evil sultan became the subject on everyones tongue again, because the Empire and a much older but lesser empire decided that the sultan had weapons he was not allowed to have. They couldn't prove this either, but again, everyone decided that the sultan was evil and should be killed. But then something happened. The High Council of Wise Men did not want the two empires to wage war, because they wanted to create a better world for future generations, a world were war was the last resort, and no one had a right to judge anyone else and thus attack them. The High Council wanted to promote a system called 'Democracy' with methods that that system encouraged, for the High Council did very much believe in this democracy idea. The two empires, on the other hand, diden't care much. They also believed in democracy, but they wanted to force it upon everyone everywhere with their military might, thus causing suffering to people, and the High Council could not accept that. They wanted people to develop democracy on their own, so that none should be forced to depend on another. So when the High Council gathered to vote about attacking the evil sultans kingdom, almost everyone voted against. They did not want war in their world.

Oh, Iraq has weapons all right. Despite the fact that Blix was confident he could fully disarm Iraq on his own, you must now forget that he was until just prior to last week still finding illegal materials that were prohibited since 1991. Whether or not the French tried to play up his ability to seek disarmament on his own without force is moot in this case. We have proof that Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. It was given us by UNMOVIC. There was merely disagreement over how to deal with that situation.

The “High Council” has its own best interests in mind. It wishes, for the most part, to test and object this “new and all-powerful empire” in order to see if it can somehow be corralled or made less headstrong. Worse, it has no truly devastating experience with the dragons you speak of nor does the evil Sultan seek to threaten their interests. No. Indeed, he serves them by remaining in power.

The High Council’s notions of universal democracy are hardly threatened. Why? Because after the evil Sultan is gone, we’ll be that much closer to peace. After him, there really isn’t anybody else to use force against per se.

[Ymir]

When we take control of a country, rule it by fiat, and kill as many people in it as were slaughtered in the Belgian Congo, then you can say the USA is morally equal to Europe. Good day.

Europe did that many years ago. The US does it today. I think that is a rather big difference. And we haven't used God as an excuse since the 1800s.

My little story was not meant to state cold facts, it was meant to explain my opinion. That few people here cares about either of them has become pretty clear to me now. I have myself to blame, discussing US-imperialism with americans, but i thought there was some different opinions and international solidarity also in America.

- Ymir, Afurore Normannorum libera nos, Domine!

[Joe]

When we take control of a country, rule it by fiat, and kill as many people in it as were slaughtered in the Belgian Congo, then you can say the USA is morally equal to Europe. Good day.

Europe did that many years ago. The US does it today. I think that is a rather big difference. And we haven't used God as an excuse since the 1800s.

My little story was not meant to state cold facts, it was meant to explain my opinion. That few people here cares about either of them has become pretty clear to me now. I have myself to blame, discussing US-imperialism with americans, but i thought there was some different opinions and international solidarity also in America.

- Ymir, Afurore Normannorum libera nos, Domine!

Can you give us a country?

[meNNis]

Can you give us a country?