Shield Issue

[Abacus]

Seeing as how I don't wish to trouble fractal's thread any further, I'll post this here.

"Every blueprint released by Star Wars resource books has always had those "globes" on the bridge noted as "deflector shield generators". I'm still wondering why that is such a contentious issue to some. The sensors are usually the dishes, such as we see on the Millennium Falcon and the Tantive IV."

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Why is it so hard for people to accept that the deflector shield generators are those globes? I know a lot of people point towards the Battle of Endor for examples, especially the Executor scene. So, let me go through what I think using the same example:

(1) The Executor's bridge deflector shield was recharging, momentarily lost, allowing the fighters to get in close and directly target them (much as is the mechanic in the game Star Wars: Empire at War; when a ship's shields are down and you can target their shield generator to destroy it before it re-generates the shield).

(2) The fact that it is a globe makes sense for a shield generator, as it assumes that the shield will form to the shape best fitted from the projector in question. If I want a shield generator to protect my ship within a shielded bubble, then a globe is the perfect thing.


Other thoughts?

[The Romulan Republic]

I agree that the most sensible explanation is them being deflector generators (though their's really only Endor, in the films, to base that on).

However, I would point out that Star Wars shields typically don't form a bubble, the way most Trek shields for example do. They're more hull-huggers.

[SpottedKitty]

There's also the question of whether there's a shield gap directly below the ship, where the shield generator attaches to the hull. Or... is that why all the Star Destroyers we've seen (I think) have two globes?

[Abacus]

There's also the question of whether there's a shield gap directly below the ship, where the shield generator attaches to the hull. Or... is that why all the Star Destroyers we've seen (I think) have two globes?

I've always thought that each projector was for a separate side of the ship. There are mentions in Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy of "starboard shields" failing, and ships turning to the opposite side, or using enemy ships as a would-be shield until their shields are back online.

[Simon_Jester]

(2) The fact that it is a globe makes sense for a shield generator, as it assumes that the shield will form to the shape best fitted from the projector in question. If I want a shield generator to protect my ship within a shielded bubble, then a globe is the perfect thing.

As noted, Star Wars ship shields don't form bubbles the way Trek shields do. When a Trek ship gets shot at you can TELL the enemy fire is striking an ellipsoidal bubble a long distance from the hull. Not in Star Wars, as a rule.

Also, if the shield generators are globes because they're designed to project a spherical bubble around the ship, why are they so far off-center hanging "up there" at the top of the superstructure? Wouldn't that put the shield bubble itself off-center and result in you shielding a lot of unnecessary volume?

[Crazedwraith]

There's also the question of whether there's a shield gap directly below the ship, where the shield generator attaches to the hull. Or... is that why all the Star Destroyers we've seen (I think) have two globes?

I've always thought that each projector was for a separate side of the ship. There are mentions in Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy of "starboard shields" failing, and ships turning to the opposite side, or using enemy ships as a would-be shield until their shields are back online.

Except that the X-Wing novels also specify that they have fore, aft, dorsal, ventral shields as well. So you'd need six globes for that to be true.

[Abacus]

Except that the X-Wing novels also specify that they have fore, aft, dorsal, ventral shields as well. So you'd need six globes for that to be true.

Well, firstly "Thrawn Series" > "X-Wing series.


Second, it's quite possible that the globes themselves have various parts to them that make for that fore, aft, dorsal, and ventral shields. They're that shape for a reason, ie geodesic domes, the definition of which is:

A geodesic dome is a hemispherical thin-shell structure (lattice-shell) based on a network of geodesics (great circles) on the surface of a sphere or a hemisphere. The geodesics intersect to form triangular elements, which have local, triangular rigidity, and so distribute the structural stress throughout the geodesic sphere.

I think that the design and the fact that their shield generators isn't an accident. If each of those small shapes on the surface of the shield generators is part of a shield-network that, when all connected and working presents a "single shield" it looks like there's one primary shield. In fact, it's showing how there are shields projectors, facets of the whole.

That would fit with both ideas, imho.

[Crazedwraith]

Except that the X-Wing novels also specify that they have fore, aft, dorsal, ventral shields as well. So you'd need six globes for that to be true.

Well, firstly "Thrawn Series" > "X-Wing series.


Second, it's quite possible that the globes themselves have various parts to them that make for that fore, aft, dorsal, and ventral shields. They're that shape for a reason, ie geodesic domes, the definition of which is:

A geodesic dome is a hemispherical thin-shell structure (lattice-shell) based on a network of geodesics (great circles) on the surface of a sphere or a hemisphere. The geodesics intersect to form triangular elements, which have local, triangular rigidity, and so distribute the structural stress throughout the geodesic sphere.

I think that the design and the fact that their shield generators isn't an accident. If each of those small shapes on the surface of the shield generators is part of a shield-network that, when all connected and working presents a "single shield" it looks like there's one primary shield. In fact, it's showing how there are shields projectors, facets of the whole.

That would fit with both ideas, imho.

You're the one that claimed the two generators were for left and right shields.

TTT > X-Wing possibly in subjective quality. Not in level of canoncity/officiality. (Which is zero for both at the moment)

You know what else a geodesic dome is good for? Sensors. I'm pretty sure they were salvaged from actual real life model designs. The death star model was covered with stuff from off the shelve battleship kits iirc.

One other problem with the theory Why does no other design have similar outboard designs for their shields? They don't. What do me most often see hanging off canon and Eu designs? the Falcon. Corvettes. Dreadnoughts. Comm arrays and sensors arrays.

[eMeM]

Shield generators in Rebels:

[Abacus]

Yup, that's the other support we have for this. ^

[Darth Tanner]

I think its doubtless that the domes must be part of the shield generator system despite it likely being the intention originally they would be sensor systems. There are simply too many sources that expressley call them shield generators, including Rebels.

I would however be suprised if they are the only part of the shield system... there likely are significnat internal elements to the shield system that might do the lions work of protecting the body of the ship and perhaps the domes protect the bridge tower.

As an aside we only see three shield generators in cannon, the Death Star shield which is a giant dish, the mobile shield generators that look just like Star Destroyer globes in Rebels and the mini Hoth generator shield again in Rebels. I guess we also see the Gungan shield dome things that are like giant drums but they seem to operate on quite a different technology.

The fact most ships don't have external or visible shield system would imply even if the shield domes are part of the shield system they are not a vital part, maybe they offer an advantage to Star Destroyers by their design but also a vulnerability.

[Imperial528]

I always liked the compromise that the domes themselves are sensor arrays mounted on top of the bridge shield projectors, which means that fire on the shield projectors would necessitate some damage to the domes.

I don't believe that anything in the film depicts the domes to specifically be shield generators. I always took the damaged state of them (I.e on Executor's bridge) as an indicator that the rebel fleet had successfully battered down the shields to the point where the bridge was taking hits.

[Galvatron]

IIRC, to satisfy both schools of thought, it was decided that local shield projector vanes were mounted on the sensor globes.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sensor_globe

[fractalsponge1]

I remember what Galvatron posted - I think it started as one of the essential locations cross sections? It seemed like a fairly elegant solution to me.

The globes cannot be primary shield emitters - maybe they are for the bridge, but it is not likely for the whole ship:
1) Geometry: There are never any ventral globes. For hull hugging shields, the geometrical unlikelihood of just two dorsal projectors being sufficient becomes impossibly unlikely for the Executor, which has 6 tightly clustered globes around the bridge tower, and ONLY the bridge tower. Also why would you cluster your shield generators on the tower?
2) Scaling: How does a Star Dreadnought like Executor (>100x ISD volume, and thus presumably >100x ISD power and shielding) make do with only 3x the shield projector systems? You can't possibly scale the power output 30x within a subsystem the same size and configuration.
3) Order of effects: How do you hit the shield generator without dropping the shields? Even then destroying the globes doesn't actually drop the shields. in ROTJ why is there bridge shield loss when ONE globe get destroyed? The other 5 are intact.
4) Other designs: Why do you not see these as primary shield generator systems in other (movie canon) KDY products like Acclamator and Venator?
5) Structural concerns: Why anchor systems that need to handle massive momentum transfer to superstructure, rather than strength elements in the hull?

Saying "most sources describe the globes as shield generators" I feel is the logical equivalent to "Executor is 8km 12.8km because all the sources say so." The Endor rationalization, where a full fleet bombardment knocks down some of the shields allowing for pinpoint attacks that destroys one globe, can just as easily be correlation, not causation; the globes are destroyed because the bridge shields are down, not that the destruction of the globe dropped the shields.

If we use the "globes" have local emitters (maybe sometimes) explanation, then that sidesteps most of the problems.

[Simon_Jester]

I remember what Galvatron posted - I think it started as one of the essential locations cross sections? It seemed like a fairly elegant solution to me.

The globes cannot be primary shield emitters - maybe they are for the bridge, but it is not likely for the whole ship:
1) Geometry: There are never any ventral globes. For hull hugging shields, the geometrical unlikelihood of just two dorsal projectors being sufficient becomes impossibly unlikely for the Executor, which has 6 tightly clustered globes around the bridge tower, and ONLY the bridge tower. Also why would you cluster your shield generators on the tower?

To be fair, this, the underlined question has a possible answer built into it:

"Because the bridge tower incorporates command and control functions, and the politicized Imperial doctrine considers protecting the (dangerously overcentralized) command and control system the most important aspect of operating a warship, even more so than the engines, guns, and reactor bulb."

That said, I agree with the rest of your conclusions and think you are right that the globes cannot possibly be the ship's only primary shield generators. But this is for engineering reasons (shielded volume would be inadequate if those are local generators, and inefficiently used if they're global generators). I can totally imagine the Empire parking its ship's bridge and shield generators in exactly the same place, in much the same way that we sometimes criticize Star Trek ships for their exposed bridge modules.

[Adam Reynolds]

Unfortunately the EU both old and new is heavily populated with that brain bug. Though oddly Rogue One has a scene in which one of those domes is destroyed early in the battle and there is no indication that it drops the SD's shields. We also clearly see a case in which fighters attack after a hole is opened by the capital ships.

Saying "most sources describe the globes as shield generators" I feel is the logical equivalent to "Executor is 8km 12.8km because all the sources say so." The Endor rationalization, where a full fleet bombardment knocks down some of the shields allowing for pinpoint attacks that destroys one globe, can just as easily be correlation, not causation; the globes are destroyed because the bridge shields are down, not that the destruction of the globe dropped the shields.

That is also problematic, in that the Rebel fleet can successfully take down a ship that should be much more powerful than their offensive abilities based on reactor output. While it was at least partially a cheap shot due to fighter attacks,

[fractalsponge1]

That is also problematic, in that the Rebel fleet can successfully take down a ship that should be much more powerful than their offensive abilities based on reactor output.

I don't think it's that problematic. Executor wasn't seriously shooting back, was at point blank range, and was facing several star cruiser and several dozen destroyer sized ships. That seems reasonable to me to break a local shield zone. If the DS2 weren't present to be crashed into, shielding and control would probably have been regained eventually.

[Anacronian]

In the newly released STAR WARS complete locations there is a two-page cutaway of the Executor's bridge and in there, the domes are labeled as housing "Hyperwave transceiver coils and Long range scanners that feed targeting information to the ship's weapon system"

There is also a text reading "...At Endor, pounded mercilessly by the capitol ships of the Rebel Alliance flotilla, the ship's shields fail. At that moment, the rebels are able to strafe the command tower.."

[Lord Revan]

if you look carefully during ROTJ it seems the first few shots on the domes are blocked by the shields (there no shield effect but there's no "hit" effect either the domes just seem to swallow the shots) with the third blast getting thru and taking out the domes, what does this means for the function of the domes I dunno though at least it says they were shielded rather then being unshield exploit that makes the DS1 exhaust port seem impossibly well protected by comparison

[FedRebel]

Seeing as how I don't wish to trouble fractal's thread any further, I'll post this here.

"Every blueprint released by Star Wars resource books has always had those "globes" on the bridge noted as "deflector shield generators". I'm still wondering why that is such a contentious issue to some. The sensors are usually the dishes, such as we see on the Millennium Falcon and the Tantive IV."

Why is it so hard for people to accept that the deflector shield generators are those globes?

The "Globes" were inspired by the RADAR domes on modern naval Destroyers, They were applied to the Devastator Model in 1977 to evoke that aesthetic.

Until ROTJ the overall consensus was that the "globes" were sensor domes, then We get the Executor scene at Endor....

I know a lot of people point towards the Battle of Endor for examples, especially the Executor scene. So, let me go through what I think using the same example:

(1) The Executor's bridge deflector shield was recharging, momentarily lost, allowing the fighters to get in close and directly target them (much as is the mechanic in the game Star Wars: Empire at War; when a ship's shields are down and you can target their shield generator to destroy it before it re-generates the shield).

I'm thinking that the Rebel fleet (per Ackbar's onscreen command) was blasting the crap out of the Executor, the bridge is a landmark so the fleet focused fire there. The dissipation peak was breached and the Bridge sector shields were lost. The "globe" was a sensor, the fighters took it out so it couldn't give the gunners targeting data, obstensively to make it harder for the Executor to target the fleet.

(2) The fact that it is a globe makes sense for a shield generator, as it assumes that the shield will form to the shape best fitted from the projector in question. If I want a shield generator to protect my ship within a shielded bubble, then a globe is the perfect thing.

problem with the logic is placement.

1: the Command Tower is the only portion where protruding globes are mounted
2: On the Executor they are proportionally microscopic, and unable to provide much effective coverage
3: The whole "Shield globe" shtick is low level Legends (Disney burned those books) and a game Mechanic.

Unless New canon certifies the "shield globe", logical fallback is the 1977 Devastator model notes and real world applications, the design and placement is Identical to Naval RADAR Domes (unless the US Navy has deflector shields on it's surface fleet.)

[Crazedwraith]

Until ROTJ the overall consensus was that the "globes" were sensor domes, then We get the Executor scene at Endor....

Say what? There was consensus about what the globes were pre-RotJ? Like by who and how, and how do you know?

[Abacus]

What Crazedwraith said. Whaaaaa?

[Elheru Aran]

Until ROTJ the overall consensus was that the "globes" were sensor domes, then We get the Executor scene at Endor....

Say what? There was consensus about what the globes were pre-RotJ? Like by who and how, and how do you know?

No kidding, because I'm pretty sure there was nearly zero EU material discussing this kind of thing in depth. The only thing I can think of are WEG games material, and those didn't come out until the late eighties max IMO, more likely early 90s. There were the Marvel comics, but I don't think they ever said squat about the globes.

*MAYBE* there was some toy packaging that detailed a Star Destroyer, but I doubt it... toy packaging is pretty low canon even by Legendaries standards.

[fractalsponge1]

The most recent material had them as sensor globes (complete locations, I think one of the recent essential guides) with integrated local shield emitters.

This is also separate from all the other logical reasons why they probably aren't main shield nodes at least.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Random thought; why do people think they must be shield generators/projectors? I know, because that officer says "We've lost our bridge deflector shields" after a globe is destroyed. But only one globe is destroyed, not both, so unless port and starboard globes covered different areas, the bridge shields should have some redundancy to them.