How would the Mirrorverse handle the Borg/Dominion/etc?

[TithonusSyndrome]

Full disclosure: I haven't watched all of DS9, much less the episodes dealing with the Mirrorverse.

A common misconception about the Mirrorverse is that every power and person within it is the moral opposite of their real-life counterpart, but that's cartoonish even by Trek standards; the Mirrorverse is simply a "mirror reflection" when observed principally from the perspective of Federation characters. The "moral opposite" theme, based on everything I've read and seen, doesn't hold outside of the Federation. It's not Bizarro World from DC Comics, it's a Trekverse shaped by the excessive militarism of humanity and the aftermath of its fallout, ie, the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance which came about in response to said aggression. It therefore doesn't hold, as thematically tempting as it may feel, to conclude that the Borg are all techno-Kropotkinites, or that the Dominion never bothered breaking up their lovefest to engineer the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar in the Mirrorverse. They're probably more or less as they appear in Trekverse Prime.

The question then becomes, if there's been this much back-and-forth bloodshed between the powers of the Alpha Quadrant in the Mirrorverse, would either the Terrans or the KCA (or Romulans, I suppose) be in any condition to fend off Borg incursions or Dominion conquest? For that matter, can you conceive of any reason as to why the Borg or Dominion would be in any way meaningfully different even if they're not cartoon mirror images of their prime selves, ie, some possible variation in their history or development affected by Terran aggression?

HARDMODE: Your favorite Voyager powers, ie, Vaadwuar, Voth, Hirogen, 8472, etc, or others like the Breen.

[FaxModem1]

Well, in the Mirror Universe novels, at least, the Borg is ruled by a King instead of a Queen, and that's about the only sizable difference between the two universes regarding the Borg. Mirror Picard defeats them single-handedly using a rather clever trick. I recommend reading the first Mirror Universe compilation novel to see what he does.

[Prometheus Unbound]

If we go just by the TV show (i.e. no novels / beta canon) I can't see the Mirror Universe surviving. Whether it's the Terran Empire (who were defeated 50-60 years before TNG - they wouldn't have the firepower or tech - and if it's the Klingon / Cardassian Alliance, they don't have the technical capabilities to go up against The Borg. They're all idiots. Worf, the leader of the Alliance, couldn't take down a Maquis fighter with a 10x the size Neigh'Vah for goodness' sake. Garek, his second in command is also an idiot who is easily manipulated. Kira isn't an Alliance leader - although she herself, again, an idiot.

The Terran Empire doesn't have the tech and the KCA does but doesn't know how to use it.


They will die. There's something be said for patience, investigation and science when it comes to The Borg.

[Lord Revan]

the thing about the Mirror Universe seems that pretty much everyone is stupid in a petty self-destructive way to point that reason any major civilization exist in the Mirror verse is writer's fiat as logically they all should have collapsed ages ago.

I could see the mirror borg being 1000 times more petty and impatient then the VOY Borg were at their worst. In essense if you want to see what mirror verse equilevant of *insert race here* is take the most unconstructive, petty or otherwise idiotic parts of that race/culture then turn those up to 11 while downplaying their constructive or intelligent traits as much as possible. It's not just that everyone is evil they're also really, really stupid.

[Prometheus Unbound]

They wouldn't care about efficiency and they don't want to bring everyone up to perfection - they want to destroy all imperfections (everything - like Species 8472 did).

But can you imagine a more petty borg queen than the one in Dark Frontier, Unimatrix Zero and End Game?

Maybe the Alternate Universe would survive - the Borg would end up blowing up their own navy because they found a software bug.

Or this Queen really is vein and puts on makeup and a wig and dances around like Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs or something whilst dressed as Seven of Nine - all the while assimilating Blonde women - I mean, she did put drone heads on pikes in her throne room and was yelling at them, whilst doing the 24th century equivalent of stalking Seven on Facebook for years. Want to dial that up to 11 and remove 50% of the sanity? Be my guest.

[FedRebel]

[quote="TithonusSyndrome"
The question then becomes, if there's been this much back-and-forth bloodshed between the powers of the Alpha Quadrant in the Mirrorverse, would either the Terrans or the KCA (or Romulans, I suppose) be in any condition to fend off Borg incursions or Dominion conquest? [/quote]

Borg, none of the above.

The KCA is too weak, conquest and subjugation of humanity is the only bond. Each element is out for their personal self interest. Once the Rebellion captured the Regent, the whole house of cards collapsed.

The Terran Rebellion is too small, and the Romulans are nothing special
_____________________________________

The Dominion, The Terrans by way of "membership"

On the surface it's a good deal (basically the same marketing spiel they gave Dukat), The Terran Empire becomes the face for the Dominion in the Alpha Quadrant. Of course it's a "serve in Heaven" relationship.

The Dominion could curbstomp the KCA given it's fagility, the Romulans won't hold out on their own. The Terrans make good pawns, they're a homogeneous group whom have aspirations of restoring their lost Empire (like the Cardassians v. Maquis/Klingons.)

[Shroom Man 777]

she did put drone heads on pikes in her throne room and was yelling at them

What? Why... but why?!

[Tribble]

she did put drone heads on pikes in her throne room and was yelling at them

What? Why... but why?!

Answer: In "Unimatrix Zero" Some Borg were dreaming, and the Queen didn't like that. Not. One. Bit. Not only did she do the above IIRC she went so far as to start blowing up her own ships to stop it, even if there was only 1 /100,000 drones on the ship that was capable of doing so. Instead of, you know, just killing the drone that was the problem. It took Janeway of all people to point out the rather obvious flaw to the Queen's plans.

I'd recommend watching SF Debris' review just to get the sense of just how ridiculous the episode is:
http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/v946.php

IMO the Borg would kind of follow a reverse history in the Mirror-Universe - start off really incompetent, but gradually get better as the series goes on... and have Chuck's Janeway as Queen.

And Mirror-Universe Dominion... would actually be more or less the Federation seeing as they were meant to be an anti-federation in DS9. They'd be the good guys in this scenario IMO, though they'll still be stupid and incompetent. Everyone is stupid and incompetent in the Mirror Universe.

[Prometheus Unbound]

she did put drone heads on pikes in her throne room and was yelling at them

What? Why... but why?!

As Tribble said.

They had some sort of software defect or something and when they were regenerating, they were unlinked from the Collective, sharing a dream like sub-collective that The Borg couldn't penetrate.

The Queen is finding the drones 1 by 1 and "interrogating them" in her chamber. She does this by disconnecting them from the Hive and then screaming at them. When the drone (predictably) fails to respond, she decapitates them and puts their heads on spikes as a warning to the next one, whilst yelling and pacing around the room and talking to herself.


Or you know, she gets Jealous because picard doesn't love her and tries to spur him with Data, her new, younger BETTER locutus who drives a dodge.


It's pathetic.

And that's normal queen. Imagine the mirror one.

[Shroom Man 777]

That's just shitty writing...

There could be so many ways for them to have done the Queen/personification of the Collective.

[Q99]

I'd love it if the mirror-borg just peacefully assimilated by evangalizing and getting volunteers.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I'd love it if the mirror-borg just peacefully assimilated by evangalizing and getting volunteers.

Lol!

Like a Culture Evangelising Swarm?

[Juubi Karakuchi]

We actually get a look at the Mirrorverse Dominion in David Mack's 'Section 31: Disavowed'.
Spoiler

The Dominion is pretty much like its Prime Universe self, except that they're good guys (after a fashion). Their conflict with the Galactic Commonwealth, over their wish to extradite the Prime Universe Julian Bashir for killing Odo (DS9 - 'Crossover'), is as much about the need to stand up for their beliefs as it is to get justice for Odo. The Female Founder claims that a civilization willing to betray its principles, even in the face of certain annihilation, does not deserve to live. Fortunately, even Founders are subject to the rule of law, so Bashir is let off after it is proven that he killed Odo in self-defence.

The only minor differences mentioned are that Jem-Hadar are bigger and stronger, and Vorta have stronger psychic powers; possibly having Eris' telekinesis as standard.

The GC by this point makes use of 'jaunt' ships, with Wormhole drives 'capable of making instantaneous jumps across almost any distance within the galaxy, and across vast reaches of the void outside it' (Section 31: Disavowed). They also, through Memory Omega, have access to Genesis Devices, and Saavik claims that they have more powerful weapons (while trying to threaten the Female Founder). It is implied in 'Rise like Lions' that the Klingons use Trilithium weapons (a la Generations) to keep the GC deterred.

[Prometheus Unbound]

We actually get a look at the Mirrorverse Dominion in David Mack's 'Section 31: Disavowed'.
Spoiler

The Dominion is pretty much like its Prime Universe self, except that they're good guys (after a fashion). Their conflict with the Galactic Commonwealth, over their wish to extradite the Prime Universe Julian Bashir for killing Odo (DS9 - 'Crossover'), is as much about the need to stand up for their beliefs as it is to get justice for Odo. The Female Founder claims that a civilization willing to betray its principles, even in the face of certain annihilation, does not deserve to live. Fortunately, even Founders are subject to the rule of law, so Bashir is let off after it is proven that he killed Odo in self-defence.

The only minor differences mentioned are that Jem-Hadar are bigger and stronger, and Vorta have stronger psychic powers; possibly having Eris' telekinesis as standard.

The GC by this point makes use of 'jaunt' ships, with Wormhole drives 'capable of making instantaneous jumps across almost any distance within the galaxy, and across vast reaches of the void outside it' (Section 31: Disavowed). They also, through Memory Omega, have access to Genesis Devices, and Saavik claims that they have more powerful weapons (while trying to threaten the Female Founder). It is implied in 'Rise like Lions' that the Klingons use Trilithium weapons (a la Generations) to keep the GC deterred.

Sounds like a stable galaxy ><

[Tribble]

I'd love it if the mirror-borg just peacefully assimilated by evangalizing and getting volunteers.

Lol!

Like a Culture Evangelising Swarm?

This is where the Borg's whole drive to assimilate things via force starts to fall flat. If their main goal is to add technological / biological knowledge to part of their Collective, 99/100 times the easiest and most efficient way to do that is to simply ask for some volunteers and agreeing to a technological / biological exchange. The Borg have tech that's way ahead of most other civilizations so trade agreements should have been relatively easy for them. Their insistence on immediately attacking pretty much everyone that interests them is illogical and at odds with their long term goals: what about all the potential knowledge and biological distinctiveness that's being lost as they are going around wrecking the place?

At least in "Q-Who" their motives to attack other species made a bit more sense - if your technology is useful to them, they viewed it as a bunch of resources that can be consumed. The fact that you will probably die in the process of their strip mining meant nothing to them.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I'd love it if the mirror-borg just peacefully assimilated by evangalizing and getting volunteers.

Lol!

Like a Culture Evangelising Swarm?

This is where the Borg's whole drive to assimilate things via force starts to fall flat. If their main goal is to add technological / biological knowledge to part of their Collective, 99/100 times the easiest and most efficient way to do that is to simply ask for some volunteers and agreeing to a technological / biological exchange. The Borg have tech that's way ahead of most other civilizations so trade agreements should have been relatively easy for them. Their insistence on immediately attacking pretty much everyone that interests them is illogical and at odds with their long term goals: what about all the potential knowledge and biological distinctiveness that's being lost as they are going around wrecking the place?

At least in "Q-Who" their motives to attack other species made a bit more sense - if your technology is useful to them, they viewed it as a bunch of resources that can be consumed. The fact that you will probably die in the process of their strip mining meant nothing to them.

Trade between two parties is usually when there's not massive power disparity between them or the distances involved are so great that it's easier to do it peacefully. For the Borg, they don't care about an "economy" or "relations" and they have the biggest, toughest, fastest ships around. Why would they waste time talking when they can just take what they want? It was only really the Federation (other than 8472) who have ever successfully fought them off. Their tactic seems to work just fine 99.9% of the other times.

You gonna convince an entire race of potentially billions to all be assimilated with a glad heart? Good luck lol.

[Tribble]

Trade between two parties is usually when there's not massive power disparity between them or the distances involved are so great that it's easier to do it peacefully. For the Borg, they don't care about an "economy" or "relations" and they have the biggest, toughest, fastest ships around. Why would they waste time talking when they can just take what they want? It was only really the Federation (other than 8472) who have ever successfully fought them off. Their tactic seems to work just fine 99.9% of the other times.

You gonna convince an entire race of potentially billions to all be assimilated with a glad heart? Good luck lol.

My point is that if gaining technological and biological knowledge is their primary motivation, they have no need to assimilate a species permanently.

Were it not for their reputation and attitude knowledge exchanges would be even easier for them than fighting: "We'll give you some tech if some of your top engineers / scientists / doctors etc volunteer to be temporarily assimilated so we can gain their knowledge and experiences, then after we gain their knowledge and experiences they can leave if they want. And if some of your people want to join the Collective permanently they are more than welcome."

In fact, permanently assimilating a species is harmful to their long term goals as that species uniqueness, drives and ambitions are permanently subsumed to the Collective's needs. Who knows what kind of original technological and biological achievements that species could have made if the Borg had simply exchanged knowledge rather than force everyone to be part of the Collective?

[Prometheus Unbound]

"Who knows what kind of original technological and biological achievements that species could have made if the Borg had simply exchanged knowledge rather than force everyone to be part of the Collective?"

Presumably the Borg make them in their place :S

[TithonusSyndrome]

That's just shitty writing...

There could be so many ways for them to have done the Queen/personification of the Collective.

Thematically this approach might make sense if we explain it as a depiction of the tendency among autocratic movements or polities to preach and enforce strict codes of stoic conduct on their subjects, but indulge themselves in lavish Epicureanism in private, ie, the harems and wild parties of the Tibetan llama class, or the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, or the Borgias, or the Taliban, etc, etc, and on it goes.

Was this the writers' intention? Maybe. Was this theme conveyed properly? Not in the slightest, if it was in fact the whole idea.

We actually get a look at the Mirrorverse Dominion in David Mack's 'Section 31: Disavowed'.
>snip for length<

Honestly, I think the best thing you could ever do with the Dominion in the Mirrorverse if you had the creative opportunity is to not have a Dominion in the first place. I'd make it so that the Founders never formed the Dominion at all, never engineered the Horta or the Jem'hadar, and are essentially still having a big hippie love-in on their homeworld that would be only one of hundreds or thousands of civilizations in the Gamma Quadrant that they never conquered. If they're ever mentioned or featured, they'd be minor curiosities far from their home wandering around out of flower child idleness, maybe the sort of thing that would make for a good one-off episode of TOS.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Was this the writers' intention?

I don't believe it was their intention for a second.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe the hivemind ended up congealing into a powertripping maniac. Like, if all of humanity was interconnected and roided up with some of the galaxy's most badass gear, the Queen/King would be the emerging Id and would be something like a wailing Donald Trump... or it could be the re-emerging previously cyber-roboto-suppressed Id. Whereas the ego and superego are unpersonified scientific and utilitarian processes that drive the Borg totalitarian hivemind functions... maybe they can likewise re-appear and be symbolized as Borged out Vulcans

Maybe the Mirror Universe Borg are like a cybernetic equivalent of the Demolition Man society, instead of nightmarish Cubes they have Three Seashells patrolling space and "assimilating" societies by drowning them in replicated tickets for bad language.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Maybe the hivemind ended up congealing into a powertripping maniac. Like, if all of humanity was interconnected and roided up with some of the galaxy's most badass gear, the Queen/King would be the emerging Id and would be something like a wailing Donald Trump... or it could be the re-emerging previously cyber-roboto-suppressed Id. Whereas the ego and superego are unpersonified scientific and utilitarian processes that drive the Borg totalitarian hivemind functions... maybe they can likewise re-appear and be symbolized as Borged out Vulcans

Maybe the Mirror Universe Borg are like a cybernetic equivalent of the Demolition Man society, instead of nightmarish Cubes they have Three Seashells patrolling space and "assimilating" societies by drowning them in replicated tickets for bad language.

"We are the Borg. Species 11294, you are fined one credit for violation of the verbal morality statute."

[Shroom Man 777]

"Enhance your calm Species 8472..."

Oh my god.

"What's your Borg-gle?"

YES.

[Sea Skimmer]

That's just shitty writing...

There could be so many ways for them to have done the Queen/personification of the Collective.

Probably, but in some fairness, I mean seriously a Borg Queen would all but have to be completely insane if the thinking patterns are anything at all patterned off mammals as we know them. Her being just plain insane would also explain crap like why they kept sending just one ship to attack Earth.

Just because the Borg are based around computer systems doesn't mean anyone ever got the chance to find a way to 'edit that out' of what can happen with dynamic neural networks. It might have always been that way, and the Borg may not have evolved out of something that was ever well planned, just effective enough to thrive within it's own space context.

As far as the Borg overall, I think the Mirrior Universe Borg would look and be very similar in technology, but actually the mirrior flip would be that they only assimilate the willing (if sometimes only willing because of bad situations, like space refugees) and thus are much less numerous, but now able to act heroically. However they could still have become extremely advanced because of so many genius types who get to be say 100 years old being on random planets, people who fail to find a cure for aging, but know they can 'live on' in no small part by joining the Borg. So the Borg don't get 99% of people, but 99% of people are dumb anyway, and getting just .1% of the smart adds up as you exploit different types of thinking from different species. They can build robots to replace the labor anyway.

As I recall some oif the Delta Quadrant powers were not just more powerful then the Borg ship for ship, but had shuttlecraft scale weapons that could threaten the borg (as we see the Federation got by the end of the show too) and it could become the case that the Borg would gain this kind of technology too by the DS9 timeframe. So they'd be even more powerful in a single ship action, but not have a huge Empire, and in fact basically patrol the galaxy looking for volunteers, but also asskicking anyone who tries to stop them broadcasting propaganda, rather then blindly conquering/fighting/defending in the most ass stupid way possible as they do in canon.

[Shroom Man 777]

I like that, the Borg could be a collective that takes willing volunteers for their interstellar MAD SCIENCE projects - a true deranged laboratory and less of a military superpower kinda thing...

And they could STILL be just as polite as Demolition Man society! Using their supreme SCIENCE and RATIONALITY to decide that three seashells is the SUPERIOR METHOD for their drones to clean up after themselves! Seashells formation are governed by the Fibonacci sequence! Gasp!

My conception of the Borg Queen WOULD be some deranged plural-mind, the collective consciousnesses of the entire hivemind channeled into one being, a hub for the organic minds and the AIs and all that.