Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

[VhenRa]

At Spindle, Terekhov's command used the Apollo control missiles' FTL transmitters to shorten the control loop.

Here, Yau-Pau is using his recon drones' FTL transmitters to get up-to-the-instant targeting data... but that doesn't enable him to control more missiles than he otherwise could. At least, there's no evidence for that and it's never been mentioned throughout the series or any errata by Weber I've yet found, despite the fact that he talks compulsively about such things.

Point of order, at Spindle they didn't use the Apollo control missile's FTL links. The missiles were only using RF links.

[Batman]

I think I came across a bit harsh, and I apologize for that. Yes, Weber curiously never mentioning that increase in fire control capabilities is odd, but the fact remains that it's there. Most likely out of universe explanation? Weber only came up with it after 'Shadows of Saganami'. But in universe the damned increase is there so we have to find explanations for that (or throw up our hands and say 'Who cares? It's fiction, and last I checked that's not what people do around here ), and I happen to think mine are (english majors may want to look away) reasonably reasonable. And given that even olden days missile combat involved multiple salvoes underway at the same time that required either multiple telemetry links per tube or the ability to rotate several missiles through the same link (something we've been able to do for half a century or so) so the difference between the Nasty Kitty and Yau-pau's ships could have been something as simple as them upgrading from MissileMassacreMacro 3.1 to 95.

[Simon_Jester]

At Spindle, Terekhov's command used the Apollo control missiles' FTL transmitters to shorten the control loop.

Here, Yau-Pau is using his recon drones' FTL transmitters to get up-to-the-instant targeting data... but that doesn't enable him to control more missiles than he otherwise could. At least, there's no evidence for that and it's never been mentioned throughout the series or any errata by Weber I've yet found, despite the fact that he talks compulsively about such things.

Point of order, at Spindle they didn't use the Apollo control missile's FTL links. The missiles were only using RF links.

My impression was that Terekhov was using RF downlinks to send data to the missiles, but was taking full advantage of the Apollo control missiles FTL uplinks to get data back.

[SpottedKitty]

... so the difference between the Nasty Kitty and Yau-pau's ships could have been something as simple as them upgrading from MissileMassacreMacro 3.1 to 95.

This suggests the SLN "Fleet 2000" upgrade got them as far as the shiniest, newest version of CP/M.

</computergeekjoke>

[Crazedwraith]

Whatever happened to Ahriman? Isn't there a new HH book by now?

[Q99]

Whatever happened to Ahriman? Isn't there a new HH book by now?

Nope, none in the main line at least.

[Crazedwraith]

Whatever happened to Ahriman? Isn't there a new HH book by now?

Nope, none in the main line at least.

Oh I though the new Saganammi book was a main series one.

[Batman]

There's a new Saganami series one?

[Crazedwraith]

There's a new Saganami series one?

As of November last year. "Shadow Of Victory"

[Simon_Jester]

...Huh. Ahriman hasn't been active on the forum since April of last year, actually- and his last post was in December 2015 unless I'm misreading the search.

[MKSheppard]

Poor Pyun. Poor Sollies.

So where was BuShips, Missile Defense Branch Desk in the Solarian League's Navy during the last what, fifteen years of Honorverse time?

[MKSheppard]

The Solarian battlecruiser crews had never seen, enver imagined, anything like it. Ignorant of the energy budgets the RMN's mini-fusion plants allowed, they simply couldn't conceive of how such powerful jammers could be crammed into such tiny platforms.

So this is basically Imperial Japan suddenly developing an electronics industry many times more advanced than that of the United States circa 1945.

[Batman]

There's a new Saganami series one?

As of November last year. "Shadow Of Victory"

Already in the mail

[SpottedKitty]

The Solarian battlecruiser crews had never seen, enver imagined, anything like it. Ignorant of the energy budgets the RMN's mini-fusion plants allowed, they simply couldn't conceive of how such powerful jammers could be crammed into such tiny platforms.

So this is basically Imperial Japan suddenly developing an electronics industry many times more advanced than that of the United States circa 1945.

IIRC from the last Saganami book I read, there was a scene explaining that the top-level R&D at various Solarian tech companies is probably equivalent to, or even better than, what the Alliance has. None of that has made it into Navy hardware, partly due to politics and NIH syndrome, partly because "nobody asked what our R&D people are playing with". That's their story, and the Mesan moles buried in the military tech industry are sticking to it.

Think back a few books, to the minimal (and mostly cosmetic) improvement present in the "Fleet 2000" capital ship upgrades, and how long it took for them to be actually implemented.

[Dominus Atheos]

The Solarian battlecruiser crews had never seen, enver imagined, anything like it. Ignorant of the energy budgets the RMN's mini-fusion plants allowed, they simply couldn't conceive of how such powerful jammers could be crammed into such tiny platforms.

So this is basically Imperial Japan suddenly developing an electronics industry many times more advanced than that of the United States circa 1945.

More like if America had completely ignored all of WW2, then being really really surprised by jet engines and nuclear power.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think the Solarian League really has a real-world parallel that fits very well. Its been unquestioned top dog for centuries/millenia, correct? Considering the capacity of even real American leaders (or leaders of other countries for that matter) for self-delusion (see Trump), its not remotely hard to believe that if you've been unquestioned master of the world since before every living person's grandparents' grandparents were born, it might be simply impossible for the average person to comprehend that ever changing.

[Q99]

I don't think the Solarian League really has a real-world parallel that fits very well. Its been unquestioned top dog for centuries/millenia, correct? Considering the capacity of even real American leaders (or leaders of other countries for that matter) for self-delusion (see Trump), its not remotely hard to believe that if you've been unquestioned master of the world since before every living person's grandparents' grandparents were born, it might be simply impossible for the average person to comprehend that ever changing.

Right, and not just top dog, but ridiculously top dog. They have an active fleet normally a lot bigger than everyone else combined (that margin has shrunk in the last century or so, but it was still big), plus a mothball fleet several times that. Their ships weren't the spiffiest but... by their standards. For much of that period, they were actually way ahead of everyone else, with peer foes being a relatively recent thing (and at the start-of-series, the electronics and similar in Solarian battlefleet ships still top Haven ones, it's just design doctrine wise that they're inferior).


Heck, at the start of the war they could've steamrolled Manticore and Haven (and the other powers in the area) at the same time- painfully, but I doubt there'd be any success in doubt. In the old paradigm, even winning fights involved more damage and the mighty Manticore fleet would be worn to nothing over the course of a campaign, while the Solarians could afford to send a few hundred more ships to the front every month.

It's only once you get Podnaughts and Multi-Drive Missiles that outrange the Solarians at the same time missile firepower is far more commonplace do numbers suddenly not matter so much and Manticorians/Havenite fleets can take apart Solarian fleets without taking much if any damage in return.

And in Solaria's "defense," those only came out relatively late in the war, so info-wise I think they're 'only' about 5-6 years behind.


Use of quotes means yes, they're still idiots and such, but it's not like they ignored stuff for generations, they're just used to technological changes in war happening at a much slower rate and even if the Manticorians had passed them with a 'normal' level of advancement akin to the development of laserheads (which is I think the biggest advancement in the last millennia not counting the recent- and I think was probably done by the Solarians), the assumption would be it'd be beatable by out-of-date stuff and they'd have pleeeanty of time to catch up.


So yea, the Solarians are dumb, but if one squints, you can see why they're dumb in that matter and the military paradigm they'd mentally operate in.

[Simon_Jester]

Poor Pyun. Poor Sollies.

So where was BuShips, Missile Defense Branch Desk in the Solarian League's Navy during the last what, fifteen years of Honorverse time?

Busy developing ECM drone networks and countermissile canisters to be fired out of main missile tubes. Solarian missile defense is actually really good by the standards of, well, anything deployed prior to 1914 Post-Diaspora. If it weren't for the multiple-drive missile I suspect they'd actually be stopping most of what was thrown at them.

The problem is that the transition from single to multiple drive missiles is a lot like the transition from piston engine aircraft to jets. It's not just that it makes your defense problem harder, it's that you have to back up and rethink from first principles how to defend. It makes entire categories of defensive systems obsolete (e.g. AA guns become nearly useless and give way to guided missiles).

But whereas Manticore was preparing to defend against MDMs probably as early as 1905-1910 (because they knew that was coming), and Haven has been engaged in maximum-effort research to defend against them since 1915 (when they started having MDMs shot at them), the Solarian League remained in collective denial up to about 1920. Note that all use of MDMs prior to 1921 took place in star systems not immediately adjacent to Solarian space (i.e. not in Manticore or anywhere else you'd expect massive Solarian presence as a matter of routine).

We have indications that private corporations within Solarian space are engaged in R&D that would lead them to viable defenses against MDMs... but that hardware simply has not reached the Solarian Navy yet.

So this is basically Imperial Japan suddenly developing an electronics industry many times more advanced than that of the United States circa 1945.

No, it's more like South Korea fielding more advanced and capable weapon systems than, say, China. Or the USSR, if it still existed.

Manticore has been obsessively reinvesting the huge piles of free money it gets from its big friendly spatial anomaly in advanced weapons technology for about sixty years at this point. They're a lot closer to the edge of the technological envelope permitted by 'modern' technology than the League is, simply because they have an active R&D cycle. Much more active than that of the League.

As a result, they've been able to pull ahead on the military R&D curve to build a lead of about one decade, while working hard for the past six decades, with the League not really even trying or even being aware it was in a race.

[Lonestar]

As a result, they've been able to pull ahead on the military R&D curve to build a lead of about one decade, while working hard for the past six decades, with the League not really even trying or even being aware it was in a race.

It's worth noting that the Solarian ground pounder equipment/small arms is still comparable to/higher quality than Mantie stuff at this point. Unsurprisingly, the Sollies maintain a tech edge, military wise, where it's applicable to help Frontier Security keep the the Verge down.

FWIW I'm currently reading through the HH main series, on Echoes of Honor right now, and right before the arrical of CLACs and MDMs onto the field the Peeps had been using Sollie electronics that had significantly closed the gap with pre-war Manticoran tech,

[Simon_Jester]

Right. Basically, the difference is that top of the line Solarian hardware of 1910 is pretty much the same as what they have in 1922 (post Diaspora, both cases). By contrast, Manticoran hardware of 1910 is only slightly better than Solarian hardware... buuuut they are right on the edge of deploying a boatload of revolutionary new weapons that they've been working on quietly for the past 30-40 years.

By contrast, the Solarians simply haven't been pursuing that kind of 'revolution in military affairs' technology, and consequently they don't have it. Only incremental improvements on the existing technologies.

[VhenRa]

Pretty much. In fact, going over their Scientist-class Super-Dreadnoughts, they are actually somewhat impressively well armed (if in the wrong manner) for their size.

32M, 24L, 26G, 16CM and 32PD per broadside on a 6.8MT ship. The closest Manticorean analog is the Bellerophon-class Dreadnoughts. (Which incidentally shows how old the Scientists are.)

The Bellerophons have: 33M, 15L, 18G, 24CM, 24PD per broadside. Significantly less weapons mounts, however you can see the age of the Scientists with their tiny counter-missile capabilities. My best guess as to where those 16 mounts per broadside went... is in armor and other passive survivability upgrades.

[Q99]

But whereas Manticore was preparing to defend against MDMs probably as early as 1905-1910 (because they knew that was coming), and Haven has been engaged in maximum-effort research to defend against them since 1915 (when they started having MDMs shot at them), the Solarian League remained in collective denial up to about 1920. Note that all use of MDMs prior to 1921 took place in star systems not immediately adjacent to Solarian space (i.e. not in Manticore or anywhere else you'd expect massive Solarian presence as a matter of routine).

We have indications that private corporations within Solarian space are engaged in R&D that would lead them to viable defenses against MDMs... but that hardware simply has not reached the Solarian Navy yet.

Part of the reason for that, also, is Battlefleet is huuuge and actually refitting it is a process that takes tons of money. When they heard there were better and more missiles in town, they didn't do nothing, they did... a small upgraded to some ships that increased defense in older conventional terms. Totally inadequate in new terms, but shows where they were mentally.

Solaria likes to advance by inches because their fleet is so big that upgraded it all is expensive and time-consuming. and in peacetime they have a relatively pittance budget.

I figure historically, with a new tech they'd rather give it to Frontier Fleet, test it out for a decade or two in RW conditions, then filter that back in for the next round of upgrades and designs for the battlefleet, in a continuous process which has little waste but is super slow.

Pretty much. In fact, going over their Scientist-class Super-Dreadnoughts, they are actually somewhat impressively well armed (if in the wrong manner) for their size.

32M, 24L, 26G, 16CM and 32PD per broadside on a 6.8MT ship. The closest Manticorean analog is the Bellerophon-class Dreadnoughts. (Which incidentally shows how old the Scientists are.)

The Bellerophons have: 33M, 15L, 18G, 24CM, 24PD per broadside. Significantly less weapons mounts, however you can see the age of the Scientists with their tiny counter-missile capabilities. My best guess as to where those 16 mounts per broadside went... is in armor and other passive survivability upgrades.

The Scientist class kinda has the duel disadvantage of being too small, and made for a prior era with lighter armor even next to craft of the same size- which isn't a last-5-years thing, the move to heavier armor came much further back- which, come to think of it, may have helped lead to the gradual size inflation of lineships as well.

Which goes back into what I was saying about Haven and other frontier powers having much better ship design doctrine. With inferior tech, they've had ships refined with usage, and then once they got Solarian tech their performance went way up because it's in superior designs (and they even designed many of their more recent classes with upgradability in mind under the idea that they'd either be sold tech by Solaria or steal it from captured Manticore ships. We see this in the Battlecruisers with tons of extra horsepower in anticipation of yoinking Manticore's better inertial compensators... and even when they don't, they find another use for this in pod towing).

[Lonestar]

Almost finished reading Ashes of Victory. At the assassination of Cromarty and the attempted assassination of Elizabeth it's remarked by the tac officer of the escorting LAC that the stealth missiles aren't like anything in the Alliance of PRH. So, interestingly, at least some Solarian Denfese Contractors were producing much better kit in some aspects at that point.

It's a pity we never saw these stealthy missiles again, or maybe for all we know they originated from Mesa.

[Q99]

Almost finished reading Ashes of Victory. At the assassination of Cromarty and the attempted assassination of Elizabeth it's remarked by the tac officer of the escorting LAC that the stealth missiles aren't like anything in the Alliance of PRH. So, interestingly, at least some Solarian Denfese Contractors were producing much better kit in some aspects at that point.

It's a pity we never saw these stealthy missiles again, or maybe for all we know they originated from Mesa.

I think they were low-speed drones, so good for assassinations and ambushes, not as great at open combat, but yea, definitely an interesting tech.

[SpottedKitty]

I think they were low-speed drones, so good for assassinations and ambushes, not as great at open combat, but yea, definitely an interesting tech.

Been a while since I last read that book, but yes, that's pretty much exactly it — the only reason the missiles were so stealthy was that their drives were low-powered; a higher power setting would have burned right through the stealth shielding. Ideal for sneaking up on an unaware target, useless in a conventional missile duel, which is probably why we haven't seen them used in an on-"camera" scene since then.