Disney SW-EU, the old EU with Mickey Ears.

[MKSheppard]

GG New Canon, you didn't even try, did you?

Essentially this. They could have done a significant clean up of the EU and carefully kept the better parts of the old Lucas-EU (Thrawn Trilogy), while jettisoning into limbo all sorts of garbage (Crystal Star and every Kevin J Anderson book written).

But like a disgustingly obese man who loses a hundred pounds on a fad diet; then slowly goes back to bad habits; Disney-EU is back to old habits, so the Disney-EU is rapidly accumulating garbage as fast as the Lucas-EU.

Part of it is due to them picking plain bad (Chuck Wendig) or just mediocre (James Luceno) authors to spearhead Disney-EU's printed division, and the usual attempts as before to continue to monetize everything and count it as canon (ref: Star Wars Rebels and suchlike), causing a chaotic fucked mess.

Take a look at what Luceno says happened in Tarkin:

Tarkin squinted at the hologram that appeared alongside the holopresence of the facility administrator. Dressed in an Imperial uniform, the man was tall and lean, with thick red hair and a raised scar on his left cheek that ran from the corner of a full mouth to a bionic eye not unlike the one worn by Vice Admiral Screed.

“His code cylinder identified him as Commander LaSal.”

“One moment, Administrator,” Tarkin said, stepping out of cam range and turning to the nearest specialist in the command post. “Run the hologram through the roster database. If indeed there is a Commander LaSal, find out where he is currently deployed.”

“Yes, sir,” the specialist said.

Tarkin moved back into view of the holocam. “You were saying, Administrator …”

“Only that LaSal’s rank plaque insignia and command cap disk looked legitimate.”

Tarkin wasn’t surprised. With all the shipjackers had already accomplished, forging command cylinder codes and insignias must have been child’s play.

“Sir,” the specialist said from his station, “the roster shows a Commander Abel LaSal deployed aboard the Star Destroyer Sovereign, currently docked at Fondor. But the likenesses don’t match up the way they should. Shall I contact the Sovereign?”

Tarkin was released 2014, and must have been in the works since 2013 or so. Rogue one was released 2016 and must have been in development since 2015 (assuming a two year dev cycle).

So can you see the inconsistencies?

Then there's the stupid set pieces; like Tarkin flying in a starfighter alongside Vader at one point

But it gets better!

In Catalyst, the "prequel" to ROUGE ONE there's this passage:

Krennic took the menacing posture in stride. “It’s my belief that a rescue by us will go a long way toward persuading Dr. Erso to share his research with the Special Weapons Group.”

Amedda retreated somewhat. “Why does he need to be persuaded? You said yourself that he was in the Republic Futures Program. He should be more than willing to comply and cooperate.”

“Except that he’s something of a pacifist. A conscientious objector, if you will.”

Amedda blew out his breath in disdain. “If that’s true, then we needn’t worry about him serving the Separatists. Let him rot in prison.”

You...hire a pacifist to work on the ULTIMATE WEAPON and you wonder why it all goes to shit?

Then the recent reveal in Wendig's final trilogy novel with a brief interlude on what happened to Jar Jar.

Just stop this Disney-EU, I want off. You had one job Disney, one job and you fucked it up.

[Darth Yan]

GG New Canon, you didn't even try, did you?

Essentially this. They could have done a significant clean up of the EU and carefully kept the better parts of the old Lucas-EU (Thrawn Trilogy), while jettisoning into limbo all sorts of garbage (Crystal Star and every Kevin J Anderson book written).

But like a disgustingly obese man who loses a hundred pounds on a fad diet; then slowly goes back to bad habits; Disney-EU is back to old habits, so the Disney-EU is rapidly accumulating garbage as fast as the Lucas-EU.

Part of it is due to them picking plain bad (Chuck Wendig) or just mediocre (James Luceno) authors to spearhead Disney-EU's printed division, and the usual attempts as before to continue to monetize everything and count it as canon (ref: Star Wars Rebels and suchlike), causing a chaotic fucked mess.

Take a look at what Luceno says happened in Tarkin:

Tarkin squinted at the hologram that appeared alongside the holopresence of the facility administrator. Dressed in an Imperial uniform, the man was tall and lean, with thick red hair and a raised scar on his left cheek that ran from the corner of a full mouth to a bionic eye not unlike the one worn by Vice Admiral Screed.

“His code cylinder identified him as Commander LaSal.”

“One moment, Administrator,” Tarkin said, stepping out of cam range and turning to the nearest specialist in the command post. “Run the hologram through the roster database. If indeed there is a Commander LaSal, find out where he is currently deployed.”

“Yes, sir,” the specialist said.

Tarkin moved back into view of the holocam. “You were saying, Administrator …”

“Only that LaSal’s rank plaque insignia and command cap disk looked legitimate.”

Tarkin wasn’t surprised. With all the shipjackers had already accomplished, forging command cylinder codes and insignias must have been child’s play.

“Sir,” the specialist said from his station, “the roster shows a Commander Abel LaSal deployed aboard the Star Destroyer Sovereign, currently docked at Fondor. But the likenesses don’t match up the way they should. Shall I contact the Sovereign?”

Tarkin was released 2014, and must have been in the works since 2013 or so. Rogue one was released 2016 and must have been in development since 2015 (assuming a two year dev cycle).

So can you see the inconsistencies?

Then there's the stupid set pieces; like Tarkin flying in a starfighter alongside Vader at one point

But it gets better!

In Catalyst, the "prequel" to ROUGE ONE there's this passage:

Krennic took the menacing posture in stride. “It’s my belief that a rescue by us will go a long way toward persuading Dr. Erso to share his research with the Special Weapons Group.”

Amedda retreated somewhat. “Why does he need to be persuaded? You said yourself that he was in the Republic Futures Program. He should be more than willing to comply and cooperate.”

“Except that he’s something of a pacifist. A conscientious objector, if you will.”

Amedda blew out his breath in disdain. “If that’s true, then we needn’t worry about him serving the Separatists. Let him rot in prison.”

You...hire a pacifist to work on the ULTIMATE WEAPON and you wonder why it all goes to shit?

Then the recent reveal in Wendig's final trilogy novel with a brief interlude on what happened to Jar Jar.

Just stop this Disney-EU, I want off. You had one job Disney, one job and you fucked it up.

Luceno's not a bad writer; hell the stuff he wrote for the old EU has held up pretty well (Unifying Force is actually in the top 3 as far as I'm concerned). And it was established they thought they had Galen by the balls so it's more plausible they were caught off guard.

In any case there are SOME elements of the old EU (Kotor Era) worth preserving.

[K. A. Pital]

To be fair, they did a cleanup and canonized Thrawn.

Mediocre writers had been the bane of almost every franchise, and WH40K and anything you name will suffer from crappily written, inherently contradictory as well as character-inconsistent material.

Then again, the Disney era started with a film about a crybaby Vader wannabe, otherwise known as "TFA". It can only get better.

[Simon_Jester]

I still think that having a Vader wannabe as the villain in The Force Awakens was actually a bold and valid artistic decision.

Darth Vader is widely agreed to have been one of the best villains of modern art history, at least within the SF&F genre. He's powerful, he's scary, his motivations are credible. Any villain they came up with in The Force Awakens would have been compared to Vader. Most likely, compared unfavorably (even more so now, given what a strong showing they gave Vader in Rogue One a year later).

So rather than try to create a villain as terrifying as Vader, and fail, they went down the exact opposite tack: They created a villain who wishes he was Vader, aspires to be Vader, fails to be Vader, while still being threatening- and that's the entire point of his character! Rather than play the losing game of satisfying Internet critics with "yeah, this guy's as bad as Darth Vader," they incorporated an inevitable problem (Vader's a hard act to follow) into their plot.

Kylo Ren is certainly not a likeable or admirable antagonist, but this is a starting point that actually gives us room for character growth in the villain- something very rare in fiction.

[MKSheppard]

Oh yeah, Kylo I'm not Jacen Solo! Honest! Ren.

They could have at least come up with a slightly more interesting backstory than something ripped out of the not-yet-cold corpse of the Bantam-EU.

EDIT: That's what irritates me so much about Mickey-EU; they went to the ultimate step of FULL REACTOR IGNITION against the established 25+ year back history of the EU, ostensibly to clean it up, and within just a few years, back to business as usual.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, there's a difference between "clean it up" as in "build a better one" and "clean it up" as in "burn it down and start over."

The old EU wasn't necessarily all that bad taken in total, it was just... crappified... by the sheer volume of contradictory material that limited anyone's ability to tell further stories. Like, there were three or four different canonical versions of how the Death Star plans (or portions thereof) had been obtained. Disney wanted to write one movie about that, with the hope of making it all Dirty Dozen-esque and all... so they have to blow up all those other versions. The entire post-Return of the Jedi chronology pretty much had to go, simply so they wouldn't have to obsessively go over all their Episode VII-IX content with a fine-toothed comb trying to parse things.

In theory they could have done this almost... 'microsurgery,' let's call it, on the canon and said "okay, we're decanonizing THIS list" (dump a list containing like 75% of all EU material). But that would have been very labor-intensive and there would have been a lot of edge cases and people screaming and bitching about how their favorite novel got decanonized and that dreck of a novel they hate wasn't.

You of all people should understand the appeal of just saying "fuck it" and going for the nuke-and-pave option.

[Shroom Man 777]

Kylo's an alt-right/young adult-adolescent spree killer version of the Dark Side/Sith and I dig that, he's unstable and pathetic yet at the same time possessing enormous raw potential and has displayed abilities exceeding previously shown Dark Side/Sith abilities - surviving direct bowcaster hits AND freezing blaster bolts mid air...

I approve of the debridement of the EU.

[Crazedwraith]

I still think that having a Vader wannabe as the villain in The Force Awakens was actually a bold and valid artistic decision

Seems more lazy to me. 'Oh we never could do better than Vader, we won't even try. We'll half arse it and call it meta' people love meta.

To be fair there's always a fine line in trying to write someone who's supposed to be lame/unfunny/annoying in-universe without just making them that to the audience too.

But to extend what K A Pital says, it vexes me that TFA is overflowing with tropes that people derided the EU for; New Empire, New Sith, annoying Solo kids. Ridicolous Superweapons. Endless rehash of OT stuff. And yet since its flashy film people lap it up.

[SolarpunkFan]

Then again, the Disney era started with a film about a crybaby Vader wannabe, otherwise known as "TFA". It can only get better.

That reminds me of a TV special where one person was sticking up for the depiction of Anakin in the prequel trilogy. He said that he always thought that Anakin would be a character that acted like a "whiny emo teenager".

Then TFA came around and we got a character even more so.

I must admit this: I'm a bit disappointed in the Disney EU so far after seeing both TFA and Rogue One. Here's hoping things get better, but I might just wait for the DVDs when new installments come out.

And if anyone here wants to throw a shoe at me for that opinion, then by all means do so.

[K. A. Pital]

I still think that having a Vader wannabe as the villain in The Force Awakens was actually a bold and valid artistic decision

Seems more lazy to me.

Yes, it was lazy. You could have done otherwise (have an enemy who is the exact opposite of Vader - Vader is driven by passion, anger, etc dark side, you could have an enemy who's cold and calculating), but not inferior. Darth Emo was "bold" only in the same way as Jacen Solo and Ben Skywalker - the character here's a combo of both - were "bold" findings of the EU.

Endless rehash of OT stuff. And yet since its flashy film people lap it up.

Pretty much. I still remember just how many books keep retelling the same story about a superweapon. But even this story could be told in a good way (KoTOR). We are just too used to such stories being re-told in the most awful way possible, so even a mediocre product gets recognized for "quality".

[Shroom Man 777]

I loathed the Starkiller.

And really... cold, calculating Sith? There's Palpatine for that already.

[Gandalf]

I still think that having a Vader wannabe as the villain in The Force Awakens was actually a bold and valid artistic decision.

For me, this is probably the best thing about TFA. Kylo Ren wants to be Darth Vader, and Rey wants to be one of the Rebels. They're people living in the shadows of mythology. It's a great reflection of the film itself; a Star Wars film made by fans, starring fans.

Unlike Rogue One, not a bitter disappointment full of needless pandering.

[DesertFly]

Take a look at what Luceno says happened in Tarkin:

Tarkin squinted at the hologram that appeared alongside the holopresence of the facility administrator. Dressed in an Imperial uniform, the man was tall and lean, with thick red hair and a raised scar on his left cheek that ran from the corner of a full mouth to a bionic eye not unlike the one worn by Vice Admiral Screed.

“His code cylinder identified him as Commander LaSal.”

“One moment, Administrator,” Tarkin said, stepping out of cam range and turning to the nearest specialist in the command post. “Run the hologram through the roster database. If indeed there is a Commander LaSal, find out where he is currently deployed.”

“Yes, sir,” the specialist said.

Tarkin moved back into view of the holocam. “You were saying, Administrator …”

“Only that LaSal’s rank plaque insignia and command cap disk looked legitimate.”

Tarkin wasn’t surprised. With all the shipjackers had already accomplished, forging command cylinder codes and insignias must have been child’s play.

“Sir,” the specialist said from his station, “the roster shows a Commander Abel LaSal deployed aboard the Star Destroyer Sovereign, currently docked at Fondor. But the likenesses don’t match up the way they should. Shall I contact the Sovereign?”

Tarkin was released 2014, and must have been in the works since 2013 or so. Rogue one was released 2016 and must have been in development since 2015 (assuming a two year dev cycle).

So can you see the inconsistencies? :angelic:

No? What are you getting at here?

[hunter5]

I still think that having a Vader wannabe as the villain in The Force Awakens was actually a bold and valid artistic decision.

Darth Vader is widely agreed to have been one of the best villains of modern art history, at least within the SF&F genre. He's powerful, he's scary, his motivations are credible. Any villain they came up with in The Force Awakens would have been compared to Vader. Most likely, compared unfavorably (even more so now, given what a strong showing they gave Vader in Rogue One a year later).

So rather than try to create a villain as terrifying as Vader, and fail, they went down the exact opposite tack: They created a villain who wishes he was Vader, aspires to be Vader, fails to be Vader, while still being threatening- and that's the entire point of his character! Rather than play the losing game of satisfying Internet critics with "yeah, this guy's as bad as Darth Vader," they incorporated an inevitable problem (Vader's a hard act to follow) into their plot.

Kylo Ren is certainly not a likeable or admirable antagonist, but this is a starting point that actually gives us room for character growth in the villain- something very rare in fiction.

I always had the impression that Kylo Ren was done in this way to show us how Anakin was suppose to be in the Prequals

[Galvatron]

No? What are you getting at here?

Agreed.

Shep, I read Tarkin and Catalyst too, but whatever inconsistencies you're pointing out are sailing way over my head. Can you clarify?

[Simon_Jester]

I think that if they have a really good villain concept for the sequel trilogy (I hope so), it may be for the best that they didn't reveal this villain in The Force Awakens. Episode VII is in some ways even more about having to advance, develop, grow, and 'come of age' (for Rey and Finn in particular) than Episode IV was for Luke. Giving them a starter villain they can hope to compete with, one who lacks the sheer, overwhelming power and intimidation of Vader, may be for the best.

Then you break out the big guns in Episodes VIII and IX, when Rey's skills are better established, when Luke is there to serve as a mentor, when Finn has recovered from his injuries.

Besides, there being an overarching villain who presents the really dangerous threat, the one that has to be overcome for good to triumph... but who doesn't play a pivotal role in the first movie of the trilogy? That is hardly a new idea in Star Wars.

I still think that having a Vader wannabe as the villain in The Force Awakens was actually a bold and valid artistic decision.

Darth Vader is widely agreed to have been one of the best villains of modern art history, at least within the SF&F genre. He's powerful, he's scary, his motivations are credible. Any villain they came up with in The Force Awakens would have been compared to Vader. Most likely, compared unfavorably (even more so now, given what a strong showing they gave Vader in Rogue One a year later).

So rather than try to create a villain as terrifying as Vader, and fail, they went down the exact opposite tack: They created a villain who wishes he was Vader, aspires to be Vader, fails to be Vader, while still being threatening- and that's the entire point of his character! Rather than play the losing game of satisfying Internet critics with "yeah, this guy's as bad as Darth Vader," they incorporated an inevitable problem (Vader's a hard act to follow) into their plot.

Kylo Ren is certainly not a likeable or admirable antagonist, but this is a starting point that actually gives us room for character growth in the villain- something very rare in fiction.

I always had the impression that Kylo Ren was done in this way to show us how Anakin was suppose to be in the Prequals

What, so he's deliberately grating as a callback to how Episode II/III Anakin was accidentally grating?

I... guess I can see it.

I just like the idea Gandalf mentioned, of having these characters who are very much stuck in the shadow of mythic, legendary heroes and villains, trying to figure out how to shape the galaxy for themselves.

I mean, the symbolism of starting on Jakku among the wreckage of old crashed Star Destroyers fits that pretty well too, I think. The entire point here is that yes, these stories are building on something that is huge and monumental both in our eyes and in the eyes of the setting's own characters.

[Joun_Lord]

I honestly don't mind they shitcanned the old EU. I have fond memories of it, many a long hours were spent with a Star Wars book or spend infront of a computer or tv playing the games. My original Xbox copy of KOTOR has a prominent place on my game shelf.

But there were two problems with the old EU. First and foremost it didn't leave alot of room for the new stuff. Everything and everyone had been done, pretty much 30 years of post ROTJ EU existed packed to the brim with fluff that made having new shit near impossible without treading over ground already done. And plenty of other material covered other time periods creating the same problem. Just the 2 existing movies of the nu-canon and the upcoming Han Solo one all deal with stuff thats already been done in the old canon. If they wanted to make the movies with the old canon intact they'd either have to make movie versions of what exists (which has its own set of problems including people knowing whats going to happen) or trying to selectively remove things while still keeping the house of cards intact. Imagine removing Dark Forces to make Rogue One, you've just invalidated several games and some fluff in atleast a couple books. Thats just minor, imagine trying to fit The Force Snoozes into the post-ROTJ canon. Unpossible.

The other problem is too much of the old EU was bad. Some was good, some was truly great, but quite a bit was dog shit terrible, so bad you'd swear Stephanie Meyer wrote it. Hitting that reset button gave them a chance to make a new canon that was completely great and wasn't buckling under its own weight.

However the reboot doesn't seem to be working. The Chuck Wendig Aftermath book just wasn't that good in any sort of way, even it attempts to provide LGBT representation (which Star Wars is sadly lacking in) felt just as hamfisted as everything else. Probably its biggest failing for me though was it didn't feel like a proper novel, it was just something to set up TFA and it suffered from that. I've not heard anything good about other novels. Rebels atleast to me personally from what little I've seen is kinda meh. I've had a couple people tell me it helps if I've seen all the Clone Wars series to get into it so I can't really tell if its it good or not if you need to watch other stuff to know though that doesn't speak well of it if true.

The movies were okay, I enjoyed Rogue One well enough and liked The Force Sleeps In to the point I'm literally wearing an Episode 7 shirt right now but they only exist by picking apart the carcass of the OT. They do little to nothing new, they have all the problems the old EU had with story, designs, themes, and characters all being ripped off from the OT. Even new characters are just barely modified versions of existing characters. Probably why I loved Finn so goddamn much, he didn't really feel like he was just a rehash of another character, he actually was as far as I can tell completely new. I mean I liked the other characters in the Force Unleashed, the most positive thing I can say about the movie was the characters were likable, but Rey was just a rehash of Luke, Poe just a rehash of Han right down to the snarky attitude, Kylo was Darth Vader with some more Anakin added (also known as Jacen Solo), and Supreme Emperor Snuke was just SHEEV Palpatine. Also the new EU named Palpatine Sheev, no wonder he was so pissed.

Rogue One was just literally coasting on nostalgia for ANH, without the connection as just a standalone movie I don't think it would have been as good. If it had been just another Prequel but without CGed Leia and Tarkin and Vader stealing his grandson's thunder would it be so well received?

For the new EU and canon in general to work for me I think he needs to start telling its own stories. Stay within the Star Wars mythos, still feel like Star Wars and all that but still try some new shit. Look to KOTOR for how it was done decently. It borrowed from the OT (and the Prequels), sometimes too much of both, but still tried its own things. Look the the PT despite fanboy whining, they did things differently and despite what the internet might say they are beloved by many. Look to the Clone Wars series, it managed to tell engaging and enjoyable tales without rehashing stuff that already happened mostly and when it did it usually did it better (hello Mandalorian arc).

Tell a story we haven't seen before. Use what came before but don't stay in its shadow.

Also would you kindly make some better fucking games then EA Battlefront and the mobile crap they are shitting out like me after chili night.

[MKSheppard]

Shep, I read Tarkin and Catalyst too, but whatever inconsistencies you're pointing out are sailing way over my head. Can you clarify?

Tarkin can within moments; get a detailed ID read out (down to what they look like in a 3D reconstruction) based on the code cylinders someone is wearing, even if that person is stationed halfway across the galaxy in a navy that probably has at least a billion personnel.

In ROUGE ONE a key plotpoint involves faking being an imperial by stealing their clothes (code cylinders included).

Do you see the problem this presents?

[MKSheppard]

The movies were okay, I enjoyed Rogue One well enough and liked The Force Sleeps In to the point I'm literally wearing an Episode 7 shirt right now but they only exist by picking apart the carcass of the OT. They do little to nothing new, they have all the problems the old EU had with story, designs, themes, and characters all being ripped off from the OT. Even new characters are just barely modified versions of existing characters.

Rogue One is probably the best of the Disney-Wars now. I love how Cassian Andor shoots a man in the back to ensure he tells no tales.

Probably why I loved Finn so goddamn much, he didn't really feel like he was just a rehash of another character, he actually was as far as I can tell completely new.

Except that Stormtroopers are utterly reliable and don't defect according to the 1994 Star Wars Style Guide v2.0 that was used by WEG, and full of useful shit; so much that Pablo Hidalgo still uses it to this day.

LINK

Granted the Empire is evil, but let's see some realistic evil: the Empire is trying to control people and maintain power. They're not going to execute people unless they think it will get them something — obedience from those who are around, for instance. The citizens of the Empire are, more often than not, Just folks who don't realize how evil the Empire can be because it never affects them personally.

[Shroom Man 777]

But First Order is a Boko Haram'ed rump of the Empire getting by with fanaticism, weird ass fetishistic-nostalgia warped meme-ideology... and mad evil superscience.

[Q99]

Essentially this. They could have done a significant clean up of the EU and carefully kept the better parts of the old Lucas-EU (Thrawn Trilogy), while jettisoning into limbo all sorts of garbage (Crystal Star and every Kevin J Anderson book written).

They could've done a lot of things, but including the Thrawn Trilogy is not one of them. It is at a very inconvenient point in the timeline, has anti-force lizards, cloning that works in a different way than the PT (much faster grown... and assumed to be technology left over from the baddie!), an evil Jedi using the force in a way that doesn't really fit with the movies (mass mind control), and lots of ramifications that one would have to figure in more... it's a good story but it's also a very hard to use story if one is breaking off the post-OT timeline.

Thrawn himself was worth saving, but there's so many elements that are rough fits at best.

So rather than try to create a villain as terrifying as Vader, and fail, they went down the exact opposite tack: They created a villain who wishes he was Vader, aspires to be Vader, fails to be Vader, while still being threatening- and that's the entire point of his character! Rather than play the losing game of satisfying Internet critics with "yeah, this guy's as bad as Darth Vader," they incorporated an inevitable problem (Vader's a hard act to follow) into their plot.

Agreed! Take a look at other EU villains. A whole lot of them, even ones I like, are basically attempts to be the 'new Vader,' the big strong dark menacing villain everyone's afraid of, likely a cyborg (Darth Malgus, Krayt, Malak, Caedus...). And a lot of them fall flat (I'll skip listing these but there were a ton of sith wannabes).

"This character really, really wants to be Vader... but just isn't." has a strong meta resonance in there. Trying to make a new Vader is hard and even if it works it's just Vader 2.0. Purposefully aiming for someone merely attached to the image of Vader? That took guts.

In theory they could have done this almost... 'microsurgery,' let's call it, on the canon and said "okay, we're decanonizing THIS list" (dump a list containing like 75% of all EU material). But that would have been very labor-intensive and there would have been a lot of edge cases and people screaming and bitching about how their favorite novel got decanonized and that dreck of a novel they hate wasn't.

You of all people should understand the appeal of just saying "fuck it" and going for the nuke-and-pave option.

Additionally, keep in old stuff and not only did you spend a lot of effort to microsurgery it in to sell old books, but it means for us who read the old stories? We're getting less new stuff, we get 'very similar including overlap' parallel stories where we're partway through something new, then get hit with a, "Now go back and re-read this again," then once that's done go back to new stuff.

It's possible but not worth the effort. Even when the two hit similar grounds, it's better to just do the new one new- like, now we're actually getting new Thrawn material we wouldn't have gotten in the old version. Yea, Kylo and Caedus have obvious similarities. They're also different characters and Caedus's fall sucked. Kylo's never the Jedi of lightside Caedus, his fall is different, and he's got a different thematic connection. Etc. etc..

[Simon_Jester]

Shep, I read Tarkin and Catalyst too, but whatever inconsistencies you're pointing out are sailing way over my head. Can you clarify?

Tarkin can within moments; get a detailed ID read out (down to what they look like in a 3D reconstruction) based on the code cylinders someone is wearing, even if that person is stationed halfway across the galaxy in a navy that probably has at least a billion personnel.

In ROUGE ONE a key plotpoint involves faking being an imperial by stealing their clothes (code cylinders included).

Do you see the problem this presents?

It presents a problem if someone stops to check your ID against archived footage. If they don't, you don't have a problem. Since they only need the disguise to work for one trip through the enemy base, while the base security is in disarray due to a diversionary attack... they probably don't have a problem.

Rogue One was just literally coasting on nostalgia for ANH, without the connection as just a standalone movie I don't think it would have been as good. If it had been just another Prequel but without CGed Leia and Tarkin and Vader stealing his grandson's thunder would it be so well received?

Well, it's very obviously designed to fit into an overarching plot, because the actions of the main characters only matter in a broader context, which was, yes, set by A New Hope. I don't think that's a bad thing, and the movie works on its own merits. Plus, you were complaining just a moment ago about how all the characters in The Force Awakens feel like retreads- NONE of the Rogue One characters do, except for the ones that are explicitly drawn from another movie.

Krennic is a different kind of villain- the evil middle manager! Cassian is a revolutionary willing to do nasty things, even to his own side, for the cause- we haven't seen much of that in the core Star Wars canon. Jyn is at least different, among other things in that she's not a secret Force user or something. K-2SO is, like, the anti-Chewbacca and the anti-C3PO rolled up into one robot. Slightly Shady Imperial Pilot guy is different. Obi-Wan Miyagi (the blind guy whose name I forget) and Guy With A Big Gun may be stereotypical, but at least they're different stereotypical characters than what we've gotten out of Star Wars, and they're played very well.

So if you're unhappy that Star Wars constantly retreads the same ground with its characterization and plotting, Rogue One is about as bold a break with that pattern as can be imagined.

I think Rogue One stands on its own merits, as I said. If it were a standalone movie, we'd all be interested to see the sequel- do the Rebels succeed in blowing up the Death Star now that they have the plans? As it stands we know how that story ends already, but that's not a fault in Rogue One.

Except that Stormtroopers are utterly reliable and don't defect according to the 1994 Star Wars Style Guide v2.0 that was used by WEG, and full of useful shit; so much that Pablo Hidalgo still uses it to this day.

Which is exactly why they decanonized it, because they want to be able to do whatever the fuck they want. If they want to recanonize and use bits of it they can. If they don't want to, then they don't have to.

If they want a stormtrooper who has an attack of conscience and defects to the Rebellion, then great! That is a good idea, that is interesting! If one of his former comrades bellows "TRAITOR!" at him and engages him in wonky electro-club combat, great! All of that is much more interesting than having the stormtroopers act like emotionless robots made out of meat, in a setting that already has real robots made out of steel.

My only regret is that they built up Captain Phasma as being kind of cool and different and then didn't make any use of her except as, effectively, a hostage who lowers her own base defenses at gunpoint.

[Joun_Lord]

Rogue One is probably the best of the Disney-Wars now. I love how Cassian Andor shoots a man in the back to ensure he tells no tales.

It was good though I had a couple minor quibbles. One, it wasn't Kyle Katarn and Jan Ors and two, some of the designs. The designs in particular bothered me with the TIE Striker and U-Wing looking butt-ugly like they were somebodies kitbashed models and the Deathtroopers pretty meh. I did like the Shoretrooper armor (even if the name was stupid) and loved Andor's AR-15 based modular weapon.

Except that Stormtroopers are utterly reliable and don't defect according to the 1994 Star Wars Style Guide v2.0 that was used by WEG, and full of useful shit; so much that Pablo Hidalgo still uses it to this day.

Even if true those are different Stormtroopers then the FO ones. Really the actual Stormtroopers should be more likely to defect considering they are just normal Joes who might find the Empire does evil shit to be bad, the First Order troopers were indoctrinated from childhood.

Well, it's very obviously designed to fit into an overarching plot, because the actions of the main characters only matter in a broader context, which was, yes, set by A New Hope. I don't think that's a bad thing, and the movie works on its own merits. Plus, you were complaining just a moment ago about how all the characters in The Force Awakens feel like retreads- NONE of the Rogue One characters do, except for the ones that are explicitly drawn from another movie.

Krennic is a different kind of villain- the evil middle manager! Cassian is a revolutionary willing to do nasty things, even to his own side, for the cause- we haven't seen much of that in the core Star Wars canon. Jyn is at least different, among other things in that she's not a secret Force user or something. K-2SO is, like, the anti-Chewbacca and the anti-C3PO rolled up into one robot. Slightly Shady Imperial Pilot guy is different. Obi-Wan Miyagi (the blind guy whose name I forget) and Guy With A Big Gun may be stereotypical, but at least they're different stereotypical characters than what we've gotten out of Star Wars, and they're played very well.

So if you're unhappy that Star Wars constantly retreads the same ground with its characterization and plotting, Rogue One is about as bold a break with that pattern as can be imagined.

I think Rogue One stands on its own merits, as I said. If it were a standalone movie, we'd all be interested to see the sequel- do the Rebels succeed in blowing up the Death Star now that they have the plans? As it stands we know how that story ends already, but that's not a fault in Rogue One.

I don't know if it would work on its own merits personally. Standalone, say if ANH hadn't been made, it would just be a heist movie and not a terrible one but nothing special beyond being......IN SPACE!!!!!!!! The big payoff of the movie with the exception of one thing (and this is my opinion I'll admit) is seeing how it connects to ANH.

Now the exception is the characters. Like TFA characters I liked most of the characters in RO but unlike TFA they were mostly not just rehashes of existing characters, yes. Of course the movie itself was less of a ripoff of existing Star Wars compared to TFA. Sure there is some parallels to ROTJ but its not quite so carbon copy as TFA was to ANH. There are some parallels to existing characters but none are really ripoffs of existing characters. Well except Mon Mothman, Dark Vader, Princess Laya, and Moff Tarken, they seemed awfully familiar.

Mind you I'm complaining far less about Rogue One compared to TFA or some of the EU. Its far more original then any of that shtuff. But while its more original it again relies too much on ANH to carry it. Yeah I know thats to be expected, complaining about it is like complaining that Return relied far too much on Empire to carry it though in the opposite manner (people wanted to see ROTJ to see how the events of Empire paid off while people wanted to see Rogue One to see how the events of ANH were set up), again not giving RO too much crap.

[Simon_Jester]

If Rogue One were a standalone, it'd be a heist movie and a pretty good one- but obviously incomplete as written, because it's the first half of a larger story. If it were really a standalone, it'd be a completely different movie. Or it'd have to be drastically rewritten.

But at least it's different, so giving it flak for being exactly what it's supposed to be kind of pointless and spiteful.

I mean, you've gotta leave Disney SOME way to please you. If they retread old Star Wars ground, you give them a hard time for that. If they depart from the formula while staying within the overarching meta-plot of Star Wars as a whole, you give them a hard time for that instead? How do they win in that situation? By scrapping the Star Wars IP entirely and starting over? None of us really want that.

[Joun_Lord]

Like I said, I'm not giving too much flak to Rogue One. Mostly my thing about it storywise is I don't know if it would be as enjoyable standalone. I am a bit concerned the fact Disney again had to go to ANH to make a movie (but that is part of my overall worry about the new canon and not limited to RO). They couldn't do something actually new and let it stand on its own, they had to use existing material as a crutch. Mostly minor quibbles, fatty nerd bullshit, and Rogue One using ANH as a crutch is far less shitty as TFA doing so, it doesn't ripoff ANH but actually expands it, actually adds to the story rather then rehashing it.

No really the main problem I have with Rogue One is designs, real man bewb flappin' fatty nerd shit. I think some of the designs are crap, like the worst of the old EU.