What did I learn from TIME today...?

[Ymir]

Where did you miss the part where we delivered the Taliban an ultimatum and suggested that if only they’d disown and offer up al-Qaeda they could escape regimé-change?

I diden't. I just happen to believe that the logic in that would be like China forcing USA to hand over the persons responsible for that missil that happened to hit their embassy in Belgrad, or else they would declare war. Yes, the Taliban regime housed Al-Qaida, but there isen't one trace of evidence that the talibans knew anything about Al-Qaidas plans against USA. If the terrorists had been german communists, such an ultimatum would never have been given to Germany.

The High Council’s notions of universal democracy are hardly threatened. Why? Because after the evil Sultan is gone, we’ll be that much closer to peace. After him, there really isn’t anybody else to use force against per se.

On this board, you get a rather different view on that. In this thread i have seen people talking seriously about attacking North Korea and Saudi Arabia, and that scares me as hell.


Of course France and co. wanted to protect their own interests, everyone wants that. But there is a line on how far you should go, and the US crosses that line all the time. Like right now in Iraq.

- Ymir, draws lines

[Ymir]

Can you give us a country?

Do i really have to bring up Vietnam?

- Ymir, wondering

[fgalkin]

Where did you miss the part where we delivered the Taliban an ultimatum and suggested that if only they’d disown and offer up al-Qaeda they could escape regimé-change?

I diden't. I just happen to believe that the logic in that would be like China forcing USA to hand over the persons responsible for that missil that happened to hit their embassy in Belgrad, or else they would declare war. Yes, the Taliban regime housed Al-Qaida, but there isen't one trace of evidence that the talibans knew anything about Al-Qaidas plans against USA. If the terrorists had been german communists, such an ultimatum would never have been given to Germany.

The High Council’s notions of universal democracy are hardly threatened. Why? Because after the evil Sultan is gone, we’ll be that much closer to peace. After him, there really isn’t anybody else to use force against per se.

On this board, you get a rather different view on that. In this thread i have seen people talking seriously about attacking North Korea and Saudi Arabia, and that scares me as hell.


Of course France and co. wanted to protect their own interests, everyone wants that. But there is a line on how far you should go, and the US crosses that line all the time. Like right now in Iraq.

- Ymir, draws lines

1)Again, what of the Taliban-supported training camps?

2)It scares the shit out of you that we wish to destroy a threat to the Western culture before it destroys us?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Joe]

Can you give us a country?

Do i really have to bring up Vietnam?

- Ymir, wondering

Vietnam does not compare to European imperialism.

[fgalkin]

Can you give us a country?

Do i really have to bring up Vietnam?

- Ymir, wondering

Not imperiralism. Try again.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Ymir]

Again, what of the Taliban-supported training camps?

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but those where rather briefly described in swedish media. I'm sure american media have a rather larger interest in everything that ties them to the talibans. Of course, i do think that the talibans had something to do with terrorism, but how strong those ties where, i cannot say. Probably no one can. Obviously not even the US government.

It scares the shit out of you that we wish to destroy a threat to the Western culture before it destroys us?

In fact...yes, it does. The supposed 'threath to western culture' are no more than different, in some cases albeit twisted, opinions. Like many westerners opinions seem to be about them. They see the US as exactly the same - a threath to their culture and traditions. And whatever i think about their culture, at least i can understand how they feel.

We should meet and try to understand, not wage war and terrorism against one another. But the US seems not to inclined to agree on that opinion, at least not in the way most europeans do.

- Ymir, likes cultures. Even muslim ones.

[Ymir]

Vietnam does not compare to European imperialism.

So what? European imperialism took place at least 50 years ago. USAs more refined version takes place now. If you look for exact comparisions, i cannot help, but i think the core is pretty much the same.

- Ymir, how do you spell 'comparisions'?

[fgalkin]

Again, what of the Taliban-supported training camps?

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but those where rather briefly described in swedish media. I'm sure american media have a rather larger interest in everything that ties them to the talibans. Of course, i do think that the talibans had something to do with terrorism, but how strong those ties where, i cannot say. Probably no one can. Obviously not even the US government.

The link of the Taliban regim and Osama bin Laden has been reported in Russian media since the first Chachen war, when most Americans had no clue as to Afghanistan's existance.

It scares the shit out of you that we wish to destroy a threat to the Western culture before it destroys us?

In fact...yes, it does. The supposed 'threath to western culture' are no more than different, in some cases albeit twisted, opinions. Like many westerners opinions seem to be about them. They see the US as exactly the same - a threath to their culture and traditions. And whatever i think about their culture, at least i can understand how they feel.

. Good. How do you propose to solve this problem, then?

We should meet and try to understand, not wage war and terrorism against one another. But the US seems not to inclined to agree on that opinion, at least not in the way most europeans do.

Are you familiar with the term Islamic jihad. And no, I don't mean the original meaning of the word.

- Ymir, likes cultures. Even muslim ones.

How absolutely magnificent for you.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Joe]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but those where rather briefly described in swedish media. I'm sure american media have a rather larger interest in everything that ties them to the talibans. Of course, i do think that the talibans had something to do with terrorism, but how strong those ties where, i cannot say. Probably no one can. Obviously not even the US government.

I'll say it right here; it is a well-known fact that the Taliban government gave sancutuary to Osama bin Laden, as well as many other al-Qaeda members. Common knowledge; hell, the Taliban boasted of it!

In fact...yes, it does. The supposed 'threath to western culture' are no more than different, in some cases albeit twisted, opinions. Like many westerners opinions seem to be about them. They see the US as exactly the same - a threath to their culture and traditions. And whatever i think about their culture, at least i can understand how they feel.
We should meet and try to understand, not wage war and terrorism against one another. But the US seems not to inclined to agree on that opinion, at least not in the way most europeans do.

Fundamentalist Muslims want you either dead or living with them in the 10th century. They're not interested in our respect, or tolerance, or understanding. They are right to see the U.S. as a threat to their barbaric culture and traditions. We are, and I'm proud of that.

[RogueIce]

I diden't. I just happen to believe that the logic in that would be like China forcing USA to hand over the persons responsible for that missil that happened to hit their embassy in Belgrad, or else they would declare war. Yes, the Taliban regime housed Al-Qaida, but there isen't one trace of evidence that the talibans knew anything about Al-Qaidas plans against USA. If the terrorists had been german communists, such an ultimatum would never have been given to Germany.

There's a difference between accidental civilian death by a misguided missle and hijacking airliners to fly into office buildings...

And, as was mentioned, they were Taliban-sponsered training camps. So, they didn't know, right? Just like they never shot people in the soccer stadiums...

And do you think, if the terrorists had been German communists, that Germany would've kept them? They've been on the recieving end of a pissed off America before.

Damn the fast moving nature of this thread...

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but those where rather briefly described in swedish media. I'm sure american media have a rather larger interest in everything that ties them to the talibans. Of course, i do think that the talibans had something to do with terrorism, but how strong those ties where, i cannot say. Probably no one can. Obviously not even the US government.

Um, I think the US government has...before you go around claiming who was the knowledge of these camps (or lack thereof) in what countries, do a little research and please back up your claim. You made the claim of the Taliban not being aware of the Al Qeada training camps, you provide the proof of this claim please.

We should meet and try to understand, not wage war and terrorism against one another. But the US seems not to inclined to agree on that opinion, at least not in the way most europeans do.

Be glad to. But not after someone flies airliners into office buildings in my country, and gasses his own people.

- Ymir, likes cultures. Even muslim ones.

And what, exactly, are you implying? That the rest of us do not?

So what? European imperialism took place at least 50 years ago. USAs more refined version takes place now . If you look for exact comparisions, i cannot help, but i think the core is pretty much the same.

Again, please provide some proof of current "USAs more refined" imperialism.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

We don't have to speculate. It's already worked. I can barely count the number of times I've been called a hippie or liberal, or told I "don't support our troops" on this board since the war-talk started, and this board is supposed to be a haven for free-thinkers.

It still is; no one is censoring your opinion. Mind you, that also means no one's censoring THEIR opinions either, and you are perfectly free to flame them back as heartless warmongering jingoistic assholes if you like. You can always piss them off by simply declaring that they don't give a fuck about American soldiers and are sending them off to die for cheap oil. When they accuse you of exaggerating their position, just say "now you know how it feels"

Hehe, who would do something like that? *halo*

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

For what it's worth, Arthur, I'm sorry for calling you a hippie a while back (in any case, I've been called a redneck by Enlightenment, so I know that being labeled is no fun).

Thanks. I can't remember what I said to you, but I remember it being mean. Sorry about that.

[Ymir]

In fact...yes, it does. The supposed 'threath to western culture' are no more than different, in some cases albeit twisted, opinions. Like many westerners opinions seem to be about them. They see the US as exactly the same - a threath to their culture and traditions. And whatever i think about their culture, at least i can understand how they feel.

. Good. How do you propose to solve this problem, then?

At least not by a solution that gives birth to more conflicts. And that so-called 'solution' are war. Maybe an acknowledged palestinian state would be a good start?

Are you familiar with the term Islamic jihad. And no, I don't mean the original meaning of the word.

Yeah, but i'm also familiar with the christian term 'Crusade', a term president Bush seems to like a lot. They are practically the same thing.

Fundamentalist Muslims want you either dead or living with them in the 10th century. They're not interested in our respect, or tolerance, or understanding. They are right to see the U.S. as a threat to their barbaric culture and traditions. We are, and I'm proud of that.

And what gives you, with a president that uses the same arguments as popes in the 14th century (they'll get their judgement by god if they are innocent, so let's kill them now), to judge another as more primitive than yourself? What in the whole world gives you any kind of right to express such an opinion about another culture? How do you know that they are not interested in your respect, tolerance, or understanding? If they want to stay in the 10th century, which they obviously not do (they should be in the 13th by now, according to islamic calendar), why not simply let them?

That kind of conviction that your own ideas, values and opinions are better than others does nothing but lower you down to the level you place them at.

- Ymir, tired[/quote]

[Joe]

And what gives you, with a president that uses the same arguments as popes in the 14th century (they'll get their judgement by god if they are innocent, so let's kill them now), to judge another as more primitive than yourself? What in the whole world gives you any kind of right to express such an opinion about another culture?

I smell the acrid stench of cultural relativism. Source on where Bush has used that argument, please.

I express such a low opinion of fundamentalist Islam because I know it's inferior to Western culture; I know that women ought not be treated like doormats, I know that killing non-believers is not an acceptable practice, and I know that children should not be savagely beaten for disrespecting their parents.

How do you know that they are not interested in your respect, tolerance, or understanding?

Read public statements by Osama bin Laden. Read al-Qaeda literature. Read the Koran.

If they want to stay in the 10th century, which they obviously not do (they should be in the 13th by now, according to islamic calendar), why not simply let them?

They do want to retain the 10th-century morality of the Koran - that is for certain. And it would be nice if we could allow them to bask in their idiocy, but, you know what? They're not interested in leaving us alone.

[RogueIce]

Yeah, but i'm also familiar with the christian term 'Crusade', a term president Bush seems to like a lot. They are practically the same thing.

He said that earlier, but no, so far as I know, he's stopped.

And what gives you, with a president that uses the same arguments as popes in the 14th century (they'll get their judgement by god if they are innocent, so let's kill them now),to judge another as more primitive than yourself? What in the whole world gives you any kind of right to express such an opinion about another culture? How do you know that they are not interested in your respect, tolerance, or understanding? If they want to stay in the 10th century, which they obviously not do (they should be in the 13th by now, according to islamic calendar), why not simply let them?

Re: red text... When the FUCK did Bush ever say THAT??!!

As for the rest of it...it's not a matter of letting them live in the 10th century or whenever; if that's what they want, then by all means, go for it. It's trying to force the rest of the world into it that most of us take issue with. And that method of force usually involves killing civilians in the worst way they can think of.

Sure, let's let 'em keep killing civilians. Great idea...

That kind of conviction that your own ideas, values and opinions are better than others does nothing but lower you down to the level you place them at.

I haven't seen anyone else (in this particular debate) say our ideas and way of life is that much greater than those of people living in the Middle East or elsewhere. The main objection has been when they try to force their way of life upon us by violence and terrorism that is at issue.

- Ymir, tired

Does that mean you'll go away now?

(Look, my first semi-flame!)

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Re: red text... When the FUCK did Bush ever say THAT??!!

He didn't. Ymir did.

[RogueIce]

I haven't seen anyone else (in this particular debate) say our ideas and way of life is that much greater than those of people living in the Middle East or elsewhere. The main objection has been when they try to force their way of life upon us by violence and terrorism that is at issue.

I express such a low opinion of fundamentalist Islam because I know it's inferior to Western culture; I know that women ought not be treated like doormats, I know that killing non-believers is not an acceptable practice, and I know that children should not be savagely beaten for disrespecting their parents.

Ok, I amend my statement in light of what Duran posted.

But, fuck, I agree with him on that count. Basic human rights here.

[fgalkin]

In fact...yes, it does. The supposed 'threath to western culture' are no more than different, in some cases albeit twisted, opinions. Like many westerners opinions seem to be about them. They see the US as exactly the same - a threath to their culture and traditions. And whatever i think about their culture, at least i can understand how they feel.

. Good. How do you propose to solve this problem, then?

At least not by a solution that gives birth to more conflicts. And that so-called 'solution' are war. Maybe an acknowledged palestinian state would be a good start?

I disagree. However, there is a moratorium on Israel/Palestine debates, so I'm sure as hell won't start one.

Are you familiar with the term Islamic jihad. And no, I don't mean the original meaning of the word.

Yeah, but i'm also familiar with the christian term 'Crusade', a term president Bush seems to like a lot. They are practically the same thing.

Bush did not use the term "crusade" to my knowledge. Besides, we are discussing war in general, not the shortcomings of a single administration

Fundamentalist Muslims want you either dead or living with them in the 10th century. They're not interested in our respect, or tolerance, or understanding. They are right to see the U.S. as a threat to their barbaric culture and traditions. We are, and I'm proud of that.

And what gives you, with a president that uses the same arguments as popes in the 14th century (they'll get their judgement by god if they are innocent, so let's kill them now), to judge another as more primitive than yourself? What in the whole world gives you any kind of right to express such an opinion about another culture? How do you know that they are not interested in your respect, tolerance, or understanding? If they want to stay in the 10th century, which they obviously not do (they should be in the 13th by now, according to islamic calendar), why not simply let them?

That last statement made no sense whatsoever. When did Bush use the arguments of the popes? What does their calendar have to do with the fact that they want to return to the way of life in the 10th century Arabic kingdoms? We know they are not interested in tolerance, because they seem to be bent on destroying everything that has not been blessed by Allah.

That kind of conviction that your own ideas, values and opinions are better than others does nothing but lower you down to the level you place them at.

Very well, then. Turn of the electricity in your house, shut down the water, hang your TV set from the nearest tree, and throw out every piece of equipment that has been invented in the past 1000 years. How will you like living under those conditions?

- Ymir, tired

[/quote]Same here.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[RogueIce]

Re: red text... When the FUCK did Bush ever say THAT??!!

He didn't. Ymir did.

Didn't think so...

So, Ymir, putting words in Bush's mouth now?

[Ymir]

I express such a low opinion of fundamentalist Islam because I know it's inferior to Western culture; I know that women ought not be treated like doormats, I know that killing non-believers is not an acceptable practice, and I know that children should not be savagely beaten for disrespecting their parents.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. That and nothing more.

Read the Koran.

So the Qu'ran disencourage respect, tolerance and understandning? You really mean that? A holy book of one of the world greatest religions promoting such a message, and followed by millions of people for hundreds of years? That seems rather unbeliavable to me, and i have read it two times. Believe what you will about i, i, and some hundred million muslims throughout the world would happen to disagree.

They do want to retain the 10th-century morality of the Koran - that is for certain. And it would be nice if we could allow them to bask in their idiocy, but, you know what? They're not interested in leaving us alone.

Oh yes, they are. About 99% of them only wants to mind their own buisiness, and maybe have a little share of our enormous material wealth. But they want to retain their own culture and morality, and your strange, almost rasistic perspective off time has nothing to do with it.

- Ymir, are still not defending dictatorship

[Ymir]

During Bushs time as governor in Texas, there was some great protests against a women being death sentenced on poor grounds. Bush used that argument to justify her execution, although i cannot qoute exactly what he said.

- Ymir, who thinks that death sentences have nothing to do in a democracy

[fgalkin]

- Ymir, are still not defending dictatorship

Oh, yes you do.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

During Bushs time as governor in Texas, there was some great protests against a women being death sentenced on poor grounds. Bush used that argument to justify her execution, although i cannot qoute exactly what he said.

- Ymir, who thinks that death sentences have nothing to do in a democracy

Source, please.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Kuja]

So the Qu'ran disencourage respect, tolerance and understandning? You really mean that? A holy book of one of the world greatest religions promoting such a message, and followed by millions of people for hundreds of years?

According to the Islamic extremists, yes.

[Ymir]

Oh, yes you do.

Feel free to believe what you want.

Source, please.

If i had it in reach i would have quoted him exactly, wouldn't i?

- Ymir, think it was some documentary about Bushs career