A Firefly/Serenity vs. Star Wars question.

[The Romulan Republic]

Simple question:

What is the smallest Star Wars force (of any faction) that would be realistically capable of invading, defeating, and occupying Alliance space? Occupy, not simply exterminate.

I will note that to the best of my knowledge, the Alliance is confined to a single system, has no FTL, and no energy shields.

However, their is some evidence of planetary depopulation capabilities via orbital bombardment, which suggests gigaton-level firepower minimum. The system in question is also very large, having, if I'm recalling the movie correctly, dozens of planets and hundreds of moons via terraforming. Considering that a single, fairly new colony world (Miranda) had 30 million in the film, it is plausible that total population runs well into the billions, if not higher.

The Alliance also is a step up from Star Trek for its ground forces, in that its infantry routinely use body armour and artillery, armoured vehicle, and air support seem to be standard for major engagements (at least if what we see of the Battle of Serenity and other engagements in the war via flashback are anything to go by).

They've also done some experimentation with creating psychic assassins, with mixed results.

Their's no doubting who would win in a war between them and a major Wars power, of course. I'm just wondering how large a force it would take, and what tactics/stratagems might be employed.

[FaxModem1]

Most of the Outer Planets and moons could be taken care of by a couple Acclamators with their troop capacity, as a lot of those world's have a few small towns, and that's about it. The core worlds would be their main concern, which seem to rival Coruscant in their levels of industrialization and build up, as well as population. That might actually require quite a few more troops around to keep everything in order. Depending on how intact they want everything.

It's also worth noting that Firefly ships have no form of shields, so the battles in space will be rather one-sided.

[Q99]

Most of the Outer Planets and moons could be taken care of by a couple Acclamators with their troop capacity, as a lot of those world's have a few small towns, and that's about it. The core worlds would be their main concern, which seem to rival Coruscant in their levels of industrialization and build up, as well as population. That might actually require quite a few more troops around to keep everything in order. Depending on how intact they want everything.

It's also worth noting that Firefly ships have no form of shields, so the battles in space will be rather one-sided.

I wouldn't say Coruscant, but pretty highly developed, yea.

The main concern will be taking and holding so much, more-so than the space battles. We saw a large spacebattle in Serenity and it was unimpressive by, say, Babylon 5 or Star Trek standards, let alone Star Wars (firepower wise, that is- it was quite spectacular and fun to watch!). Something like a Nebulon-B could've flown through the Serenity battle and wiped both sides. A Corellian Corvette may be able to as well, it'd just take longer and they'd maybe have to worry about being rammed. So I agree the space side will be quite one-sided, though the Imperials may want to co-opt rather than blow up local navies due to the lack of threat they pose and I can foresee Alliance military being placed under Imperial command.

[The Romulan Republic]

Agreed that the space battle would be one-sided, but in absolute fairness, the biggest Alliance ships were not present at that particular engagement (after all, the Operative believed he was just nabbing one renegade freighter- if he'd known a Reaver fleet was going to show up, he might have brought more firepower).

[FaxModem1]

Space superiority might make quite a difference. 'Purple Bellies' being deployed to a place like Londoniuum or Shadow are going to have a problem reinforcing a planet if all their troop transports get destroyed in transit. Ships like the IAV Dortmunder seemed to be the Alliance's way of projecting their power in the system. Superior firepower, speed, and defense, all of which the Imperials have over the Alliance, means that Alliance logistics would be severely hampered. This would would free up Imperial ability to hold a world if the Alliance can never get troops to their destination to a fight.

That's also assuming they don't play the Browncoats against the Alliance and scoop up the winners. Depending on the era the Imperials arrive, of course.

[The Romulan Republic]

For era, let's say start of the TV show. Browncoats have been beaten.

Edit: Theoretically, yes, a Star Wars fleet could lock down every world within an impenetrable blockade. Though that would require a fairly large fleet, I suspect, given the size of the system and the number of worlds.

Although... what's the range on ISD scanners and fighters, for example? Since its all one system, could a single starship's fighter compliment simply intercept anything launching off of any world?

[Q99]

Agreed that the space battle would be one-sided, but in absolute fairness, the biggest Alliance ships were not present at that particular engagement (after all, the Operative believed he was just nabbing one renegade freighter- if he'd known a Reaver fleet was going to show up, he might have brought more firepower).

While not the City-esque ship we saw, they did have some pretty big cruisers.

I'd hazard a guess that their biggest ships are really more carriers/mobile bases too.

Although... what's the range on ISD scanners and fighters, for example? Since its all one system, could a single starship's fighter compliment simply intercept anything launching off of any world?

They don't cover a whole system- ESB had a plot point of jumping in too close and revealing themselves... and that also further implies the arrival would be detected but flying in closer could be done in relative stealth.

In short, they'd need ships for coverage.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hmm. Been a while since I watched the episode, but I'm pretty sure we see one of the big ships firing some sort of weapon in episode three. When they blow up that derelict the Reavers had taken. So they're not pure carriers.

As to the second point, yeah, I should have remembered the arrival at Hoth.

[Q99]

Hmm. Been a while since I watched the episode, but I'm pretty sure we see one of the big ships firing some sort of weapon in episode three. When they blow up that derelict the Reavers had taken. So they're not pure carriers.

I'm sure they have guns, but I doubt it's their primary purpose and I doubt they have guns much bigger than the Operative's fleet, which included some pretty big ones themselves.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'll have to watch the scene again, but I think it fired what looked like some sort of green energy bolt, two-four shots (I don't recall the number, it was multiple but not very many), which were sufficient to destroy (but not instantly vaporize) a civilian passenger transport considerably larger than Serenity. Sorry that I can't be more precise at the moment.

[Q99]

Pretty much, still gonna just glance off any Wars ships with shields of significance. Something of a threat to fighters, maybe, but a Corvette could brush those off.

[Adam Reynolds]

On the issue of speed, the Firefly wiki indicates that it is as low as 5.5 Gs of acceleration. Which is actually slower than even The Expanse, at least in terms of peak if not sustained speed. Though the speed shown in the pilot episode is far faster than this, going from atmospheric to orbit in around three minutes, which would require an acceleration greater than ten times this listed figure, in the range of 50+Gs. It is still slower than similar feats for Star Wars vessels, which can do the same in well under a minute, likely exceeding 1000Gs.

It is also possible that the slower speed is the common interplanetary speed, with the higher speeds only observed with the jump to orbit. I should also note that this was an extreme case in which they were fleeing a pursuit, so it is possible that it is not indicative of more commonly used speeds.

In terms of fleet numbers, I think the implication in Serenity was that the Operative sent a fairly significant fleet to catch Mal and company, so I suspect that even the Rebel Alliance fleet at Endor could probably outnumber them. I believe it was stated to be "every ship in the quadrant," as meaningless as that is for a solar system.

As for firepower I am hitting a dead end. Though I should note that based on the space battle in Serenity, most ships appeared to be something of a glass cannon, without much in the way of shields or even armor. Which already puts them at a massive disadvantage against heavily armored and shielded SW warships. Especially if one uses power output based on engine output as a proxy for firepower.

Now that I think about it, Firefly is one of those settings that I haven't ever really thought about in a versus context or even all that much in terms of objective numbers. Probably because they don't do very well.

[Q99]

In terms of fleet numbers, I think the implication in Serenity was that the Operative sent a fairly significant fleet to catch Mal and company, so I suspect that even the Rebel Alliance fleet at Endor could probably outnumber them. I believe it was stated to be "every ship in the quadrant," as meaningless as that is for a solar system.

Well, solar systems can still be cut up into fourths.

Now that I think about it, Firefly is one of those settings that I haven't ever really thought about in a versus context or even all that much in terms of objective numbers. Probably because they don't do very well.

Yea, limited evidence, and what we have doesn't speak too much of it.

Something like a Babylon 5 earthforce ship would probably be a behemoth that'd be incredibly hard to stop to them.

[The Romulan Republic]

On the issue of speed, the Firefly wiki indicates that it is as low as 5.5 Gs of acceleration. Which is actually slower than even The Expanse, at least in terms of peak if not sustained speed. Though the speed shown in the pilot episode is far faster than this, going from atmospheric to orbit in around three minutes, which would require an acceleration greater than ten times this listed figure, in the range of 50+Gs. It is still slower than similar feats for Star Wars vessels, which can do the same in well under a minute, likely exceeding 1000Gs.

Does the wiki provide a source? And if so, is it a canon source?

I would also note that Serenity herself is an older model of vessel, and likely has a lower top speed than top of the line Alliance warships.

It is also possible that the slower speed is the common interplanetary speed, with the higher speeds only observed with the jump to orbit. I should also note that this was an extreme case in which they were fleeing a pursuit, so it is possible that it is not indicative of more commonly used speeds.

This seems a reasonable way of reconciling the contradictions.

In terms of fleet numbers, I think the implication in Serenity was that the Operative sent a fairly significant fleet to catch Mal and company, so I suspect that even the Rebel Alliance fleet at Endor could probably outnumber them. I believe it was stated to be "every ship in the quadrant," as meaningless as that is for a solar system.

Significant, yes, but the biggest ships were absent, and like you said, "quadrant" doesn't mean much.

Perhaps its analogous to sending a destroyer squadron to deal with some pirates, as opposed to sending a carrier group like you would against a major power.

As for firepower I am hitting a dead end. Though I should note that based on the space battle in Serenity, most ships appeared to be something of a glass cannon, without much in the way of shields or even armor. Which already puts them at a massive disadvantage against heavily armored and shielded SW warships. Especially if one uses power output based on engine output as a proxy for firepower.

I don't think engine power is a very reliable way of gauging firepower, particularly when you're dealing with vessels that fire physical missiles/other projectiles (which some of the vessels the Operative commanded appeared to). After all, one can scarcely determine the firepower of a B-52 full of nuclear bombs by its engine power.

Now that I think about it, Firefly is one of those settings that I haven't ever really thought about in a versus context or even all that much in terms of objective numbers. Probably because they don't do very well.

In space, they're fairly low level, but I think they'd likely fair a bit better on the ground.

[Q99]

Oh yea, that laser pistol was pretty nice.

[Elheru Aran]

As for firepower I am hitting a dead end. Though I should note that based on the space battle in Serenity, most ships appeared to be something of a glass cannon, without much in the way of shields or even armor. Which already puts them at a massive disadvantage against heavily armored and shielded SW warships. Especially if one uses power output based on engine output as a proxy for firepower.

I don't think engine power is a very reliable way of gauging firepower, particularly when you're dealing with vessels that fire physical missiles/other projectiles (which some of the vessels the Operative commanded appeared to). After all, one can scarcely determine the firepower of a B-52 full of nuclear bombs by its engine power.

For aircraft, no (though you could extrapolate the amount of cargo/bombs that the plane is expected to carry, and from that conjecture a tonnage of TNT or a weight of nuclear bombs). For spaceships using energy weapons, it's a little more reasonable to use engine power as it's directly relevant to how much energy they can output, whether it's through a muzzle or an engine bell.

Point taken that it's less useful with missiles and projectiles, though. Which is another point *against* Firefly-verse: they don't appear to have very much in the way of energy weapons at all, and those projectile/missile weapons they have on hand aren't particularly impressive. They still use gunpowder (or some analogue thereof) weapons for ground combat, after all...

[Q99]

The Browncoats use guns from what we've seen.

We've also seen alliance laser pistols and those shockwave guns the guards used. The lasers seem high-end weapons that even the alliance couldn't afford to give everyone, but still.

[Elheru Aran]

The Browncoats use guns from what we've seen.

We've also seen alliance laser pistols and those shockwave guns the guards used. The lasers seem high-end weapons that even the alliance couldn't afford to give everyone, but still.

Right. It seems that weapons beyond standard firearms are rare and expensive, and in the case of that one laser pistol we saw, broke down after a few shots (experimental technology?). There's one laser gun described as "the first" in the collection of an Alliance nob, but that's about it.

Admittedly, a few episodes and one movie largely showing fringe worlds and sketchy characters rather than a broader picture of the Firefly 'verse isn't going to tell us very much. But I feel fairly confident in saying that, as far as firearms technology goes, they aren't much more than a generation or two above what modern Earth has. They definitely aren't on the level of blasters, lightsabers, and all the other cool toys the Empire has.

[Q99]

Right. It seems that weapons beyond standard firearms are rare and expensive, and in the case of that one laser pistol we saw, broke down after a few shots (experimental technology?). There's one laser gun described as "the first" in the collection of an Alliance nob, but that's about it.

I think that was a power cell issue- it seems like it'd normally operate on a short supply line and have reloads available.

Admittedly, a few episodes and one movie largely showing fringe worlds and sketchy characters rather than a broader picture of the Firefly 'verse isn't going to tell us very much. But I feel fairly confident in saying that, as far as firearms technology goes, they aren't much more than a generation or two above what modern Earth has. They definitely aren't on the level of blasters, lightsabers, and all the other cool toys the Empire has.

It's not like blasters are all that devastating! Well, not normal ones at least, stuff like bowcasters are pretty powerful.

I'd rather face a blaster than one of those laser guns, for sure.

[Simon_Jester]

I think the big problem boils down to "how many stormtroopers is it going to take to keep everyone pinned down?" The outlying worlds present a problem very familiar to the Empire and are lightly populated enough that they won't present undue problems. But typically, occupying armies need at least something within shouting distance of one soldier per 100-1000 citizens to maintain anything like control of the populace- and a 1:1000 ratio would obviously depend on having local allies doing most of the actual enforcement work for you.

So on a frontier planet with a few little settlements totalling a few tens of thousands of people? No problem; one battalion of infantry is probably enough. But to occupy big planets whose government doesn't want to cooperate? That's a trickier problem, and arguably the single greatest long-term cost of the campaign.

The alternative is to adopt the Mongol strategy and threaten massive indiscriminate bombardment of any planet or region that does not comply with Imperial demands. However, this normally only works well if the Imperial demands in question are relatively light, and if compliance can be verified easily without having boots on the ground.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Browncoats use guns from what we've seen.

We've also seen alliance laser pistols and those shockwave guns the guards used. The lasers seem high-end weapons that even the alliance couldn't afford to give everyone, but still.

Right. It seems that weapons beyond standard firearms are rare and expensive, and in the case of that one laser pistol we saw, broke down after a few shots (experimental technology?). There's one laser gun described as "the first" in the collection of an Alliance nob, but that's about it.

Admittedly, a few episodes and one movie largely showing fringe worlds and sketchy characters rather than a broader picture of the Firefly 'verse isn't going to tell us very much. But I feel fairly confident in saying that, as far as firearms technology goes, they aren't much more than a generation or two above what modern Earth has. They definitely aren't on the level of blasters, lightsabers, and all the other cool toys the Empire has.

Where they do better than a lot of SF militaries (especially Star Trek, but their are others that come to mind) is that they have a more fleshed-out force, at least from the few glimpses we see of the war. Not only do their ground troops routinely wear body armour, but they have a fuller range of support, including armoured vehicles, artillery, and air support.

Admittedly, Star Wars has all this too. But again, the question is not "who would win an all-out war" (which has a very obvious answer), but "what kind of force/methods would be necessary for a Star Wars faction to do it?

If I wanted competitive match-ups, I'd do one on one fights or something. Small scale. Mal vs. Han (that one was discussed, as I recall, in an earlier Firefly thread of mine). River vs. a Jedi, or River vs. a squad of stormtroopers. That sort of thing.

But yeah, for personal firearms, "a generation or two ahead" seems about right. My guess is that the destruction of Earth that was and the difficult emigration to another system slowed down development of weapons technology somewhat, with the priority for R and D being more on stuff like propulsion, life support, and terraforming.

[Batman]

Or maybe firearms as already available were adequate for incapacitating humans, which IS their primary purpose, so they thought 'this already works, let's concentrate R&D on stuff we need to work on?'

[Stewart M]

I can think of another alternative. It's far from the Empire's usual style, but that might be because it's the sort of opportunity that wouldn't come along often. Done correctly, it might be cheapest in the long run (though the Empire shows an aggressive indifference to opportunity cost).

Technological And Narcotic Imperialism

In the Firefly System (or whatever it's officially called), life for the typical outer colonist resembles the 1800s. Elites and many in the inner worlds live a relatively mild sci-fi future. They are nowhere near post-scarcity. Interplanetary travel is measured in days or weeks. Surgery at even advanced clinics is invasive and prone to errors. Trade along many space routes is plagued by pirates, extortionists, and actual plagues. The economy is so broken, even well-traveled spacefarers see fresh fruit as a precious luxury, implying that it's expensive everywhere.*

Now take the Galactic Empire. Curiously, it suffers many of the same conditions, but it's so darn large that it doesn't matter. If the Empire wanted to, it could spend 0.0001% of its wealth and buy the System's whole GDP.

Imagine, some bored imperial moff grants his favorite megacorp a license to form the East Firefly Company, with a mission to control the Firefly System by any means necessary. They can keep whatever profit they make for 15 years, then sovereignty is handed over to the Emperor directly. Our friendly moff offers to let the EFC borrow a squadron of patrol-grade warships and a few companies of stormtroopers, but if they want anything else from the imperial military catalogue, they have to buy it. The EFC is patient but profit-minded. They want to control the System with minimal cost or struggle. What do they do?

First, the EFC sends in some recon droids to scan the System and find a nice remote asteroid to set up their HQ. Presumably, once navigation charts have been mapped, the Empire could send ships to any Rim world directly from hyperspace, but it's helpful to have a local site leading the operation. This thread has established that the Firefly authorities cannot track every space object at all times, otherwise smuggling wouldn't be common. Indeed, they have trouble tracking everyone around a single planet in the Rim worlds. With the Galactic Empire's advanced starships, traveling unseen in obscure corners of the Firefly System should be a piece of cake. Any unlucky surveyor who crosses their path can be blasted (distress calls are gravely unreliable).

Once HQ is set up, the same language and culture programs used in protocol droids are used to listen into interplanetary radio broadcasts. It is quickly discovered that local English is almost identical to Galactic Basic, which is convenient. The EFC asks their friends in Imperial Intelligence and the Hutt Syndicates to recruit a crew of spies, con artists, pirates, smugglers, and other rogues. These rogues are sent recon missions. Obviously, they don't arrive on imperial ships. This easiest cover would be to hijack lonely freighters. That would give the operatives local ships, local clothes, local cash, and local locals to interrogate. These rogues spend a year digging into society, and by the end they have a good working knowledge of the System's recent history and functions - its laws, its customs, its economy, its power structures, etc.

The Galactic Empire has many thousands of worlds with unique biospheres and countless sentient races cultivating them. Ergo, they should have hundreds and hundreds of mind-altering drugs. We already know several, most famously spice. Many of these drugs are illegal. If the EFC can get permission to take impounded drugs that imperial forces were going to destroy anyway, they should get hundreds of thousands of tons of drugs for free, only paying the cost of shipping. Perhaps they can get this permission if they argue that they won't be selling in Imperial space and will use the drugs as a tool of conquest. Even if the EFC can't get permission to traffic illegal drugs, there are plenty of legal recreational drugs available in Star Wars, they're just more expensive. Still the amount required is probably less expensive than a fleet of star destroyers. These drugs should be picked to have dangerous withdraw symptoms, or engineered to have them if necessary.

Once a few million doses of mind-blowing drugs have been transported into the System, our network of rogues begins to distribute them among the most lawless Rim spaceports. We know in Firefly that people like drugs just as much as their Earth ancestors. Given the System's grave inequality, libertarian attitudes, and miserable post-war lives, the demand for drugs should be brisk. And these drugs will offer highs completely unknown before. If the first fifty aren't popular with a demographic, test another fifty. Demand in religious communities may be weak, but marketing might solve that. The System shouldn't be able to synthesize any of the drugs themselves (even the Star Wars galaxy can't synthesize spice, otherwise they wouldn't mine it).

If the cops try to stop the drug trade, their efforts should be easy to avoid knowing the Rim's general lawlessness and the Empire's superior propulsion, communication, and scanning tech. If the EFC needs startup funds, Imperial technology should be enough to counterfeit cash and legal documents. Gradually, the EFC's drug cartel will expand and make some serious profits. It's worth noting that if the EFC can negotiate with their rogues so they work on commission, the company won't even have to pay for labor; the operatives will just take a cut out of the drug trade. If the EFC needs to show a revenue in imperial credits at this point, they can use their drug or counterfeit cash to buy Firefly System commodities and sell them in Imperial markets. The System must have some minerals or crops the Empire wants, or why conquer them?

Regardless, the majority of the profits will go to controlling sources of influence: sheriffs, customs agents, newspapers, gangs, preachers, etc. Between bribes and chemical dependencies, the EFC begins to subvert the sinews of Rim society to its own purposes - namely, to protect its market and push inward to the core worlds.

Obviously, the best targets for subversion are the rich and powerful: mayors, military officers, bankers, federal investigators, and legislators. But they tend to be the most resilient to manipulation. if typical methods don't work, another option is to start a black market for high-end consumer products like bacta. Inner World doctors are good, but they aren't bacta. Some people don't need bribes or recreational drugs, but everyone needs health. This is how Dr. House got away with being terrible to everyone. Discreetly convince the powerful and desperate that you have the only means of keeping their loved ones alive, and many will do whatever you ask.

After ten years of expansion, the EFC ought to have much of the Rim's much vulnerable population addicted and a growing customer base in the huge Inner World cities.** At this point, they essentially have an off-switch to the Firefly civilization. As the only supplier, they can choose to stop the flow of drugs at will. Hundreds of millions of addicts would suffer withdraw all at once. It would send the System into a state of emergency. At this point, the EFC has several options. The conventional Imperial invasion from earlier in this thread can commence, made much easier by internal strife and a vast fifth column already established. Or they can reveal themselves and try to hold the System for ransom. That might work.

Alternatively, I think someone mentioned reigniting the Unification War. That should be easy. The Alliance clearly do a terrible job of winning hearts and minds. One obvious step would be to slip cheap defensive weapons to the Browncoats (think sending AK-47s back in time 100 years). A good place to start would be the cheapest model of those ground-based ion canons the rebels had at Hoth. If the EFC bought the parts and gave them to key planets, those planets would become almost Aliance-proof. Better, since the size of the weapon is inherently defensive, on the extreme off-chance that the locals can reverse-engineer it, the weapon wouldn't help any faction conquer and unify the System. On the contrary, its proliferation would cause the System to Balkanize, with each protected planet turning into a petty kingdom that doesn't need help to stop invasions.

As the Alliance slogged through this new, painful war and struggled with its drug epidemic, it would grow increasingly totalitarian (which is saying something). Martial law, concentration camps, mass conscription, high taxes. It doesn't take a genius to see that this is essentially the Galactic Empire. They even shop at the same space-fascist outfitters. Now, if the EFC has managed to infiltrate to the highest rungs of power, they can stage a quiet coup and take over the Alliance without any public acknowledgement that the Empire even exists.


*Admittedly, there are many possible reasons for this; I'm not going to explore the point right now.

**Ideally, the whole plan should be possible without any military force, but I can imagine scenarios where a hostile militia may obstruct EFC efforts on a key world and no other motivation seems to work. At first, the EFC cartel would try to hire local mercenaries. Failing that, they would bring mercenaries from the Empire and arm them with local gear. And failing that, they would finally call in a few hundred stormtroopers with orbital support for a surgical assault. That should remove any resistance short of an actual Alliance garrison, but it would leave awkward evidence.

[Q99]

Hey, the smallest force who could take over?

I'd put money on two sith ^^

More politics than direct occupation, granted, but that's because it's a matter of taking over existing forces and putting themselves at the top of the chain of command.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hell, one Sith, if its Palpatine or possibly Dooku (I think Maul and Vader might be a bit too blunt for the necessary subterfuge and politicking).