Firefly vs. Star Wars scenario- The Brown Coats get Jedi help.

[The Romulan Republic]

Inspired by a tangent that occurred to me in my other Star Wars vs. Firefly thread.

A few months after the start of the war between the Alliance and the Brown Coats, the Brown Coat leadership is visited by a mysterious man in brown robes. He identifies himself as Jedi General Obi-wan Kenobi, representing the Galactic Senate. He informs the Brown Coat leaders that beyond their single system lies a vast Galactic Republic, which is currently in the midst of the Clone Wars. To verify this, he demonstrates his skill with telekinesis, and shows them his lightsaber- an unfamiliar piece of advanced technology.

He then informs them that their system lies along a strategically important hyperspace route, but that the Alliance has refused both Republic and Separatist overtures, not wanting to lose its control over the system. The Republic is therefore willing to negotiate with the Brown Coats, to offer the services of the Jedi as mediators in the conflict and, failing that, to provide support for their rebellion. With the Grand Army of the Republic stretched thin, Clone forces cannot be spared unless the Separatists openly intervene in the conflict. Instead, a trio of Republic Jedi have been dispatched to provide covert support- General Kenobi, his former apprentice General Skywalker, and Skywalker's padawan, Ashoka Tano.

Their objectives:

a) Mediate a successful end to the conflict or, failing that, secure independence for the Brown Coat worlds.

b) Negotiate formal relations between either the Alliance or the Brown Coats and the Galactic Republic, including the right for Republic ships to use the system as a port/base of operations in the Sector.

How do the Brown Coats fair with three Jedi on their side? The Jedi have their star fighters, astromech. droids (including R2), lightsabers and other standard equipment, and Anakin's freighter from The Clone Wars, the Twilight. The GAR will provide an extraction for Kenobi and company if the mission goes very badly, but no further Republic intervention will occur unless the Separatists commit large-scale forces.

[TheFeniX]

I've only seen Serenity. Based on the performance of the ships, wouldn't one Jedi Starfighter be a match for a nearly infinite number of Alliance ships until it just ran out of fuel? Especially when piloted by someone like Skywalker? Sending Skywalker to cripple one or two of the heaviest cruisers would send a message: "Our scout ships can take out your heaviest cruisers with zero issue: start negotiating." How big was the Unification War? I see little direct info.

Them being uber-badasses able to slice through hordes of normal people is just kind of a bonus.

[FaxModem1]

I imagine Obi Wan doing a fake surrender to Alliance military personnel as he did in the Clone Wars movie, using it as a ruse to merely buy time until his position was advantageous. So, the Browncoats will have a Jedi on their side who isn't above using dirty tactics to get what he wants. Imagine Obi Wan surrendering to the Alliance Parliament, only to then put lightsabers to their throats to get a peace treaty along his desires.

[The Romulan Republic]

I've only seen Serenity. Based on the performance of the ships, wouldn't one Jedi Starfighter be a match for a nearly infinite number of Alliance ships until it just ran out of fuel? Especially when piloted by someone like Skywalker? Sending Skywalker to cripple one or two of the heaviest cruisers would send a message: "Our scout ships can take out your heaviest cruisers with zero issue: start negotiating." How big was the Unification War? I see little direct info.

Them being uber-badasses able to slice through hordes of normal people is just kind of a bonus.

Oh, sure, they could trash a ship one-on-one. But the goal is to negotiate a settlement that will be advantageous to the Republic, ideally without having to commit a lot of troops to hold a system that only grudgingly submitted. Hence working with local allies/proxies.

As to the war: you wouldn't know much about it if your only source is the movie, but they show parts of a couple of battles via flashback (including Mal's defining experiences in the Battle of Serenity Valley, which is the opening scene of the show), and hear some war stories, during the series. It definitely gives the vibe of a brutal war of attrition on contested planets (with Mal's forces holding out against a siege in Serenity Valley before finally succumbing when the promised air support didn't arrive) and numerous war crimes on both sides. An Alliance officer in the show mentions Brown Coat torture, and I believe their are also references to biological warfare and explosives being concealed inside fruit so that when someone bit into it, they got their head blown off.

I've also read that Mal's home world was basically depopulated by the Alliance, though I don't think its mentioned in the show- maybe its from the comics? The series' theme song also contains what could be a reference to almost Base Delta Zero-level orbital bombardment- "Burn the land and boil the sea".

Military forces appear quite diverse and well-equipped compared to a lot of TV SF like Star Trek, with the glimpses we get showing armoured vehicles, air craft, anti-aircraft guns, infantry with body armour and rifles, and grenades. I believe the use of trench warfare is referenced as well.

As of Serenity, of course, they've done experiments in psychic assassins, but I doubt that's applicable to this time period, or if it is, the experiments probably hadn't progressed very far. Certainly they're unlikely to have anything that can match a Jedi one-on-one.

Of course, if you've seen the movie, you also know about the Alliance's penchant for experimenting with mass mind control.

I imagine Obi Wan doing a fake surrender to Alliance military personnel as he did in the Clone Wars movie, using it as a ruse to merely buy time until his position was advantageous. So, the Browncoats will have a Jedi on their side who isn't above using dirty tactics to get what he wants. Imagine Obi Wan surrendering to the Alliance Parliament, only to then put lightsabers to their throats to get a peace treaty along his desires.

Actually, in the old Clone Wars shorts (no longer canon), Obi-wan personally stormed the government HQ on a planet the Republic was invading, along with a small contingent of Clone commandoes, and basically did demand their surrender at lightsaber point.

[The Romulan Republic]

It should also be noted that while the Brown Coats seem to have largely collapsed after their defeat at Serenity Valley, the Alliance's control of the outer worlds is portrayed as very weak in both the series and the film- the outer worlds are largely poor, not heavily populated, but poorly-defended and crime-ridden, and the Alliance is forced to hire mercs/private security to maintain order due to lack of manpower. Their control is only really iron-clad in the core.

[TheFeniX]

I've always wondered about that: Jedi aren't Paladins, but they don't seem keen on killing people who can't fight back. Though they definitely will ACT like they will and Obi-Wan didn't do more than just give Anakin a look when he threatened to kill Zam. Like, say they got to the Neimodians (sp) in EP1 and they didn't surrender and called in droids to save them. What do the Jedi do?

Oh, sure, they could trash a ship one-on-one. But the goal is to negotiate a settlement that will be advantageous to the Republic, ideally without having to commit a lot of troops to hold a system that only grudgingly submitted. Hence working with local allies/proxies.

Yea. That plan is "See what this one ship did? We'll send one with a million times it's volume and firepower if you don't start talking." Isn't Firefly in a single-star system? This isn't so much negotiating as "even if you call my bluff, my hand is still a straight flush and you've got deuce-high."

If a display of overwhelming technological superiority doesn't get the Alliance to the table, much less fold quickly: there's no point in further negotiation. You will be fighting them. You could easily destroy not only every warship, but also their capability to manufacture them, without fear of retaliation. Once reduced to only cargo and passenger ships: you're got your hyperspace lane.

Once that's done, provided you trust them and you didn't blow up ALL the warships, the Browncoats could be put into a position as overseers. They themselves being overseen by a few Republic Ambassadors.

Even on the ground, 3 Jedi are overkill. Obi-Wan stupidly jumped into a group of "people" who knew what he was and had technological parity and he not only survived this but also killed his target (Grievous). Yea, yea. Loads of plot armor there (and a lot of other places), but it's still impressive.

However, to quote a wise-man: "I cannot fight a war for you." It's still just 3 Jedi, who would likely be of much more use blockading or attacking whatever is needed in their near-invincible ships that can appear almost anywhere instantly.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah. Jedi aren't an invasion force or an occupation force- Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones made that very clear. What they are is the very best their galaxy has to offer in ambassadors, or special forces, as the circumstances dictate.

Edit: Though really, I would question weather three Jedi star fighters and a small, run-down freighter would cut it for taking out the Alliance space fleet, at least if they were manned by anyone less impressive than Jedi. Even in the old EU, we'd be talking kiloton-level weaponry max. for Jedi star fighters, and they're vulnerable to such weaponry as well. In the new canon, where star fighter guns and missiles actually seem weaker... who knows?

[Esquire]

I've also read that Mal's home world was basically depopulated by the Alliance, though I don't think its mentioned in the show- maybe its from the comics? The series' theme song also contains what could be a reference to almost Base Delta Zero-level orbital bombardment- "Burn the land and boil the sea".

I'd always assumed that was to do with the reason humanity ended up in the Verse - runaway global warming, massive nuclear exchanges, either/both; whatever. I'm not familiar with any actual BDZ-esque operations, though even if they'd occurred that wouldn't necessarily make the Alliance a peer competitor to the Galactic Empire: what makes BDZs so impressive isn't the depopulation effects (which we could probably accomplish now, given enough resources and twenty years to attach a rocket to a suitably-large asteroid), it's the speed and absolutely minuscule relative commitment of effort required for the GE to literally melt the crust off a planet.

If I were the Jedi, I'd bring along a single Venator or something; a proper warship won't stretch Republic supply lines to any real degree, but would go a long way towards proving their claims to skeptical onlookers.

[Q99]

I've also read that Mal's home world was basically depopulated by the Alliance, though I don't think its mentioned in the show- maybe its from the comics? The series' theme song also contains what could be a reference to almost Base Delta Zero-level orbital bombardment- "Burn the land and boil the sea".

Iirc it was in the roleplaying game.

[The Romulan Republic]

I've also read that Mal's home world was basically depopulated by the Alliance, though I don't think its mentioned in the show- maybe its from the comics? The series' theme song also contains what could be a reference to almost Base Delta Zero-level orbital bombardment- "Burn the land and boil the sea".

I'd always assumed that was to do with the reason humanity ended up in the Verse - runaway global warming, massive nuclear exchanges, either/both; whatever. I'm not familiar with any actual BDZ-esque operations, though even if they'd occurred that wouldn't necessarily make the Alliance a peer competitor to the Galactic Empire: what makes BDZs so impressive isn't the depopulation effects (which we could probably accomplish now, given enough resources and twenty years to attach a rocket to a suitably-large asteroid), it's the speed and absolutely minuscule relative commitment of effort required for the GE to literally melt the crust off a planet.

If I were the Jedi, I'd bring along a single Venator or something; a proper warship won't stretch Republic supply lines to any real degree, but would go a long way towards proving their claims to skeptical onlookers.

From the introductory scene of Serenity admittedly of dubious reliability since its essentially Alliance propaganda in-universe, it looks as though the Earth was abandoned due to a combination of resource depletion and nuclear war (perhaps fought over the increasingly scarce resources).

[TheFeniX]

Yeah. Jedi aren't an invasion force or an occupation force- Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones made that very clear. What they are is the very best their galaxy has to offer in ambassadors, or special forces, as the circumstances dictate.

True, but the Jedi seem to have become lazy in EP1, relying on their "no one fucks with the Jedi" mantra. Once the reigns are dropped and Jin has to go all rogue, he seems really cavalier about a few things. I know he's mentioned as a loose cannon, but it's not like the council really was trying to reign him in. If anything, the guy was MORE useful not sitting on the council.

That said, their abilities and general "luck" get them by mostly fine. Ashoka can't blend, but Kenobi and Skywalker could do significant work as infiltrators if they get on the right planet. And since this is one system, there's not a whole lot of planets they need to sow chaos on. And Jedi, judging from the Clone Wars, somehow always end up in the perfect position to do the most damage or win by luck.

I'm sorry: "The Force." Said "The Force" being the Star Wars equivalent of "a wizard did it."

Edit: Though really, I would question weather three Jedi star fighters and a small, run-down freighter would cut it for taking out the Alliance space fleet, at least if they were manned by anyone less impressive than Jedi. Even in the old EU, we'd be talking kiloton-level weaponry max. for Jedi star fighters, and they're vulnerable to such weaponry as well. In the new canon, where star fighter guns and missiles actually seem weaker... who knows?

Yea, I don't know much about the new canon and I've also wondered if (aside from inhuman reaction times) Jedi do so well in space combat because The Force is immune to the insane amounts of ECM that they deal with. But Firefly cap ships seem to rely mostly on ballistic projectiles and missiles. I did see what looked like 1 or 2 ships firing some kind of rapid fire energy weapon. Still, their ships don't look all that sturdy and I've never seen mention of shielding.

When hook spears and ramming actions from the reavers are taking out cap ships, I have to wonder how effective one Jedi Starfighter, which would be tough as nails to even hit and can lay said kiloton level firepower at unshielded ships, would be.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't recall any capital ships going down to the Reaver's spear guns and grappling hooks, though you may be correct.

Collisions, yeah. Due to the point blank nature of the battle, though that's probably a very atypical situation due to the ambush Mal lured them into. But even Star Wars ships are vulnerable to collisions from other warships (see the Battle of Scarif and the Battle of Endor).

We also saw some sort of EMP beam or something, which was used to shoot Serenity herself by a pursuing Reaver ship.

[Q99]

True, but the Jedi seem to have become lazy in EP1, relying on their "no one fucks with the Jedi" mantra. Once the reigns are dropped and Jin has to go all rogue, he seems really cavalier about a few things. I know he's mentioned as a loose cannon, but it's not like the council really was trying to reign him in. If anything, the guy was MORE useful not sitting on the council.

That said, their abilities and general "luck" get them by mostly fine. Ashoka can't blend, but Kenobi and Skywalker could do significant work as infiltrators if they get on the right planet. And since this is one system, there's not a whole lot of planets they need to sow chaos on. And Jedi, judging from the Clone Wars, somehow always end up in the perfect position to do the most damage or win by luck.

I'm sorry: "The Force." Said "The Force" being the Star Wars equivalent of "a wizard did it."

Precognition is a very, very useful ability for both being at the right place at the right time, and feeling like you've got things covered.

[TheFeniX]

I don't recall any capital ships going down to the Reaver's spear guns and grappling hooks, though you may be correct.

I got two separate thoughts mixed up. A spear gun grabs what looks like a small cruiser which starts some kind of comical bolo effect as both ships spin around each other. That line must be made of dimondium or something. But actually, that IS pretty damn impressive on a couple fronts. One: that the hull supporting the hook didn't cave from the stress and that said hook/spear shot at that speed was made of a material that could pierce something that hard. Though, the ship latticework could be made of something with high-durability while the hull itself is relatively weak. I can't recall how wide those grappling hooks spread when they pierce the hull (or if they even do so).

Collisions, yeah. Due to the point blank nature of the battle, though that's probably a very atypical situation due to the ambush Mal lured them into. But even Star Wars ships are vulnerable to collisions from other warships (see the Battle of Scarif and the Battle of Endor).

Granted, but they're a bit more resilient considering you can cut one in half and still land it. Serenity ships seem to light up like Roman candles after a major collision.

The crashed SSD in Force Awakens was in super-good shape considering what happens to most objects that crash. While that doesn't apply directly to smaller fighters, their engineering abilities when it comes to durable materials are way above that of Firefly. Plus shields.

And point blank range fighting is where you'd want to stay against large ships when you're the little guy. Also, with the insanity of Han Solo able to make the pinpoint hyperspace exit he did in Force Awakens, battle might not even be a good course of action if we grant a solid hit would knock out a Jedi Startfighter. The ability to ambush and get out before your enemy even knows what happened is pretty useful.

But really, the Alliance would have to understand that the one reason they aren't being squashed like bug by a power that is, likely, losing more soldiers in one battle than they have total population, is because they are currently fighting a galactic war. I don't know the kind of information control they have, but a few Jedi sneaking around talking with the right people because, from reading, the Alliance is controlled behind the scenes by corporations (a bit on the nose, but whatever) and backing 1-2 of them to throw some support at the browncoats in exchange for moving their control more toward the front seems like a win-win for an already "controlled by the corporations" Galactic Republic.

We also saw some sort of EMP beam or something, which was used to shoot Serenity herself by a pursuing Reaver ship.

Yea, I forgot about that. The video I found to rewatch the space-battle cut out right as it fired.

Precognition is a very, very useful ability for both being at the right place at the right time, and feeling like you've got things covered.

There's kind of a point where it becomes plot armor though. Obi-Wan really knew the droids wouldn't just open fire on him the second he landed behind Grievous? Or that Grievous (a known coward who despises a fair fight) would agree to a one-on-one duel even for as short a time as he did, this giving time for the clones to show up? I get the whole "give yourself over to the Force and ride the wave" shtick, but there's a limit even for me.

The Hyperdrive leaks Hyperdrive fluid, leading Qui-Gon (and the Star War franchise ONCE AGAIN) to Tatoonie to find the future destroyer of the Jedi. I mean, I obviously enjoy the Hell out of Star Wars, but calling "luck" by another name is still the same as "A wizard did it."

[The Romulan Republic]

Force precognition is highly inconsistent. It sure didn't help the Jedi see Order 66 coming in time, and it didn't stop Palpatine from plunging down a shaft at the hands of his own enforcer. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It can canonically be clouded by the Dark Side, and its effectiveness depends on the state of mind of the user as well. Even Yoda, a Jedi Master with 900 years of experience in using the Force and exceptional strength in it, said that its difficult to predict the future.

[Cykeisme]

Force precognition is highly inconsistent. It sure didn't help the Jedi see Order 66 coming in time, and it didn't stop Palpatine from plunging down a shaft at the hands of his own enforcer. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It can canonically be clouded by the Dark Side, and its effectiveness depends on the state of mind of the user as well. Even Yoda, a Jedi Master with 900 years of experience in using the Force and exceptional strength in it, said that its difficult to predict the future.

I think all the times that it doesn't work are just as significant as the times that it does.

That is to say: the Force seems to be carefully doling out precognitive flashes and visions to particular people at particular times (and refraining from doing so at other times), specifically to push things along in a manner it sees fit. Or, perhaps, in a manner that tickles its sense of humor.

I recall a line in one of the novelizations ("G-Canon" back in the time it meant something), that stated that the majority Jedi view is to deliberately allow themselves to become instruments of the "Will of the Force".
However, the minority view espoused by some Jedi (especially Qui-Gon, if I remember right) is that the majority are silly, and stating that there is a "will of the Force" is like a primitive man who does not understand gravity and topography stating that "it is the will of a river to flow to the sea." Or, put another way, no one really understands anything, and everyone's just mucking about.


Edit:
Anyway, to get back on topic, it seems to serve the Jedi well when the opposition doesn't consist of individuals (or events) that were themselves put into motion by a powerful Force-user.
Tenuous and vague, sure, but if you accept my patchy analysis of the narrative theme as being generally indicative of the in-universe behavior of the Force, then it will indeed function properly, aiding the Jedi in carrying out their endeavor within this crossover star system.

[Adam Reynolds]

My question here is whether River is Force sensitive? While she only shows precog and mind reading, she also lacks any real training. The Ahsoka novel indicates that Force sensitive children tend to show extreme focus on a single skill, in contrast to fully trained Jedi that are well rounded. This is largely consistent with what River shows.

Force precognition is highly inconsistent. It sure didn't help the Jedi see Order 66 coming in time, and it didn't stop Palpatine from plunging down a shaft at the hands of his own enforcer. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It can canonically be clouded by the Dark Side, and its effectiveness depends on the state of mind of the user as well. Even Yoda, a Jedi Master with 900 years of experience in using the Force and exceptional strength in it, said that its difficult to predict the future.

My theory is that it is based upon the overall level of darkness or light. Jedi have a hard time seeing in times when the galaxy is becoming darker, as occurred during the Clone Wars and the early days of the Empire. As the inverse, Sith have a hard time seeing when things are becoming lighter, as occured to a minor extent during ANH and to a much greater extent in ROTJ. The problem is that they both fail to realize when their powers are slipping.

[The Romulan Republic]

Neither River's abilities, nor the methods in which she acquired them, are consistent with Force-sensitivity. Non-Force sensitive psychics are a thing in Star Wars as I recall, or at least they were in the old EU. I would place River in that category.

As to inconsistency in the Force, I don't think it can be attributed to just the strength of the Light and Dark Side. Its too inconsistent for even that to fit very easily, I think. And we do know other things that can affect the use of the Force- namely, the mental/emotional state of the user.

I may be beating a dead horse at this point, but I've long maintained that that's how Rey was able to beat Kylo Ren in The Force Awakens, at least in part. He is a very conflicted person who doubts himself, and as Yoda put it "That is why you fail."

[The Romulan Republic]

Another point that just occurred to me again, reading back through the thread, and particularly the discussion on ship combat:

We see/hear some indications of fairly powerful ship-to-ship weaponry in Firefly/Serenity, but their is a notable absence of energy shields (which probably helps explain why the Alliance and Reavers lost so many ships so quickly in the film's closing battle). Given this, their best defence would be either shooting down incoming missiles (since they seem to rely primarily on solid physical weapons rather than beams), or evasion.

Thus, the point-blank range engagement seen in the film would, logically, probably be pretty much a worst-case scenario for them. Which underscores both how atypical a situation it likely was, and how clever (and ruthless) Mal's plan actually was, since he suckered both hostile fleets into an engagement on terms that would pretty much guarantee maximum casualties. I'd also say it proved the Operative's incompetence, if not for the fact that a) he was himself trying to lay an ambush for Mal, b) he had no reason to believe that a hostile fleet was inbound, and c) its likely that his experience is primarily in special forces/espionage, not fleet command.

It also makes it hard to evaluate how a battle under "normal" conditions would be likely to go (though we do have point-blank-range Star Wars fleet battles for comparison, of course). Indeed, it may be that fleet combat is a rarity in the Firefly Verse. It is unlikely that their had been prior large-scale engagements with the Reavers, given that the Alliance didn't even acknowledge their existence, and their don't seem to be any other battle fleet-level players in the setting. Maybe during the civil war, but even then, all glimpses of the the action that we see are on the ground- it may be that the Browncoats were relegated mainly to planetary uprisings/defence, and that the Alliance dominated space combat from the beginning.

Edit: Barring contradictory information in the comics or something- I'm not terribly familiar with Firefly material outside of the film and tv show.