Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
American-led? The sooner this guy goes retired, the better. Oh, I would flame him with pleasure. But I think he's not worth time. His statistics are being wrong just on about everything.However, the collapse of the American-led world order is not entirely without problems.
1921-1954:If you've got the figures, then trot them out instead of just claiming to have them
again. WTF?
I can refute this. A country with a population of around 150 millions (Russian records even from the Tsarist years have been doctored so many times "around 150 million" is about as accurate as I dare to be with the USSR's population pre-Stalin) is quite capable of sustaining 20 millions of those in forced labour camps without immediate collapse.Stas Bush wrote:since 20.000.000 killed is impossible on the sole thing that it would make the whole USSR collapse from lack of human resources, which was not observed.
Yes, I agree. Labour camps and catorga: this is how most of USSR industrial might was ahcieved.is quite capable of sustaining 20 millions of those in forced labour camps without immediate collapse.
He worked them to death, though, and then arrested more prisoners. The actual figure when you toss in famines, etc, was closer to 30 million.Stas Bush wrote: Yes, I agree. Labour camps and catorga: this is how most of USSR industrial might was ahcieved.
Not killing them. Stalin was not an idiotic geonocidal maniac.
Duchess, USSR would've lasted for a long while yet if it wasn't for Papa Bush. No, really, Papa Bush did it. Here's a brief outline: the Fool comes to America, where Papa Bush convinces him that the Fool is a president (he could've just as easily convinced the Fool that he's a Czar). He then proceeds to give the Fool the idea of how much more could get done if people did more work and less drink. The Fool, being a fool, takes Papa Bush's advice and declares Prohibition in the USSR.The Duchess of Zeon wrote:P.S. Did you notice that the USSR DID collapse back a few years ago? Long term consequences are another story.
You're quoting only direct deaths through execution or in prison, while ignoring Stalin's other actions such as deliberately starving Ukraine and people dying from overwork in the labor camps. I've never heard figures lower than 20 or 30 million dead from any source. These sources account for actions and decisions made by Stalin that directly or indirectly (through negligence) caused people to die (of starvation or whatever). Then there's the atrocities Stalin's soldiers committed against elsewhere, such as in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland and other places. You can rest assured that those figures aren't just pulled out of thin air.Stas Bush wrote:The Duchess of Zeon
Back it up. If you have some thought-out stats, it's no good.
I already stated that the 20.000.000 figure comes from sources unbothered with statistics and data processing.
All the evidence denies the impossible number. I wonder, why should all documents lie at once?
Death from indirect actions of the government (starvation, etc.) are not included, true. The 642.980 is the actual death penalty, but I said that a few millions can be dropped on top from the GULAG labor camps.You're quoting only direct deaths through execution or in prison, while ignoring Stalin's other actions such as deliberately starving Ukraine and people dying from overwork in the labor camps.
Could you provide at least one? I can provide the most trusted: a mail of one of the higher Soviet leaders, Nikita Sergeevitch Krushev. As you may not believe me, I will qoute it here:I've never heard figures lower than 20 or 30 million dead from any source.
This is far away from the "20.000.000". And strangely, all documents, no matter who made them, indicate these numbers. But the novel literature or yellow press always or nearly always comes up with 20.000.000 numbers, because they don't bother with stats.1 February 1954.
To the Secretary of ZK KPSS komrade Krushev N.S.
In connection with the reports to the ZK KPSS from a number of people about illegal accusations of anti-revolutionary actions by the OGPU comitee, NKVD "triades", Special Council, War comitee, courts and war tribunals, we report:
From 1921 to present day, 3.777.880 men were admitted guilty of anti-revolution crimes, therein 642.980 to HMoP (Highest Measure of Punishment), to containment in camps from 25 years and below: 2.369.220, exiled: 765.180.
[...] (the rest says which comitees were responsible for this)
Rudenko
Kruglov
Gorshenin
That may come up with 5 millions, but certainly not 20 or 30.These sources account for actions and decisions made by Stalin that directly or indirectly (through negligence) caused people to die (of starvation or whatever).
Indeed. I'm not defending Stalin, he is a criminal dictator. I'm just commenting the wrong stats.Then there's the atrocities Stalin's soldiers committed against elsewhere, such as in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland and other places.
They are. The sources like these obviously count everyone guilty, then make it: "everyone killed". By 1% deaths in year they easily make the 1% in month bullshit, and so on.You can rest assured that those figures aren't just pulled out of thin air.
Maybe the lies came directly from him after he read them and ordered readjuting the numbers.Stas Bush wrote:Montcalm
Because these were the reports of the NKVD itself, to it's higher staff. Or you think Stalin or any dictator would appreciate when he's lied about the consequences of his actions?
I regret, but all the documents can't be falsified at once. And again, Stalin could have killed more than documents state, but indirect ways.
Because it can be in this case only determined by the capacity of the GULAG camps and number of dead found buried or some records of the use of crematories... the capacity does not exceed 5. millions at a time, and the records of burial and crematory use are in agreement with the NKVD statistics.
