Star Wars: Rebels

[Galvatron]

Also noteworthy: Thrawn apparently answers to Tarkin as well.

that was established in the first episode here when Pryce requests the 7th fleet and Tarkin has him assigned to Lothal.

Okay, but this is the first time I can recall seeing anyone giving Thrawn an order to his face.

As for the lack of this episode's payoff, I guess I can see your point. It didn't strike a chord with you. I get that. But it worked well enough for me given the time constraints.

[ray245]

Spoiler

The only reason he didn't just kill them was because Tarkin ordered him to take prisoners. The only reason he didn't take them prisoner was because he didn't know about the pissed-off Force Demigod that happened to also live on the planet.

Konstantin screwed up, and still took out a Rebel Cell leader. Pryce may have failed, but she still did everything she could have done in that situation. Not her fault she was up against freakin' Mandalorians.

And despite those failures, Thrawn still all but wiped out Phoenix Cell, decimated Dodonna's Cell, destroyed a major rebel base, and prevented the destruction of the TIE Defender factory on Lothal. The Empire won a resounding victory, and you're mad just because it wasn't perfect?

It's hardly wiping out the Pheonix or Dondanna's cell. The important members of the fleet survived, other than Sato. As long as the Rebel leaders survive, the rebellion can rebuild and did by the time of Rogue One.

Thrawn in the EU novels is someone constrained by limited resources going up against the NR with far more resources than he had initially. He still manages to bring the NR to its knees before he was killed.

This Disney Thrawn had the full resources of the entire empire available to him, including allowing him to spend time developing new fighters. And he gambled everything on a final decisive battle when he could have killed the Rebels in previous episodes. He let the Rebels get away time and time again because he wants this nice big battle to show off his skills.

He would have been far more effective if you took every opportunity he had to simply kill off the Ghost crew.

[The Romulan Republic]

Look, if your standard for liking the show's handling of Thrawn was "Thrawn wins completely, kills off the entire Rebel leadership and the Ghost crew"... well, then you were always going to be disappointed, because canon.

Getting to take a nice big bite out of their fleet and kill a recurring character, that's as much as you can hope for really.

[Shroom Man 777]

The only major assets the Imperials lost were the Interdictors, right? We didn't even see an ISD go down. On the other hand, aside from the final escapees... almost all of the Rebel assets were blown to scrap. The leaders escaped though... but if that's a victory for the Rebels then that's very Pyrrhic.

The episodes were clunky as fuck though. Too many elements they tried to tie in... I didn't really like the Bendu bit but it was pretty cool when Thrawn fed it a blaster buffet.

[ray245]

Look, if your standard for liking the show's handling of Thrawn was "Thrawn wins completely, kills off the entire Rebel leadership and the Ghost crew"... well, then you were always going to be disappointed, because canon.

Getting to take a nice big bite out of their fleet and kill a recurring character, that's as much as you can hope for really.

I don't like them using Thrawn when they don't get the point of Thrawn as a character. Thrawn is a great villain when the heroes became cocky and underestimate a "weaker" foe. You want Thrawn to go against a tiny rebel cell? Then make him a low ranking captain and etc, someone with even more limited resources than the Rebels.

You don't keep Thrawn as a grand admiral, with far more resources than the Rebels did, only to have the Rebels escape right under his thumb. It's about having a villain that can overcome the odds stacked against him that make Thrawn so appealing as a Hannibal Barca-like character. If Hannibal outnumbered the Romans all the time, no one would have remembered Hannibal as fondly as he is today.

Either that, or you build up Thrawn throughout the season, showing him defeating one rebel cell after another. You don't waste an entire season showing Thrawn letting the Rebels escape once again because he had some sort of secret masterplan in the season finale.

The only major assets the Imperials lost were the Interdictors, right? We didn't even see an ISD go down. On the other hand, aside from the final escapees... almost all of the Rebel assets were blown to scrap. The leaders escaped though... but if that's a victory for the Rebels then that's very Pyrrhic.

The episodes were clunky as fuck though. Too many elements they tried to tie in... I didn't really like the Bendu bit but it was pretty cool when Thrawn fed it a blaster buffet.

It's not a pyrrhic victory for the Rebels because those are losses they could replace. Sure, the Rebels lost some warships, but we know that by Rogue One, they had an even bigger and more powerful fleet. As long as the Rebel leadership survive, they can always recruit more worlds, money and ships to their cause.

[Shroom Man 777]

By that logic Pearl Harbor or 9/11 weren't tragedies since a bunch of boats and a couple of buildings are just some losses that could be and were replaced.

PS even leaders can be replaced and Sato *was* lost.

[ray245]

By that logic Pearl Harbor or 9/11 weren't tragedies since a bunch of boats and a couple of buildings are just some losses that could be and were replaced.

PS even leaders can be replaced and Sato *was* lost.

Pearl harbour wasn't a massive strategic defeat for the Americans because the mosy important assets survived ( the carriers) and it really force the american to fully abandon the battleship centric doctrine for good.

What the rebellion needs during this timeframe isn't simply more ships. The battle showed that the frigates were useless against a fleet of stardestroyers. What the rebellion needs more is intact leadership and time to reorganize themselves. The entire rebel setting isn't a good place for a character like Thrawn to exist. Thrawn works better in a post-ROTJ era than a pre-ANH era.

[Shroom Man 777]

Pearl harbour wasn't a massive strategic defeat for the Americans because the mosy important assets survived ( the carriers) and it really force the american to fully abandon the battleship centric doctrine for good.

In that case, then what Thrawn did was an even greater strategic defeat than Pearl Harbor. Unless the Rebels have got that many warships elsewhere, then they've just lost a lot of their major combat vessels, which is worse than what the US had to deal with after Pearl Harbor.

What the rebellion needs during this timeframe isn't simply more ships. The battle showed that the frigates were useless against a fleet of stardestroyers. What the rebellion needs more is intact leadership and time to reorganize themselves. The entire rebel setting isn't a good place for a character like Thrawn to exist. Thrawn works better in a post-ROTJ era than a pre-ANH era.

Yes. I agree.

[eMeM]

They have a lot of starships elsewhere, the ones we saw were only two cells, there are others, like Dantooine and the whole damn Mon Cala fleet that is being retrofitted somewhere.

[Adam Reynolds]

I think I've said this before, but Thrawn really would have been a more interesting figure if he was used around the time of ESB. After the destruction of the Death Star and Tarkin's death, he rises to head the entire Imperial fleet and attempts to wipe the Rebels out militarily, taking on Ackbar and the newly formed Mon Calamari fleet. His eventual and extremely costly defeat leads to the Empire doubling down with the second Death Star.

On the upside, at least this portrayal of Thrawn didn't have Ysalimiri.

They have a lot of starships elsewhere, the ones we saw were only two cells, there are others, like Dantooine and the whole damn Mon Cala fleet that is being retrofitted somewhere.

The main Mon Cal fleet doesn't join the Rebel Alliance until after Yavin. The main ship we see in Rogue One is all that is present at that time.

[eMeM]

But they are on the Rebel side already, just not ready for combat. We saw Home One in Secret Cargo.

[Shroom Man 777]

But they are on the Rebel side already, just not ready for combat. We saw Home One in Secret Cargo.

Was that Home One? That could've just been Raddus' ship...

[ray245]

Pearl harbour wasn't a massive strategic defeat for the Americans because the mosy important assets survived ( the carriers) and it really force the american to fully abandon the battleship centric doctrine for good.

In that case, then what Thrawn did was an even greater strategic defeat than Pearl Harbor. Unless the Rebels have got that many warships elsewhere, then they've just lost a lot of their major combat vessels, which is worse than what the US had to deal with after Pearl Harbor.

They haven't lost their main combat vessels. The frigates are just frigates, supporting vessels that clearly cannot take upon SDs by themselves.

What the rebellion needs during this timeframe isn't simply more ships. The battle showed that the frigates were useless against a fleet of stardestroyers. What the rebellion needs more is intact leadership and time to reorganize themselves. The entire rebel setting isn't a good place for a character like Thrawn to exist. Thrawn works better in a post-ROTJ era than a pre-ANH era.

Yes. I agree.[/quote]

This is why I was highly skeptical when they announced Thrawn. The setting simply does not allow the writers to tell really good stories with Thrawn.

[RogueIce]

But they are on the Rebel side already, just not ready for combat. We saw Home One in Secret Cargo.

Was that Home One? That could've just been Raddus' ship...

It may not have been Home One itself, but it was a Home One type ship. The one Raddus used in Rogue One is significantly different.

IOW if it was Raddus in "Secret Cargo" he swapped ships at some point.

[Shroom Man 777]

They haven't lost their main combat vessels. The frigates are just frigates, supporting vessels that clearly cannot take upon SDs by themselves.

Maybe for that time period, those WERE the main combat vessels those guys had. Like what others pointed out, the Mon Cal fleet weren't with the Rebellion (or even constructed) yet,

This is why I was highly skeptical when they announced Thrawn. The setting simply does not allow the writers to tell really good stories with Thrawn.

I'm fine with the Thrawning here, I'm even fine with seeing Grand Admiral Thrawn doing some Grand Admiral Brawn. I think the season kind of sprawled a bit and so that detracted the emphasis on Thrawn. The Maul and Mandalorian-ing was fine... but IDK. The filler episodes messed up with the pacing.

[ray245]

They haven't lost their main combat vessels. The frigates are just frigates, supporting vessels that clearly cannot take upon SDs by themselves.

Maybe for that time period, those WERE the main combat vessels those guys had. Like what others pointed out, the Mon Cal fleet weren't with the Rebellion (or even constructed) yet,

Those vessels aren't really important by themselves. The frigates might be able to harass some imperial light cruisers but that's about all they could do. They cannot attack heavily defended imperial worlds by themselves. They are better off as medical frigates than frontline warships.

This is why I was highly skeptical when they announced Thrawn. The setting simply does not allow the writers to tell really good stories with Thrawn.

I'm fine with the Thrawning here, I'm even fine with seeing Grand Admiral Thrawn doing some Grand Admiral Brawn. I think the season kind of sprawled a bit and so that detracted the emphasis on Thrawn. The Maul and Mandalorian-ing was fine... but IDK. The filler episodes messed up with the pacing.[/quote]

There's never been any previous episode where Thrawn really gets to shine. What we got instead was a constant supply of episodes showing Thrawn letting the Rebels escape because he had some devious plan for the season finale.

Instead, they should show Thrawn constantly winning and be forcing the Rebels to rethink their strategy during the entire season. That way, it doesn't matter if Thrawn lost in the season finale because they've already managed to establish Thrawn as a major threat.

[Shroom Man 777]

Those vessels aren't really important by themselves. The frigates might be able to harass some imperial light cruisers but that's about all they could do. They cannot attack heavily defended imperial worlds by themselves. They are better off as medical frigates than frontline warships.

They're the best Dondonna had though. And just because they can't fight the Empire's heavier-hitting ships doesn't mean they're worthless. By your logic, nothing the Rebels had on that planet, nothing the Phoenix squad had, nothing Dondonna had, could've attacked heavily defended worlds on their own. So by your logic if Thrawn glassed that world it would STILL be worthless since there were no major threats there.

Come on. Thrawn pretty much sterilized almost everything those Rebels had save for a bunch of people who we never hear about in the OT except Dondonna. We don't even know how important that guy really was. As far as MISSION ACCOMPLISHED moments go, this is a pretty fair one.

You might as well said that Japan's conquest of the Philippines was a minor victory or even a defeat because they couldn't get McArthur! MUTTLEY! DO SOMETHING! AFTER HIM! HHHNNGGG!

You know what. Fine.

Thrawn lost so badly here. He should commit seppuku. He didn't squeeze Bendu's guts into puree with which to create a Sith Holocron that he'd huff to grow shoulderpads larger than Dash Rendar's, shoulderpads large enough to conquer the entire Empire with and crush Vader and Palpatine into even more holocron-ingredient purees. So Thrawn was totally pathetic. Also it shows that he has pupils whereas in the old EU Chiss didn't have pupils and one couldn't tell where a Chiss was looking at. UGH CRAPPY ANIMATIONS!

SO IT REALLY SUCKED MAAAAANNNN!!!!!

There's never been any previous episode where Thrawn really gets to shine. What we got instead was a constant supply of episodes showing Thrawn letting the Rebels escape because he had some devious plan for the season finale.

Instead, they should show Thrawn constantly winning and be forcing the Rebels to rethink their strategy during the entire season. That way, it doesn't matter if Thrawn lost in the season finale because they've already managed to establish Thrawn as a major threat.

That would've prevented the finale from being such a mess too...

[SAMAS]

Look, if your standard for liking the show's handling of Thrawn was "Thrawn wins completely, kills off the entire Rebel leadership and the Ghost crew"... well, then you were always going to be disappointed, because canon.

Getting to take a nice big bite out of their fleet and kill a recurring character, that's as much as you can hope for really.

I don't like them using Thrawn when they don't get the point of Thrawn as a character. Thrawn is a great villain when the heroes became cocky and underestimate a "weaker" foe. You want Thrawn to go against a tiny rebel cell? Then make him a low ranking captain and etc, someone with even more limited resources than the Rebels.

You don't keep Thrawn as a grand admiral, with far more resources than the Rebels did, only to have the Rebels escape right under his thumb. It's about having a villain that can overcome the odds stacked against him that make Thrawn so appealing as a Hannibal Barca-like character. If Hannibal outnumbered the Romans all the time, no one would have remembered Hannibal as fondly as he is today.

You seem to be focused a lot on Thrawn's situation. Here's the thing, though; Thrawn was not always an Underdog in his history. Not is it his defining characteristic. If you have a problem with seeing a character in a setup outside of his initial appearance, that's not their problem, but yours.

Either that, or you build up Thrawn throughout the season, showing him defeating one rebel cell after another. You don't waste an entire season showing Thrawn letting the Rebels escape once again because he had some sort of secret masterplan in the season finale.

Wasn't that mostly what Thrawn did in his trilogy? Spend most of it setting up then trying to cripple the Republic in one master stroke?

The only major assets the Imperials lost were the Interdictors, right? We didn't even see an ISD go down. On the other hand, aside from the final escapees... almost all of the Rebel assets were blown to scrap. The leaders escaped though... but if that's a victory for the Rebels then that's very Pyrrhic.

The episodes were clunky as fuck though. Too many elements they tried to tie in... I didn't really like the Bendu bit but it was pretty cool when Thrawn fed it a blaster buffet.

It's not a pyrrhic victory for the Rebels because those are losses they could replace. Sure, the Rebels lost some warships, but we know that by Rogue One, they had an even bigger and more powerful fleet. As long as the Rebel leadership survive, they can always recruit more worlds, money and ships to their cause.

It wasn't a victory for the Rebellion at all. They lost a sector headquarters, two of their fleets got torn up, and they lost one of their fleet commanders. The later gains do not negate their losses here, because if they hadn't lost their ships here, their fleet could have been nearly twice as big. Their leadership might not have been as scared, and maybe they would have gone with the Scarif operation on their own accord, and maybe Rogue One (at least as a unit) would have survived. A smoother operation means that Leia is unlikely to have been captured, meaning Obi-Wan Kenobi may not die fighting Vader, at least not before giving more training to Luke and Leia.

Just because the Rebellion bounced back later, doesn't mean they aren't hurt now. Especially considering it's gonna take them at least all of Season 4 (maybe even 5 or 6) to get to that point.

[Shroom Man 777]

I would not be averse to ridiculousness like a TIME PARADOX where they just said fuck it and have Saw Gerrera blow up Thrawn and Bor Gullet strangling Boba Fett to death or something.

Still, we needed to see more Thrawn victories before this actually.

[Galvatron]

Too bad Disney didn't buy Lucasfilm and trash the old EU sooner or else we may have seen Thrawn as far back as the Clone Wars, during which he would have had plenty of opportunities to show us his stuff.

They could have re-imagined his origin as a brilliant separatist commander who consistently defeated Jedi-led forces despite being outnumbered and outclassed in every battle. Hell, his signature victory could have been against Jedi General C'baoth.

[Shroom Man 777]

We could see character development, seeing him go from a Grand Admiral Scrawn to a Grand Admiral Brawn!

[ray245]

They're the best Dondonna had though. And just because they can't fight the Empire's heavier-hitting ships doesn't mean they're worthless. By your logic, nothing the Rebels had on that planet, nothing the Phoenix squad had, nothing Dondonna had, could've attacked heavily defended worlds on their own. So by your logic if Thrawn glassed that world it would STILL be worthless since there were no major threats there.

But those are replaceable losses. As long as Rebel leadership survive, they can always rebuild and grow in size.

Come on. Thrawn pretty much sterilized almost everything those Rebels had save for a bunch of people who we never hear about in the OT except Dondonna. We don't even know how important that guy really was. As far as MISSION ACCOMPLISHED moments go, this is a pretty fair one.

You might as well said that Japan's conquest of the Philippines was a minor victory or even a defeat because they couldn't get McArthur! MUTTLEY! DO SOMETHING! AFTER HIM! HHHNNGGG!

You know what. Fine.

I'm saying there's a difference between a tactical victory and a strategic victory. It's like US's war against the Taliban. Sure, they blow up terrorist every now and then, but the civilian casualties they incur is only fueling the hatred towards American and give the terrorists more recruits.

Thrawn lost so badly here. He should commit seppuku. He didn't squeeze Bendu's guts into puree with which to create a Sith Holocron that he'd huff to grow shoulderpads larger than Dash Rendar's, shoulderpads large enough to conquer the entire Empire with and crush Vader and Palpatine into even more holocron-ingredient purees. So Thrawn was totally pathetic. Also it shows that he has pupils whereas in the old EU Chiss didn't have pupils and one couldn't tell where a Chiss was looking at. UGH CRAPPY ANIMATIONS!

SO IT REALLY SUCKED MAAAAANNNN!!!!!

LOL, I don't know what to say to this.

That would've prevented the finale from being such a mess too...

They need to make up their minds about how to write a proper season long arc. They can't be throwing everything into a season because they want as many cool stuff as possible.

You seem to be focused a lot on Thrawn's situation. Here's the thing, though; Thrawn was not always an Underdog in his history. Not is it his defining characteristic. If you have a problem with seeing a character in a setup outside of his initial appearance, that's not their problem, but yours.

No, I don't have a problem with a setup outside of his inital apperance. I'm saying they need to modify Thrawn to the new setting in the Rebels series. Commander Thrawn will probably be better in Rebels than Grand Admiral Thrawn.

Wasn't that mostly what Thrawn did in his trilogy? Spend most of it setting up then trying to cripple the Republic in one master stroke?

Didn't he reduce the Republic's inital numerial advantage as well?

It wasn't a victory for the Rebellion at all. They lost a sector headquarters, two of their fleets got torn up, and they lost one of their fleet commanders. The later gains do not negate their losses here, because if they hadn't lost their ships here, their fleet could have been nearly twice as big. Their leadership might not have been as scared, and maybe they would have gone with the Scarif operation on their own accord, and maybe Rogue One (at least as a unit) would have survived. A smoother operation means that Leia is unlikely to have been captured, meaning Obi-Wan Kenobi may not die fighting Vader, at least not before giving more training to Luke and Leia.

Just because the Rebellion bounced back later, doesn't mean they aren't hurt now. Especially considering it's gonna take them at least all of Season 4 (maybe even 5 or 6) to get to that point.

There's no certainty that a few more frigates would have changed things by much. The frigates are shown to be quite useless against Stardestroyers. There is no reason to make the assumption that this would change the outcourse of events in Rogue One. Moreover, the Rebels did manage to escape Scarif. It's just that a few ships were late by a few seconds before Vader blow them to bits.

[Knife]

But those are replaceable losses. As long as Rebel leadership survive, they can always rebuild and grow in size.

Are you sure you're not fanboi a bit here? What do you want? Thrawn to kill off the main characters and the show to end?

And villain will have the same problems in this setting. Hell, Vader had to have writers fiat to keep him from taking out all the main characters in the show. Shit, in the movies.

[Shroom Man 777]

Even blowing up VIPs won't stop the war effort anyway, even popping Osama bin Laden in the head won't stop 'em, even the POTUS dying of polio, etc. so by your criteria all those losses don't matter.

I'm saying there's a difference between a tactical victory and a strategic victory. It's like US's war against the Taliban. Sure, they blow up terrorist every now and then, but the civilian casualties they incur is only fueling the hatred towards American and give the terrorists more recruits.

Then by this logic there's no way you'd ever say Thrawn could win at all! The Empire still loses at the end! Maybe Thrawn could use his appreciation of art to realize he's in a fucking cartoon and start throwing ridiculous pop culture references and R-18 related feats so suddenly Filoni will be like WTF WHY IS MY SHOW BREAKING THE G-RATING?! before the show is pulled by Disney so that will be the greatest victory of Thrawn ever! Or he does a Bugs Bunny Acme-thing and starts using Photoshop to erase Kanan and Ezra from the show lol.

Or if he rounds up all potential dissidents into the Death Star's vast caverns and bottomless pits which in my brain are actually gigantic juicing machines meant to crush millions of ORPHANS into juice that Palpatine will crystalize into holocrons.

TLDR: Your criteria for "win/loss" and "replaceable loss" and "major loss" sucks. You should have Dash Rendar's shoulder pads, made out of spherical masses of iron, strapped on you before you're thrown into the ocean.

URGH GOD

[ray245]

But those are replaceable losses. As long as Rebel leadership survive, they can always rebuild and grow in size.

Are you sure you're not fanboi a bit here? What do you want? Thrawn to kill off the main characters and the show to end?

And villain will have the same problems in this setting. Hell, Vader had to have writers fiat to keep him from taking out all the main characters in the show. Shit, in the movies.

I don't want them to use Thrawn if they cannot find a way to make him an effective threat.

Even blowing up VIPs won't stop the war effort anyway, even popping Osama bin Laden in the head won't stop 'em, even the POTUS dying of polio, etc. so by your criteria all those losses don't matter.

Blowing up the leaders is far more effective than letting them escape once again. You make decisions based on which is the best for the war effort. The allied were happy to let Hitler survive when they saw him mess up Germany's war effort.

Then by this logic there's no way you'd ever say Thrawn could win at all! The Empire still loses at the end! Maybe Thrawn could use his appreciation of art to realize he's in a fucking cartoon and start throwing ridiculous pop culture references and R-18 related feats so suddenly Filoni will be like WTF WHY IS MY SHOW BREAKING THE G-RATING?! before the show is pulled by Disney so that will be the greatest victory of Thrawn ever! Or he does a Bugs Bunny Acme-thing and starts using Photoshop to erase Kanan and Ezra from the show lol.

Or if he rounds up all potential dissidents into the Death Star's vast caverns and bottomless pits which in my brain are actually gigantic juicing machines meant to crush millions of ORPHANS into juice that Palpatine will crystalize into holocrons.

TLDR: Your criteria for "win/loss" and "replaceable loss" and "major loss" sucks. You should have Dash Rendar's shoulder pads, made out of spherical masses of iron, strapped on you before you're thrown into the ocean.

URGH GOD

Then you demote Thrawn into a mere commander to show why he couldn't win from the very start. Show he never had the resources he needed to win the war despite his brilliance. Actually draw inspiration from the historical characters he's based on. Thrawn was inspired by Rommel, so use the exact circumstances Rommel faced.

Show Thrawn never had the proper logistics to wage a proper campaign like Rommel, and show how he defeated larger foes despite having the odds against him and the handicaps he was under. It's appealing to follow the story of a villain trying to overcome the odds against him. Even if he did lose, we can still appreciate the character's intellect and abilities.

Give Thrawn more than one victory throughout the entire season. Show how Thrawn managed to defeat fleets that outnumbered him. It's hard to think of Thrawn as this super genius commander when he had a bigger fleet than the Rebels. We remember great commanders from history often due to the fact that they faced superior odds and somehow manage to achieve a victory.

Hannibal lost the Punic war, but his ability to win at Cannae and etc allowed him to be a famous historical figure. It's the same as Alexander the Great, Napoleon and etc. People don't mind that they lost the war in the end, as long as the narrative allows the audience to understand their brilliance.

There are so many historical narratives a writer can draw upon to write a story of a brilliant general that lost the war in the end. I don't mind Thrawn losing the war against the Rebels. But I would like to see him do far more damage to the rebellion than simply taking out one Rebel cell with unlimited resources.

There's nothing impressive about Thrawn as a commander.
Is Thrawn a good commander? Yes.
Is Thrawn a brilliant commander? Not really, based on what we have seen.