Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

[RogueIce]

Yularen is definitively a Colonel with his ANH insignia and clearly a member of ISB, wearing the white-over-black uniform. No collar insignia as well, which is unusual for mid-level officers like him on Rebels.

[Himser]

So some ranks i pulled out of Rogue 1,



Lots of new stuff to see, nice to see some consistency these days,

the only one that was fuzzy was the scarif officer one, the rest werepretty much right one,

Interestingly there was several officers down on Jedia... but their cool overcoats were in the way only saw the start of their ranks, it looked all Amber, thus maybe science officers? I know that one science officer from ANH was (and the LEGO piece that was floating around) was the same as Galen Urso's.

[Galvatron]

Krennic had six red squares when he was still just a (lieutenant?) commander (in Jyn's flashback of her family when they were living on Coruscant).

[RogueIce]

Krennic had six red squares when he was still just a (lieutenant?) commander (in Jyn's flashback of her family when they were living on Coruscant).

Which would be quite inconsistent with Tagge from ANH, in that case.

[Himser]

According to https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-85W_bOLVePc/ ... lls-19.jpg i missed RED RED RED BLUE Rank..

Also when Krennic shows up on the Galans Farm, we really have no idea what rank he is, the six red markers tend to show someone in charge of something like a single Major Facility or so. (ie Sharif's Commander, Tagge, Krennic, )

[Tiriol]

According to https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-85W_bOLVePc/ ... lls-19.jpg i missed RED RED RED BLUE Rank..

Also when Krennic shows up on the Galans Farm, we really have no idea what rank he is, the six red markers tend to show someone in charge of something like a single Major Facility or so. (ie Sharif's Commander, Tagge, Krennic, )

If six red markers indicate a commander of some major facility, the ISD commander has six blue markers (it could indicate command over a major vessel) and Tarkin's aide had six yellow markers, the last could could indicate someone in charge of a major administrative function, like Tarkin's general staff.

Black uniforms seem to be markings of someone who is a stormtrooper officer or a NCO. It would seem that Stormtrooper Corps produces high-ranking officers of both Army and Navy (one of them was in charge of the experimental Interdictor cruiser in Rebels season 2, Admiral Titus I believe).

[Himser]

I like the idea of Blue being Starfleet, Red being Major Facility and Amber being Administrative.

In the Rogue one "ultimate visual guide" (Yes i spent 40$ on a kids book, ill give it to a kid eventually) indicates that the Devastator Commander is actually the Captain of the Devastator. so if B B B R R = Captain then imo the B B B B B B = Commodore or something (leader of all the space forces in Scarif)

Im personally privy to that Black is not a Stormtrooper officer uniform, but is not a line officer uniform. I personally dont think Admiral Titus was a Stormtrooper officer but just not a Line Officer and set for special assignments.

[Galvatron]

I like the idea of Blue being Starfleet, Red being Major Facility and Amber being Administrative.

That's fine, but I'm starting to lean toward the idea that the quantity, color and arrangement of the squares on their badges are all equally significant and may indicate more than just rank.

After all, Tarkin and Thrawn have the same number of red, yellow and blue squares on their badges. The only difference is how they're arranged. That's gotta mean something.

[RogueIce]

I like the idea of Blue being Starfleet, Red being Major Facility and Amber being Administrative.

That's fine, but I'm starting to lean toward the idea that the quantity, color and arrangement of the squares on their badges are all equally significant and may indicate more than just rank.

After all, Tarkin and Thrawn have the same number of red, yellow and blue squares on their badges. The only difference is how they're arranged. That's gotta mean something.

I think at the end of the day, we're going to just have to accept that the ESB-style is the "correct" one, as Pablo Hidalgo indicates. Badges like Thrawn's (and Tagge, in the Vader comics) and Tarkin's are still legitimate, but they indicate some special status/rank anyway and so being outlier from the red/blue model is understandable.

That still leaves the question about the ANH-style badges, what they're supposed to represent and more importantly why they're in use for some officers but not others. But thanks to Rebels, and a certain extent Rogue One, we at least know it wasn't some grand redesign; the ESB badges existed right alongside them, so ANH badges are also an exception, not the rule.

[Lord Revan]

Maybe the ANH system was an older style that was (really) slowly being phased out in favor of the ESB system it would explain why both systems exist at the same time. could be that special badges in the ANH systems were seen as redundant and thus were removed, but the process wasn't done during ANH so we see badges with the old style.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hmmm that could correspond with the Senate being dissolved. By ESB, a new kind of insignia system might've been implemented not only to denote military rank but their rank in government because the military occupation force IS the government now! They might've streamlined and combined military and civilian governance, like governor-generals in real-life countries colonized by European powers.

[Galvatron]

That's a splendid idea!

[Eternal_Freedom]

That is actually pretty sweet as an explanation. It's clear some sort of reorganisation happens between ANH and ESB, it never occurred to me that this coincided with the Senate's dissolution and the Regional Governors now having direct control of their territories (territories - makes them sound like gang leaders or drug cartels, heh).

[Shroom Man 777]

Uh huh. It can simplify our confoundment as to what a Moff is, what a Regional Governor is... was Tarkin a Moff AND a Governor? We don't see real-life governors wear military uniforms. Etc.

[Khaat]

Tarkin was a Grand Moff (governor of an "oversector")

If the Empire follows the inspiration (the Roman Empire), generals become governors, so....

edit: because the Internet is hard!

[Galvatron]

I believe the new EU has elaborated on it more, but I always under the impression that grand moffs were regional governors and regular moffs were sector-level governors.

Hence, when Tarkin said that "the regional governors will now have direct control over their territories," he was referring to himself and any other grand moffs like him.

[Galvatron]

Here are some excerpts from Tarkin that may shed some light upon all this:

Even those who should have known better tended to dismiss Dangor, Greejatus, and Pestage as sycophants, when in fact members of the Ruling Council oversaw the everyday affairs of the Empire and wielded wide-ranging and sometimes menacing powers. Even the Empire’s twenty Moffs were obligated to answer to the Imperial cadre.

Only twenty Moffs. I wonder if the same held true throughout the Emperor's reign or if he appointed even more Moffs in the latter days of the Empire.

“We need to tighten our hold over the Outer Systems,” the Emperor continued. “You will be in charge of that, Moff Tarkin. Or should I say Grand Moff Tarkin.”

Tarkin’s gaped in genuine surprise. “Grand Moff?”

“The Empire’s first.” The Emperor spread his sickly hands. “Was it not you who suggested the creation of oversectors and oversector governance as a means of enhancing our control?”

“It was, my lord.”

“Then your wish is granted. The Outer Rim is yours to oversee—and with it, Grand Moff Tarkin, the whole of the mobile battle station project.”

I'll venture to guess that all Moffs and Grand Moffs are "regional governors" and that their regions or territories are just colloquial terms for the Sectors or Oversectors that they govern.

To complement his new station, he designed and had made a gray-green uniform whose thick-belted, round-collared tunic featured four code cylinders and a rank plaque of twelve multicolored squares, six blue over trios of red and gold. In all dealings with the Emperor he was referred to as Grand Moff, but for ordinary interactions with military personnel he retained the honorific Governor.

This seems to be in keeping with the practice among upper echelon Imperials of addressing their peers as "Commander" (e.g. Motti to Tagge and Vader to Jerjerrod) regardless of their actual rank.

[Shroom Man 777]

If after the Senate was dissolved, the Regional Governors/Moffs had direct control over the territories... then what was the previous arrangement like? How did Moffs interact with Senators and local leaders then?

[Lord Revan]

I guessing there's was degree of red-tape inherited from the (Old) Galactic Republic, after all one of the lines after Tarkin announced that the senate was dissolved was "how will the emperor maintain control without his byrocracy" suggestion there was something there I'm guessing sometimes like an senatorial commission of the interior overseeing the regional authorities.

[eMeM]

Hmmm that could correspond with the Senate being dissolved. By ESB, a new kind of insignia system might've been implemented not only to denote military rank but their rank in government because the military occupation force IS the government now! They might've streamlined and combined military and civilian governance, like governor-generals in real-life countries colonized by European powers.

Some Imperials in Rebels use TESB system.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hmmm that could correspond with the Senate being dissolved. By ESB, a new kind of insignia system might've been implemented not only to denote military rank but their rank in government because the military occupation force IS the government now! They might've streamlined and combined military and civilian governance, like governor-generals in real-life countries colonized by European powers.

Some Imperials in Rebels use TESB system.

Presumably Imperials in the Lothal area are ahead of the curb of these reforms as Governor Pryce etc. are all obviously military folks who've got authority over the local government since we see no civilian authority at all over there. By ESB maybe the whole galaxy's been "Lothalized" or in other words placed under a similar system of military rule with civilian governance overridden.

[Tiriol]

Hmmm that could correspond with the Senate being dissolved. By ESB, a new kind of insignia system might've been implemented not only to denote military rank but their rank in government because the military occupation force IS the government now! They might've streamlined and combined military and civilian governance, like governor-generals in real-life countries colonized by European powers.

Some Imperials in Rebels use TESB system.

Presumably Imperials in the Lothal area are ahead of the curb of these reforms as Governor Pryce etc. are all obviously military folks who've got authority over the local government since we see no civilian authority at all over there. By ESB maybe the whole galaxy's been "Lothalized" or in other words placed under a similar system of military rule with civilian governance overridden.

I've tried to come up with a useful table showing various rank insignia etc. in proper order and I think that there might be some truth to it. It just might be that the Imperial forces are very slow to implement changes and it does take someone, as you said, like Governor Pryce to spearhead that change. Since we haven't so far seen ISB personnel after ANH, we can't say if the change in insignia includes them as well - so far they seem to follow a very unique pattern of insignia, at least with Kallus.

It would be logical: once the Empire was established, the insignia of the Republic was faded out and replaced with new ones. However, with centralization of power away from local populace and Senators and to the hands of the Emperor and his functionaries, they might have wanted a new type of insignia as well. Moffs and other proactive Governors might be very quick to implement it, since they are posed to gain most by Palpatine's reforms (the dissolution of the Senate was clearly something of a shock to the senior staff at Tarkin's conference in ANH, so they might not have expected it at all - and Vader probably didn't care at all about insignia to begin with).

It appears to me that even during the Clone Wars the clones were not given strategic command. Some clones seem to work on starship bridges as officers, but not as captains of entire ships; and all clones seem to be subservient to non-clone officers and, of course, the Jedi (even Jedi Padawans outrank clone commanders, who seem to be the highest-ranking clone officers around). I don't think that the Empire would be ready to accept clones as admirals or generals, since it would probably block ambitious natural-born Imperials' advancement opportunities.

In the canon section of Commander Cody's Wookieepedia entry, it says this: "With the support and recommendations of General Kenobi he rose to Marshal Commander, the highest rank a clone can hold."

After the Clone Wars, it wouldn't surprise me if veteran clonetroopers were tasked with training stormtroopers once they were too old to serve as troopers themselves. Their conditioning no doubt prevented the vast majority of them from taking offense at being glorified slaves and rebelling against the Empire.

Marshal Commander is new information for me. I wonder how it holds up to non-clone ranks.

I can see clones training the new stormtroopers and at least Admiral Titus indicated that it was possible for a clone to have a prestigious position in the Empire. We don't really know, though, if he was lying or not. There seems to be something of a dislike to clones among the Imperials and their successors the First Order.

[Ender]

Per Thrawn the Naval Rank system goes

Ensign
Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Captain
Lieutenant Commander
Commander
Commodore
Admiral
Fleet Admiral
Grand Admiral

No real description of the badges though

[Galvatron]

That's awful. A naval captain ranks lower than a lieutenant commander? It sounds like Zahn's collaboration with Stackpole has contaminated the new EU too...

At the base of the gangway, Isard paused and offered her hand to a small, lean man in a black uniform. The rank insignia he wore on his jacket’s left breast bore only six color tabs, but the fact that he also wore two rank cylinders told Vorru he was a Commander, not a mere Captain. Even so, because of his position of command on the ship and Imperial tradition, addressing him as Captain would be proper.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ait_Convarion

So how do we go about fixing this one?

[Crazedwraith]

There's no real reason they have to line up with real world ranks. I doubt the other shows are actually adhering to that system though.

The old EU sort of implied it was only the case in the fighter corps not the Naval one. (And hence that Convarion was a pilot in command of a Star Destroyer or some such)