Last Jedi first trailer.

[The Romulan Republic]

Snoke is curious. He seems to be this master manipulator, but we have very little idea of what he's actually done.

I just hope that can find a way to present him that makes him an effective villain while being more than just a Palpatine knock-off, but without trying to make him some overpowered wanked-out super villain in an effort to one-up the previous films.

It would actually be interesting if he was fairly weak in the Force, and relied entirely on his cunning and manipulations. Though that would leave the bad guys without a really strong one-on-one fighter, unless Kylo is much stronger this time around.

Then again, its hard to really gauge how strong Kylo is relative to Rey, because he was suffering from a severe gut wound and other injuries the last time they fought.

[Civil War Man]

This was my thought as well: from Luke's perspective it even makes a certain degree of sense. Within a span only slightly greater than his own life, one or more of the Jedi have given in to the Dark Side and brought about a purge and galactic-level chaos. If he has found the original records of the Jedi, then maybe they include similar events in the past (as in the old EU) where Jedi turn to the Dark and cause death and chaos.

Hopefully it is something more like this rather than what TRR fears. If they are willing to canonize some of the old EU fallen Jedi like Ajunta Pall, Exar Kun, and Revan, then perhaps Luke starts to come to the belief that the rise of a Sith-like entity becomes inevitable when the Jedi exist. So his "maybe there shouldn't be any more Jedi" attitude is less about the Jedi being wrong and more about protecting the rest of the galaxy from the Sith.

Kind of like how some have speculated that a villain like the Joker couldn't exist if there wasn't a Batman.

[The Romulan Republic]

The problem then is "What comes after?"

Unless all knowledge of the Force is lost (and hell will freeze over before the write Force users out of the Star Wars trilogy), their is always going to be the potential for it to be abused, and a need for people to be trained to use it responsibly. If you created a new organization to train people in how to use the Force responsibly/benevolently, how would it be all that different from the Jedi, except in name?

Unless...

I know some have speculated that the Jedi fell in part because they got too entwined in Republic politics. Maybe the successor will be an organization that focuses more exclusively on training, and then lets its students go their own way after they graduate, rather than trying to be a political/military organization. That's an interesting thought, though I doubt its where they'll go with this.

[Galvatron]

Quoting myself, but it seems just as relevant now as it was before:

The Republic endured for a thousand generations, it seemed to work very very well for a very very long time. I'd be inclined to give it a few more shots.

The Old Republic, however, relied on the Jedi and their Order no longer exists. Besides, if galactic history in the new EU is anything like it was in the old EU, Jedi failures were responsible for some of the bloodiest wars during those thousand generations.

I'd love to see the story go in a new direction, wherein the good guys (including Luke) agree to establish a new government that no longer requires the Jedi for its endurance. It could be what the Empire should have been were it not secretly ruled by an evil Sith Lord and his fiendish cronies.

That doesn't mean the Jedi should disappear. Not at all. In fact, nothing would make me happier than to see them become an order of wandering heroes who maintain peace and order through good deeds irrespective of the whims of politicians. So instead of leaving slaves to their miserable existence on backwaters like Tatooine, the new Jedi would liberate them.

And I still stand by that.

[The Romulan Republic]

Of course, that's problematic too, because no reasonable government is going to want wandering individuals (i.e. vigilantes) taking matters into their own hands within its own territory. Especially if those individuals have superhuman powers.

Its the Superhero registration/Sokovia Accords all over again.

What I have in mind is that the Jedi set themselves up specifically as an institution to train Force users. If an individual breaks their rules, they'll disavow them and refuse them higher-level training, but take no further action against them.

When one graduates, they can use their powers however they see fit. If a graduate wants to join the local military or police and serve under their rules, they can do that. If they want to run for office, they can do that. If they want to cheat at gambling, or work as a stage magician, or just have a normal life and keep their powers to themselves, they can do that too.

As for policing Force users... we know their are non-Force ways to bring down a Force user with sufficient technology and training.

[Galvatron]

It's problematic either way.

Perhaps the Jedi operated independently for millennia before the Sith conquered the Republic. Then, after the Sith were defeated, the Jedi started answering directly to the Senate.

Until that went to shit too. It could be that's why Luke thinks the Jedi should just end.

[Anacronian]

The more I listen to it the more I'm convinced that it isn't Mark Hamill voice that says "It's time for the Jedi to end" to me it sounds like Benicio Del Toro.

I'm pretty sure it's Mark Hamill that say "I only know one truth" - but after the pause, it sounds like a different voice.

[Lord Insanity]

Edit: Also, because I missed it before- "bringing balance to the Force" in the PT pretty clearly did not mean "the Light and Dark Side should be equal", which is how a lot of fans have insisted on "interpreting" it. As I recall, Lucas basically stated that the Dark Side was meant to be an imbalance, and while I stand by what I said about Lucas's behind the scenes comments not meaning much, the depiction in the films overall mostly bears that out. What contradictions exist mostly originated in EU material.

The Clone Wars fully explained what the whole "balance to the force" and "chosen one" actually mean. This is something that is still canon under Disney and George Lucas directly worked on and approved. Here is the very condensed version (just under 5 minutes) of Anakin dealing with the living embodiment of the light and dark sides of the force.



It will be rather interesting to see if The Last Jedi refers to any of those concepts. They are clearly hinting at Jedi and Sith being very narrow doctrine on the force. Clone Wars again reinforces that with the Nightsisters shown using the force in a completely different way to Jedi or Sith.

Of course the The Last Jedi going too heavy into mystical craziness could lead to a Matrix style shark jump.

[Galvatron]

I actually hope the ST undoes some of the crap that we saw in the Mortis arc. I always thought it was a bridge too far.

[Knife]

What I'm thinking right now is that Luke saying its time for the Jedi to end might come near the beginning of the movie, with Luke initially refusing to train Rey, like Yoda refused to train Luke. We do see Luke training Rey, so maybe she convinces Luke to give the Jedi another chance.

That's kinda what I was thinking when I said Rey would have to redeem Luke from despair.

That would be my guess too.

[Kojiro]

TRR, you're basically channeling my thoughts and fears right now.

I kinda feel like the new trilogy is a sort of bizarre reboot but at the same time a continuation. The Force needs to stay dual, a Light and Dark. I think part of the problem was that we never saw what the Light side really did 'to you' while we saw, and we told, the Dark side came with consequences. It'd be nice if we saw, or were told that Yoda's long life was due to his harmonious alignment with the Light side or something similar. Instead it seems like choosing the Light is a burden that, overall, does little for you (beyond Force powers). Which are great, but I wouldn't trade my wife for them.

That I think is my biggest issue with a 'grey' force user. If they dabble in the Dark, it will eventually consume them. Dominate their path. These ideas are central to my understanding of the Force and I fear that the way they're going I'll experience cognitive dissonance.

I keep thinking of that bit where Rey suddenly turns on the Force powers and goes from fleeing, outmatched against Kylo to kicking his ass. To me that directly parallels Luke's sudden burst of power that brought down Vader. But where Luke saw the edge or the Darkness and *voluntarily* stepped back into the Light, Rey never did. Kylo was spared by a chasm, not a her character growth.

Who knows, maybe I'm all wrong. But I feel like the final trilogy might work better as a standalone set rather than a continuation.

[The Romulan Republic]

Edit: Also, because I missed it before- "bringing balance to the Force" in the PT pretty clearly did not mean "the Light and Dark Side should be equal", which is how a lot of fans have insisted on "interpreting" it. As I recall, Lucas basically stated that the Dark Side was meant to be an imbalance, and while I stand by what I said about Lucas's behind the scenes comments not meaning much, the depiction in the films overall mostly bears that out. What contradictions exist mostly originated in EU material.

The Clone Wars fully explained what the whole "balance to the force" and "chosen one" actually mean. This is something that is still canon under Disney and George Lucas directly worked on and approved. Here is the very condensed version (just under 5 minutes) of Anakin dealing with the living embodiment of the light and dark sides of the force.



It will be rather interesting to see if The Last Jedi refers to any of those concepts. They are clearly hinting at Jedi and Sith being very narrow doctrine on the force. Clone Wars again reinforces that with the Nightsisters shown using the force in a completely different way to Jedi or Sith.

Of course the The Last Jedi going too heavy into mystical craziness could lead to a Matrix style shark jump.

Yes, I'm (partially) familiar with the Mortis arc (never saw the whole thing).

As I understand it, their were three beings that embodied the Light and Dark Side, with one in between.

I'm not sure it squares very well with the OT either, and I always prefer the Force as more of an omnipresent, well, force than something that is bound to a particularly entity or location, but yes, as much as I have my doubts about it, it is canon.

It is also canon that weighs somewhat against the relativist approach, as it clearly identifies their being a benevolent Light and malevolent Dark Side to the Force. Though the presence of a third entity that lies between the two muddles things somewhat.

[Knife]

Yes, I'm (partially) familiar with the Mortis arc (never saw the whole thing).

As I understand it, their were three beings that embodied the Light and Dark Side, with one in between.

I'm not sure it squares very well with the OT either, and I always prefer the Force as more of an omnipresent, well, force than something that is bound to a particularly entity or location, but yes, as much as I have my doubts about it, it is canon.

It is also canon that weighs somewhat against the relativist approach, as it clearly identifies their being a benevolent Light and malevolent Dark Side to the Force. Though the presence of a third entity that lies between the two muddles things somewhat.

I don't see how it muddles things. There is obviously a gray area in between both in movies and in EU. Plenty of Jedi defy the powers that be and are considered OK. So you have daughter and son who represent each shade of the Force (if you will) with dad in the middle. You have the Bendu which is in the middle. Even the Jedi themselves have middle ground people. Qui Gon followed the Living Force and not the Unifying Force that is implied is Yoda's preferred notion of the Force, let alone his tendency to shirk the Council to do what he felt was right. There is the Lost 20 who didn't go bad, rather just left the Jedi Order. Granted Dooku wasn't really just a Jedi who left but instead was a Sith, so really it's the Lost 19. We know there is a protocol to expel people from the Jedi Order. Obi Wan told Anakin if he went after Padme instead of Dooku he would be expelled. Don't know how many have been kicked out but no word on everyone being kicked out going on to be a super villain.

Just because there is a Light and Dark side to the Force doesn't mean everything needs to exist in the extremes of each side. And while I'm a big Jedi person and will defend them against silly stuff, it's clear in the PT that Yoda's Jedi Order was a bit screwy and over bearing on a lot of things they didn't need to be so any teaching of Yoda to what does and does not constitute a path to the dark side may be taken with a grain of salt.

Luke clearly straddled the line and came back, though I'd say he more dipped into the gray than pure black. By the old Order's standard, Luke is pretty Gray. Vader was redeemed before death and he dived head long into the dark.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yes, I'm (partially) familiar with the Mortis arc (never saw the whole thing).

As I understand it, their were three beings that embodied the Light and Dark Side, with one in between.

I'm not sure it squares very well with the OT either, and I always prefer the Force as more of an omnipresent, well, force than something that is bound to a particularly entity or location, but yes, as much as I have my doubts about it, it is canon.

It is also canon that weighs somewhat against the relativist approach, as it clearly identifies their being a benevolent Light and malevolent Dark Side to the Force. Though the presence of a third entity that lies between the two muddles things somewhat.

I don't see how it muddles things.

Because it simultaneously promotes the idea of their being a distinct Light and Dark Side in opposition to each other, and of a more ambiguous "Grey" interpretation.

I suppose they're not necessarily contradictory, since as you note, Grey can fall between the polar opposites of the Light and Dark Side, but it does make the issue a little more complicate.

There is obviously a gray area in between both in movies and in EU. Plenty of Jedi defy the powers that be and are considered OK.

Examples please. Are you referring to Jedi who defy the Light Side, or Jedi who defy the authority of the Jedi Council, or Jedi Code? Because those are not the same things.

So you have daughter and son who represent each shade of the Force (if you will) with dad in the middle. You have the Bendu which is in the middle. Even the Jedi themselves have middle ground people. Qui Gon followed the Living Force and not the Unifying Force that is implied is Yoda's preferred notion of the Force, let alone his tendency to shirk the Council to do what he felt was right.

See, this is where I think a lot of the confusion comes from. People equate "Jedi doctrine" and "Light Side", and then either treat the failures of the Jedi as invalidating the Light Side, or going against the Jedi as proof that one is not following the Light Side. But the Jedi Order is an imperfect creation of imperfect beings. It strives to follow the Light Side, but it is not omniscient nor infallible, and it therefore does not follow that because someone disobeys the Jedi Council, or even the Jedi Code, that they are not Light Side, just as the failings of the Jedi Order do not invalidate the Light Side.

I don't see Qui-Gon as not following the Light Side simply because he disobeys the Jedi Council.

There is the Lost 20 who didn't go bad, rather just left the Jedi Order. Granted Dooku wasn't really just a Jedi who left but instead was a Sith, so really it's the Lost 19. We know there is a protocol to expel people from the Jedi Order. Obi Wan told Anakin if he went after Padme instead of Dooku he would be expelled. Don't know how many have been kicked out but no word on everyone being kicked out going on to be a super villain.

See above.

Just because there is a Light and Dark side to the Force doesn't mean everything needs to exist in the extremes of each side. And while I'm a big Jedi person and will defend them against silly stuff, it's clear in the PT that Yoda's Jedi Order was a bit screwy and over bearing on a lot of things they didn't need to be so any teaching of Yoda to what does and does not constitute a path to the dark side may be taken with a grain of salt.

I agree with pretty much all of this, in and of itself. I think our main point of disagreement here is on weather "Light Side" is defined by what the Old Republic Jedi say.

Luke clearly straddled the line and came back, though I'd say he more dipped into the gray than pure black. By the old Order's standard, Luke is pretty Gray. Vader was redeemed before death and he dived head long into the dark.

Vader was never really Grey, though, was he? He went Dark Side, then returned to the Light Side (though you could argue that the motives behind his redemption were partially selfish). I suppose you could make a case for pre-fall Anakin being "Grey" if you want, but we see how that ended.

Luke... well, the late Old Republic Jedi might consider him Grey, or more likely in danger of falling to the Dark Side, but I would say that the Old Republic Jedi had, by and large, lost touch with what following the Light Side meant. I prefer to think that the Old Republic Jedi were themselves falling, and that Luke actually moved closer to the Light Side by embracing familial love.

After all, the Old Republic Jedi were advancing a contradictory philosophy, so some component of it must have been in error. They essentially argued against attachment, because fear (of loss) would supposedly lead to the Dark Side. The irony that they were themselves acting out of fear (of the Dark Side) was apparently lost on them.

[Galvatron]

I still don't see a problem with the Force itself being completely neutral and the concepts of light and dark representing dogmatic Jedi standards for how it's used.

I know it's a minor point, but I always thought it was significant that to muggles like Motti and Tarkin, Vader referred to the Force only as "the Force." He didn't distinguish between the light and dark for them; just Luke.

[Knife]

Because it simultaneously promotes the idea of their being a distinct Light and Dark Side in opposition to each other, and of a more ambiguous "Grey" interpretation.

I suppose they're not necessarily contradictory, since as you note, Grey can fall between the polar opposites of the Light and Dark Side, but it does make the issue a little more complicate.

I suppose you can make that interpretation. Though, just viewing it as a spectrum is how I usually do it, rather than two or three distinct categories.

Examples please. Are you referring to Jedi who defy the Light Side, or Jedi who defy the authority of the Jedi Council, or Jedi Code? Because those are not the same things.

This gets a bit tricky, since the core function of the Light Side Jedi is to serve others. One of the major flaws in the PT Jedi was they lost sight of that and instead served a defunct and corrupt Republic, not the people. Granted, I'm sure originally it was good to serve the Republic which served the people but at the end it wasn't. Like wise, serving the Council would be in the Council's mind the good thing to do and they represented the majority view of the light side. Qui Gon served people in the moment regardless of the Council. I would say that would make him very light side but in the powers that be camp he was a gray Jedi. Certain points of view and all that.

See, this is where I think a lot of the confusion comes from. People equate "Jedi doctrine" and "Light Side", and then either treat the failures of the Jedi as invalidating the Light Side, or going against the Jedi as proof that one is not following the Light Side. But the Jedi Order is an imperfect creation of imperfect beings. It strives to follow the Light Side, but it is not omniscient nor infallible, and it therefore does not follow that because someone disobeys the Jedi Council, or even the Jedi Code, that they are not Light Side, just as the failings of the Jedi Order do not invalidate the Light Side.

I don't see Qui-Gon as not following the Light Side simply because he disobeys the Jedi Council.

Oh, I agree but the Jedi way is the only real thing we have to go by when it comes to the light side of the Force. We have a couple examples of the Dark side in the Sith and the Witches of Dathomir, but only the Jedi to show where and how and why of the Light Side. We also know their knowledge is flawed, or at least their current interpretation of it is flawed as of the PT and into the OT.

My view is the Force is just the stand in for that universes 'god', and it's heavily implied but never stated. That said, obviously the Jedi don't speak for the Force, but they are what we have to go by. And in universe, there isn't really any other source for light sided knowledge of the Force.

Vader was never really Grey, though, was he? He went Dark Side, then returned to the Light Side (though you could argue that the motives behind his redemption were partially selfish). I suppose you could make a case for pre-fall Anakin being "Grey" if you want, but we see how that ended.

Luke... well, the late Old Republic Jedi might consider him Grey, or more likely in danger of falling to the Dark Side, but I would say that the Old Republic Jedi had, by and large, lost touch with what following the Light Side meant. I prefer to think that the Old Republic Jedi were themselves falling, and that Luke actually moved closer to the Light Side by embracing familial love.

After all, the Old Republic Jedi were advancing a contradictory philosophy, so some component of it must have been in error. They essentially argued against attachment, because fear (of loss) would supposedly lead to the Dark Side. The irony that they were themselves acting out of fear (of the Dark Side) was apparently lost on them.

I'd call Anakin Gray, he often used the Force for self gain. Admittedly he did it to save the people and things he cared about and thusly was a pretty good thing, but in the end he did it to be somewhat selfish because he could not bare to lose those friends and things. And for all the grief people give the Jedi over the attachment thing, it was Anakin who relived his choice with Palpatine and Dooku/Mace with his son on the DS II that showed him he could 'save the day' and be a hero and let go of his attachment. He saved Luke, not so he could be with Luke or rule with Luke, just saved Luke so that Luke could live. It meant giving up his life which he could not make that choice with Padme or even with the Republic and Jedi Order. Back then it was all or nothing. But with Luke, Anakin was redeemed and made the choice he should have made 20 years prior, to do the right thing regardless of the consequences to his personal life.

That said, I suppose it is all about the definitions. What is good and what is bad,light and dark. I don't think being a gray Jedi is a specific thing, rather something that doesn't fit into the rigid 2 category system. Take classic D&D alignment, I don't think a choatically good Jedi would be considered by the Jedi to be light sider and more gray but if what he does helps people then is not he a light sider?

I don't think a Gray sider would just be the middle row of lawfully neutral, true neutral, or choatically neutral.

[Knife]

I still don't see a problem with the Force itself being completely neutral and the concepts of light and dark representing dogmatic Jedi standards for how it's used.

I know it's a minor point, but I always thought it was significant that to muggles like Motti and Tarkin, Vader referred to the Force only as "the Force." He didn't distinguish between the light and dark for them; just Luke.

Too much in universe and cannon things indicating that the Force actually is making people do this and that to an end.

[Galvatron]

Such as? I've never seen a canon example of the Force influencing a being to do anything that they weren't already predisposed toward doing. "The dark side made me do it" is as lame to me as "the devil made me do it."

I always considered being "seduced by the dark side of the Force" as merely the Jedi idea of succumbing to the temptation of unrestrained use of the Force, not some literal Faustian deal with evil incarnate.

[Knife]

The Prophacy, Palpatine seeing everything but his end, the Jedi not seeing their end, Luke with his eyes shut deflecting blaster bolts (does it control me? Yes but it also obeys your command), Luke waiting for the Force to tell him to fire at the DS. There is an awesome scene in the ROTS novel with Obi Wan on the bridge over Coruscant in the battle where it is described how he becomes one with the Force and the galaxy and the room and the ship etc...

[Broken]

Interesting trailer, certainly sparked interest, but the end of the Jedi line did bug me. However, one thing we have to remember is that the new films are already altering/retconning the Force. Before TFA the words "Light Side of the Force" were never once spoken in any of the previous six films. It was always "The Force" and "The Dark Side of the Force". The closest we got was Luke asking Yoda about the good and bad sides of the Force while he was training. And although its background/author WOG, back in 1999 before TPM came out, Lucas in a Time magazine interview compared the Dark Side (or might have been the Sith, I'm not positive) to a cancer, implying the dangerous, out of balance/nature aspect of the Dark Side vs the whole of the Force. I'm just hoping they don't add a "twist" to the Force, reducing it merely another superpower without the currently intertwined Dark Side and its promises of power in exchange for opening the door to corruption.

[Rhadamantus]

I was distinctly unimpressed. The force, and the skywalker family are all well and good, but I'd like to see the great dramas of the galaxy. Also, how do they still appear to have no capships in the middle of a giant war?

[Galvatron]

The Prophacy, Palpatine seeing everything but his end, the Jedi not seeing their end, Luke with his eyes shut deflecting blaster bolts (does it control me? Yes but it also obeys your command), Luke waiting for the Force to tell him to fire at the DS.

Meaning? Yoda said that the future is difficult to see because it's always in motion.

[Knife]

And yet was seen well enough to have a prophecy.

[Galvatron]

True, a very ambiguous prophecy with an ambiguous outcome. Almost as if whoever foresaw it had difficulty seeing the future.

[Adam Reynolds]

Of course, that's problematic too, because no reasonable government is going to want wandering individuals (i.e. vigilantes) taking matters into their own hands within its own territory. Especially if those individuals have superhuman powers.

Its the Superhero registration/Sokovia Accords all over again.

Which is why you need a proper Jedi order at least loosely in the style of that of the Old Republic. While the Jedi did reach the point at which they lost their way by becoming tied to the Republic at all costs, the idea of an organized Jedi Order acting in a paramilitary fashion under a democratic host government is the least bad way to operate.

What I have in mind is that the Jedi set themselves up specifically as an institution to train Force users. If an individual breaks their rules, they'll disavow them and refuse them higher-level training, but take no further action against them.

When one graduates, they can use their powers however they see fit. If a graduate wants to join the local military or police and serve under their rules, they can do that. If they want to run for office, they can do that. If they want to cheat at gambling, or work as a stage magician, or just have a normal life and keep their powers to themselves, they can do that too.

The problem with that idea is that properly trained Jedi are far more capable than any local military or police officers would otherwise be and would thus be very difficult to successfully integrate with either body. To some extent, the abilities of Jedi are also multiplied when they are in small groups, which would be harder with a body like this.

Jedi really are an effective jack of all trades unit, capable of serving as anything from special investigators to commandos as needed. Those skills would go to waste in any other context, and with the empathetic abilities of a Jedi, it would be emotionally hard to not use them. The gambler and stage magician would find themselves feeling an emotional pull to help people, likely ending up with them serving as a vigilante one way or another. Kanan ran into this problem while attempting to hide from the Empire, leading to him meeting Hera. Without the pressure to hide, this desire would be even more powerful.

Also, cheating at gambling is in fact illegal in almost any reasonable context. Actually allowing that is a possible life path is problematic. Though as a side note that would actually be an interesting exercise to do with Jedi trainees, in which they test their abilities to both read each other and cloak their own emotions and intentions.

As for policing Force users... we know their are non-Force ways to bring down a Force user with sufficient technology and training.

Not reliably and not without casualties. Superior numbers are adequate, except when said Force user doesn't want to be found. There is a reason the Empire used Inquisitors rather than merely relying on bounty hunters and ISB officers.

Such as? I've never seen a canon example of the Force influencing a being to do anything that they weren't already predisposed toward doing. "The dark side made me do it" is as lame to me as "the devil made me do it."

I always considered being "seduced by the dark side of the Force" as merely the Jedi idea of succumbing to the temptation of unrestrained use of the Force, not some literal Faustian deal with evil incarnate.

Given that the Dark Side is an actual physical force, it is hardly a fitting comparison.

I have always considered it to be a consequence of the fact that Jedi feel emotions more strongly due to their empathetic abilities. Thus resorting to anger, fear, or aggression makes Jedi fall with almost no effort.