Last Jedi first trailer.

[Galvatron]

Which is why you need a proper Jedi order at least loosely in the style of that of the Old Republic. While the Jedi did reach the point at which they lost their way by becoming tied to the Republic at all costs, the idea of an organized Jedi Order acting in a paramilitary fashion under a democratic host government is the least bad way to operate.

Perhaps the old order originally regulated itself without Senate oversight. This may have worked for millennia until the Jedi-Sith War, after which the Republic was so worried about another such war that they decided tighter control of the order was necessary.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, like I said, I think any government would, quite rightfully, be wary of allowing a paramilitary order with superpowers to operate without oversight in its territory.

[Galvatron]

I'd expect a galactic government encompassing millions of sapient species, each with myriad different abilities of their own, to have somewhat more relaxed standards when it comes to regulating people with "superpowers."

[The Romulan Republic]

True. But even without that... vigilantism is not something any competent, stable government is likely to look too kindly on. It probably would only be tolerated if the government's own forces were utterly incapable of keeping the peace and enforcing the law.

[Galvatron]

If the Jedi were true to their teachings and only used the Force for knowledge and defense, it's entirely possible that they were able to keep the peace without resorting to vigilantism.

[The Romulan Republic]

That's a fair point.

I expect any government would likely still want to exercise some oversight on such an organization within its territory, but less would be required.

[Galvatron]

Governments always want more control. That's why I think the Jedi-Sith War was the catalyst that finally gave the Senate reasonable cause to nationalize the order (and also, perhaps, demilitarize the Republic).

[Patroklos]

True. But even without that... vigilantism is not something any competent, stable government is likely to look too kindly on. It probably would only be tolerated if the government's own forces were utterly incapable of keeping the peace and enforcing the law.

This is just your real world biases showing. In a galaxy as large as the Republic or Empire or whatever else, the galactic government is a million miles removed from any individual compared to your interaction with any Earth national government. Hell, even a planetary government is beyond our ever day expectations. Where their is government of course, a giant plot mechanic of the universe is that it is so big vast swaths of it are essentially the Wild West in vacuum. Local government may care, but if the scale of Jedi vigilantism is just killing one bad dude out of a trillion every few years because they have a bad habit of projecting lightning out of their fingertips not only would a Republic not care, they would never know about it.

People seem to constantly forget just how big this galaxy is. The plight of whole sectors is to the Galactic Senate what the plight of a condo building in the suburbs of Santa Fe is to the Russian Duma.

[Knife]

I give Ender credit for expressing something I agree with but didn't think of. It is a spiritual event but also what people do with it. It's not about just believing in the good side, it's about doing the good side regardless of the consequences. Saw is the perfect example of the wrong way that feeds the dark side. Luke dose right without doing wrong. That is the important part. There were plenty of people willing to do evil to fix a wrong. Luke symbolizes the 'doing right to fix a wrong'.

[The Romulan Republic]

True. But even without that... vigilantism is not something any competent, stable government is likely to look too kindly on. It probably would only be tolerated if the government's own forces were utterly incapable of keeping the peace and enforcing the law.

This is just your real world biases showing.

I could just as easily comment on your biases, but that's beside the point here.

In a galaxy as large as the Republic or Empire or whatever else, the galactic government is a million miles removed from any individual compared to your interaction with any Earth national government. Hell, even a planetary government is beyond our ever day expectations. Where their is government of course, a giant plot mechanic of the universe is that it is so big vast swaths of it are essentially the Wild West in vacuum. Local government may care, but if the scale of Jedi vigilantism is just killing one bad dude out of a trillion every few years because they have a bad habit of projecting lightning out of their fingertips not only would a Republic not care, they would never know about it.

Two things:

1. Jedi and especially Sith may be individuals in a vast galaxy, but they are inordinately powerful individuals. 10,000 Jedi was considered sufficient as peacekeepers for the entire Old Republic.

Two Sith (well, four over a couple of decades) killed it.

Sith in that sense are more analogous to major natural disasters than individual criminals.

2. I agree that day to day enforcement would probably likely be handled mostly at the local/Sector level, but that doesn't mean their is no enforcement. It just means that the Galactic government has that particular job filed under "local governments' responsibility", unless a rogue Force user actually assembles an army or something.

People seem to constantly forget just how big this galaxy is. The plight of whole sectors is to the Galactic Senate what the plight of a condo building in the suburbs of Santa Fe is to the Russian Duma.

This is somewhat an aside, but people also tend to forget the old saying about how one person is a tragedy and a million is a statistic.

My point being that things that are statically small can still garner disproportionate attention from the public and even the government because they push peoples' cultural and psychological buttons. Like how every now and then, some random murder will make national news for weeks.

I expect rogue Force users, especially given galactic history, would push a lot of peoples' buttons.

[Galvatron]

Two Sith (well, four over a couple of decades) killed it.

Two Sith and a giant military. By themselves, Sidious and Vader (or Maul or Tyrannus) would have undoubtedly caused turmoil, but the combined might of the entire Jedi order should have had little trouble stopping them.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is why the Republic demilitarized after the Jedi-Sith War.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, but the point is that the tiny, hidden Sith Order were able to build up their power to the point where they could wield a galactic-scale military.

Force users don't have to be numerous to be deadly threats even on a galactic scale, if they operate intelligently, through manipulation and proxies, rather than simply direct force. Vader wasn't joking, and he wasn't wrong, when he said that the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force. He'd seen proof of it in action.

[Galvatron]

Yeah, but the point is that the tiny, hidden Sith Order were able to build up their power to the point where they could wield a galactic-scale military.

Force users don't have to be numerous to be deadly threats even on a galactic scale, if they operate intelligently, through manipulation and proxies, rather than simply direct force. Vader wasn't joking, and he wasn't wrong, when he said that the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force. He'd seen proof of it in action.

Which could be precisely why the Rule of Two was instituted. Before the Rule of Two, yeah, the Sith were able to conquer the galaxy and rule it for a time, but they eventually lost control because they a) couldn't maintain unity and b) failed to exterminate the Jedi.

Palpatine's scheme (and Darth Bane's doctrine) ostensibly rectified both of those mistakes which very nearly resulted in an everlasting Sith dynasty.

[Patroklos]

I could just as easily comment on your biases, but that's beside the point here.

Which one? Of living in a galactic scale civilization of trillions beings? SWEET!

1. Jedi and especially Sith may be individuals in a vast galaxy, but they are inordinately powerful individuals. 10,000 Jedi was considered sufficient as peacekeepers for the entire Old Republic.

Two Sith (well, four over a couple of decades) killed it.

Sith in that sense are more analogous to major natural disasters than individual criminals.

The Jedi were hardly the sum total of peacekeepers for the entire Republic.

And no, they are just individual criminals. My point is that had the Jedi not been wasting their time negotiating trade disputes, bog standard law enforcement or any other activity you want to shoe horn into their theocratic official capacity, they would just be roving around looking for Sith 100% of the time. Presumably finding them more often and sooner than we observed, BEFORE they are as powerful and destructive as we observed.

The story of the prequels is actually much about the Jedi abandoning their responsibilities ("Sith Lords are our speciality!") to play space courtiers engaged in political intrigues than Palpantine being brilliant. All three movies are just chronicling the consequences of their willful failure. We were just watching thieves empty the safe while the shopkeeper was asleep in the back.

2. I agree that day to day enforcement would probably likely be handled mostly at the local/Sector level, but that doesn't mean their is no enforcement. It just means that the Galactic government has that particular job filed under "local governments' responsibility", unless a rogue Force user actually assembles an army or something.

I think they would have served their mission better by maybe having day jobs in law enforcement and related fields so they can use those resources and be connected to the goings on of the galaxy, but kept their Jedi abilities secret and the Jedi Order as a separate and nongovernmental secret society as such. That way they don't get corrupted by or bogged down in non Jedi stuff. It also makes it harder for the Sith to hide, because anyone seeing Jedi type shenanigans would recognize it as some truly out their astonishing deeds which would instantly make them stand out for discovery. As it was you could read minds, levitate shit, pull out a light saber or do any other Force ability and as long as you were wearing earth tone hippie gear and tell them "Jedi business!" people just roll their eyes and keep walking (The Jedi really are just unaccountable secret police after all).

As for local law enforcement I am sure this is the case on Alderaan and Kuat or even the relatively richer parts of individual outer rim shit hole worlds and other locals like Bespin for instance. But as we are shown over and over again on screen there is no such law enforcement on Tatooine or Jakku. When somebody chops off an arm or shoots a patron in the gut at a local bar they didn't call the regular Tommy on the corner because he doesn't exit. They turned to the temporary guys with power who just happened to be there, Vader's storm troopers there for no related reason, for help. They are just reaching out to the guys with the biggest guns they think will help, just like an some tumbleweed country townsfolk making the sort-of-okay-not-a-complete-asshole gunslinger sheriff when they need protection or appealing the cavalry troop passing through. The Wild West. In space.

This is somewhat an aside, but people also tend to forget the old saying about how one person is a tragedy and a million is a statistic.

My point being that things that are statically small can still garner disproportionate attention from the public and even the government because they push peoples' cultural and psychological buttons. Like how every now and then, some random murder will make national news for weeks.

Only a very small number of them though. Of all the warcrimes committed each year what percent make it to TV or print? Of all the murders how many get a podcast? I can't think of many 1 million victim genocides that escaped scrutiny of some sort. There is probably some third rate academic churning out articles and books each year about even then smallest genocide. Even if they happened a century ago.

I expect rogue Force users, especially given galactic history, would push a lot of peoples' buttons.

Why? According to the films the Sith have been extinct for thousands of years. They only reason any one in the contemporary stories gives a shit about force users is because the Jedi decided they were going to be the Rasputins of the Republic and in doing so let the Sith grow anew. Without that a force user in the film timeframe would be a curiosity, and would probably never become anything more than that if there were Jedi around doing their damn self declared job rather than being shit librarians or raising slave children to be genocidal murderers.

[Crazedwraith]

What exactly do you think the role of the Jedi should be? Hunting and exterminating Sith all the time?

What we see them do in the Prequels falls firmly in their assigned role of 'Guardians of peace and justice' as far as I can tell. Until the Clone Wars at least.

[Knife]

As for local law enforcement I am sure this is the case on Alderaan and Kuat or even the relatively richer parts of individual outer rim shit hole worlds and other locals like Bespin for instance. But as we are shown over and over again on screen there is no such law enforcement on Tatooine or Jakku. When somebody chops off an arm or shoots a patron in the gut at a local bar they didn't call the regular Tommy on the corner because he doesn't exit. They turned to the temporary guys with power who just happened to be there, Vader's storm troopers there for no related reason, for help. They are just reaching out to the guys with the biggest guns they think will help, just like an some tumbleweed country townsfolk making the sort-of-okay-not-a-complete-asshole gunslinger sheriff when they need protection or appealing the cavalry troop passing through. The Wild West. In space.

Bad example. Tatooine was not Republic territory in the PT. Jedi or Republic police would not have authority there. Durring ANH, I'm pretty sure there was a permanent Imperial presence there, not just landing parties from the Devastator.

[Galvatron]

I never got the impression that the main purpose of the Jedi was rooting out Sith or even that Sith were common enough to need rooting out. There should have been plenty of injustice throughout the galaxy in the form of political corruption, piracy, slavery and assorted other forms of organized crime to keep them busy for millennia.

[Darth Tanner]

It would be a bizarre organisation that solely exists to prevent splinter groups of it from existing when they believe such groups were wiped out 1000 years ago.

[Galvatron]

I'd be interested to know more about the Church of the Force and to find out how closely associated with the Jedi it was (if it was at all). I know what the wiki says, but I'd be surprised if it didn't exist in some form or another long before the purge.

[Patroklos]

What exactly do you think the role of the Jedi should be? Hunting and exterminating Sith all the time?

Given what we observe as the consequence of them not doing that? Hell fucking yes!

If I told you could trade 10,000 years of 10K Jedi maybe contributing .001% of the galaxies law enforcement needs with not having the Clone wars and its trillions of casualties, Alderaan destroyed, 30 years of the Empire and whatever its motley collection of cartoonish to legit villany entails, and avoid the galaxy shattering follow up war to overthrow it along with whatever calamities the instability from that will bring with it for the next few centuries you would be a fool to turn it down.

What we see them do in the Prequels falls firmly in their assigned role of 'Guardians of peace and justice' as far as I can tell. Until the Clone Wars at least.

And that's the problem. They have decided to white knight the galaxy for every sundry public hiccup even though there is zero reason why they have to be the ones to do this. There is in fact a dire threat out there that just anyone can't counter and the Jedi have proven over and over again they are the only ones who can. Multiple galaxy shattering calamities have resulted from this threat. This should be their priority. Their "speciality" as that pompous douche would say, proving that the Jedi know this deep down institutionally themselves but that's not as much fun as hobnobbing with the Chancellor and banging whatever cute debutante senator crosses their path.

Bad example. Tatooine was not Republic territory in the PT. Jedi or Republic police would not have authority there. Durring ANH, I'm pretty sure there was a permanent Imperial presence there, not just landing parties from the Devastator.

Whether it was Republic territory or not is irrelevant, we are talking about local law enforcement. When someone gets stabbed in a bar fight its not the FBI that shows up. Its not even the state police. Its the local sheriff or police department. In a galactic civilization there are probably a few dozen more layers of planetary region/continental/global police, then system law enforcement officers, maybe some colonial authorities if you are a territory or another planet, then whatever sector security apparatus exists, then a regional government, and then MAYBE you get to some galactic wide jurisdiction.

I am not sure why people think the Republican of even the Imperial authorities even exist on most worlds. Most of the galactic citizenry probably has no interaction with galactic government of any flavor in their lifetimes.

As for the source of the storm troopers on Tatooine I guess neither of us can disprove the other definitively, but it seems like an awfully big coincidence given the opening of the ANH. Maybe if you go with the remastered version where they have local animal mounts it leans more towards a per Vader presence, but then you also have to accept that Han didn't shoot first. Do you really think that trade is worth it?

I never got the impression that the main purpose of the Jedi was rooting out Sith or even that Sith were common enough to need rooting out. There should have been plenty of injustice throughout the galaxy in the form of political corruption, piracy, slavery and assorted other forms of organized crime to keep them busy for millennia.

It would be a bizarre organization that solely exists to prevent splinter groups of it from existing when they believe such groups were wiped out 1000 years ago.

This is essentially the point of the existence of the X-men. They spend most of their time fending off other mutants, a bit less defending themselves generally from the government. But they do both so that they can kick back and live normal lives. At no point do they decide they will just unilaterally declare themselves peacekeepers of the world and insert themselves into beat cop duties let alone into the US/China trade negotiations. I am also unaware of the X-men assuming the duties of the Pentagon and fighting a global war on behalf of the United States. I am a bit behind on my comic book lore though...

This is actually the plot point for all most superheros. They spend most of their time defending against super villians with similar or equivalent powers. Many times they are actually related to each other or got their powers from the same source. Even characters like Batman who are supposedly sourced in fighting crime generally end up spending most of their time fighting super criminals. Some examples are co opted by the government like for example the Avengers. Then again the Avengers, their recent live action move incarnation anyway, is another example of why this is generally a bad thing.

[Darth Tanner]

Given what we observe as the consequence of them not doing that? Hell fucking yes!

But how do you maintain an organisation on an aim they think they have achieved 1000 years ago. The X men can get away with it as they have a new villain appear every week.

And that's the problem. They have decided to white knight the galaxy for every sundry public hiccup even though there is zero reason why they have to be the ones to do this.

Have they, we see them act as ambassadors to resolve a major political conflict at the direct request of the supreme chancellor, there is no evidence they are 'wasting time' going after mior criminals ect.

There is in fact a dire threat out there that just anyone can't counter and the Jedi have proven over and over again they are the only ones who can.

A threat no one knows about until TPM

Most of the galactic citizenry probably has no interaction with galactic government of any flavor in their lifetimes.

We see the empire has direct interaction down to the local street merchant level even on distant rim worlds.

Maybe if you go with the remastered version where they have local animal mounts it leans more towards a per Vader presence, but then you also have to accept that Han didn't shoot first. Do you really think that trade is worth it?

Dewbacks were there in the original, they simply barely moved so were kept to background shots.

At no point do they decide they will just unilaterally declare themselves peacekeepers of the world and insert themselves into beat cop duties let alone into the US/China trade negotiations.

But if they were generally accepted as wise and fair negotiators they probably would be sent into resolve the Israel Palestine conflict or to sort out the Somali pirates if the navy was having difficulty tracking them down. It might also be different if the X men had been the leaders that brought the world through a major war with an evil empire theat they wiped out.

This is actually the plot point for all most superheros. They spend most of their time defending against super villians with similar or equivalent powers.

And when they run out of super villains?

[Kojiro]

Has anyone seen this?

From here.

He told ABC News: “When I read [the script], I told [director, Rian Johnson], ‘I fundamentally disagree with virtually everything you’ve decided about my character’.”

Responding in particular to the shocking moment in the ‘Last Jedi’ trailer when Luke says it’s time to “end the Jedi”, Mark revealed: “It was as shocking for me to read what Rian had written as I’m sure it will be for the audience.”

I have to admit that worries me.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, things can change over the course of a production, and I'll withhold judgement for now, but this sounds an awful lot like a director trying to be "edgy" and "relevant" and just pissing on the established themes and characters.

[Kojiro]

Yeah I don't want to run around screaming the sky is falling but if something is going to be wrong with the final product, this is pretty much exactly what I'd expect to find. What worries me is that most of the time cast and crew will do nothing but praise/promote their film, only turning on it or disowning it once it's clear it's a failure/flop. To have Hamill come out at this point, months after shooting finished when they must have preliminary cuts, is nothing but worrying.

[The Romulan Republic]

Of course, without knowing the full context, what's changed during the course of the production, and exactly what Hamill's complaints were, its hardly conclusive. And I know their will be lots of people just looking for an excuse to bash a new Star Wars film, so I take any criticisms with a grain of salt.

But yeah, its worrying.