General Empire vs Borg musings

[Q99]

How you get an anti-coagulant effect on an energy weapon, I have no idea

it's possible that they fire plasma bolts that have disruptor style effect on target at high settings but on low settings they have anti-coagulant effects (either due what the plasma is made of or some other reasons) but I'm speculating here.

See, that it's different setting is something I get, my question is how do you have anti-coagulant effects in a plasma weapon to begin with! It's not a chemical or something, how does one convince a high-energy beam to make a wound that bleeds easily?

[Solauren]

How you get an anti-coagulant effect on an energy weapon, I have no idea

it's possible that they fire plasma bolts that have disruptor style effect on target at high settings but on low settings they have anti-coagulant effects (either due what the plasma is made of or some other reasons) but I'm speculating here.

See, that it's different setting is something I get, my question is how do you have anti-coagulant effects in a plasma weapon to begin with! It's not a chemical or something, how does one convince a high-energy beam to make a wound that bleeds easily?

A secondary discharge behind the main plasma bolt that had the anti-coagulant in it would do nicely.

Plasma blast does the tissue damage, followed immediately by the anti-coagulant that prevents the wound from sealing/burning over.

[Q99]

A secondary discharge behind the main plasma bolt that had the anti-coagulant in it would do nicely.

Plasma blast does the tissue damage, followed immediately by the anti-coagulant that prevents the wound from sealing/burning over.

But, like, a discharge with something actual chemical in it?

[Lord Revan]

How you get an anti-coagulant effect on an energy weapon, I have no idea

it's possible that they fire plasma bolts that have disruptor style effect on target at high settings but on low settings they have anti-coagulant effects (either due what the plasma is made of or some other reasons) but I'm speculating here.

See, that it's different setting is something I get, my question is how do you have anti-coagulant effects in a plasma weapon to begin with! It's not a chemical or something, how does one convince a high-energy beam to make a wound that bleeds easily?

well plasma is either ionized gas in which case it can transform/revert to a chemical once it cools enough or it's an exotic gas (for example warp plasma) I can't remember a case where the term "plasma" was used for radiation (aka pure energy) IIRC even the Romulan Plasma Torps are some form of matter in them since you could break them apart with phasers (just not enough or at least fast enough to make them harmless).

[Q99]

Being plasma tends to destroy complex chemicals though. High energy like that is very good at turning chemical compounds into much simpler affairs. And heck, high energy burns normally make coagulation extra-easy because it comes with cauterization.


Hm, but it does occur to me, what if it leaves some sort of lingering energy field...? That'd be interesting.

[Solauren]

A secondary discharge behind the main plasma bolt that had the anti-coagulant in it would do nicely.

Plasma blast does the tissue damage, followed immediately by the anti-coagulant that prevents the wound from sealing/burning over.

But, like, a discharge with something actual chemical in it?

Why not? We can fire bullets that glow in the dark or start fires, at our level of tech. I'm sure the dominion, after hundreds of years, could come up with a nice chemical that could shot into plasma burns to fuck them up further.

[Q99]

Why not? We can fire bullets that glow in the dark or start fires, at our level of tech. I'm sure the dominion, after hundreds of years, could come up with a nice chemical that could shot into plasma burns to fuck them up further.

Well, yea, we can do that but bullets are solid objects and plasma is a high-energy gas. It's pretty darn different, chemicals would be affected by the beam. Basically you need something that can survive being shot by the gun.

[Solauren]

Why not? We can fire bullets that glow in the dark or start fires, at our level of tech. I'm sure the dominion, after hundreds of years, could come up with a nice chemical that could shot into plasma burns to fuck them up further.

Well, yea, we can do that but bullets are solid objects and plasma is a high-energy gas. It's pretty darn different, chemicals would be affected by the beam. Basically you need something that can survive being shot by the gun.

Like I said, double shot. First shot is the plasma bolt, and 1/10th of a second later, whatever chemical they spray with.

Their is also the possibility they are using transporters beams (ala the Sniper that Enri Dax helped stop in the last season) to beam something against the wound a second later.

[Khaat]

If you are going to "transporter" something into a target, why stop with (somehow species-universal) anti-coagulant? Why not micro-explosives?

Hells, at least 40K uses a laser to push a sliver loaded with toxins, not the other way around.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I just assumed the anti-coagulants were on the blade/bayonet thing, not the plasma shot part. Which would make more sense, since logically plasma shots should cauterise wounds so they shouldn't bleed at all.

[seanrobertson]

Eternal,

That's an excellent thought, but when Dax was injured, it was from an energy pulse :/

[Eternal_Freedom]

Eternal,

That's an excellent thought, but when Dax was injured, it was from an energy pulse :/

Oh bollocks.

[Q99]

Like I said, double shot. First shot is the plasma bolt, and 1/10th of a second later, whatever chemical they spray with.

Their is also the possibility they are using transporters beams (ala the Sniper that Enri Dax helped stop in the last season) to beam something against the wound a second later.

I guess you could do a spray, but there's not anything that indicates a spray mechanism (in dialog or visuals or gun design, it's got a flat nose with a single emitter hole, no details on what could even possibly be a secondary exit)... and it still feels off to me.

Transporter beams, completely separate high energy mechanism, so I'd say that's out. You'd have a transporter based gun or a plasma beam, not combine the two, especially not for such a secondary function

[Lord Revan]

Something that came to me maybe plasma guns aren't "uses ionized gas as ammo" but rather "uses energizied warp coolant aka warp plasma as ammo" it would explain why it could be anti-coagulant since we know from First Contact that Warp Plasma is at least corrosive to organic matter and is not in fact ionizied gas but something else. while it doesn't solve Jem'hadar weapons acting like phasers/disruptors at least it would explain the bleeding.

[Solauren]

Something that came to me maybe plasma guns aren't "uses ionized gas as ammo" but rather "uses energizied warp coolant aka warp plasma as ammo" it would explain why it could be anti-coagulant since we know from First Contact that Warp Plasma is at least corrosive to organic matter and is not in fact ionizied gas but something else. while it doesn't solve Jem'hadar weapons acting like phasers/disruptors at least it would explain the bleeding.

Combination weapon cause the Dominion's a bunch of jerks?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Something that came to me maybe plasma guns aren't "uses ionized gas as ammo" but rather "uses energizied warp coolant aka warp plasma as ammo" it would explain why it could be anti-coagulant since we know from First Contact that Warp Plasma is at least corrosive to organic matter and is not in fact ionizied gas but something else. while it doesn't solve Jem'hadar weapons acting like phasers/disruptors at least it would explain the bleeding.

THe corrosive stuff from First Contact was actually plasma coolant, not warp plasma.

[Q99]

I'm just going to headcanon and technobabble it up that the beams 'leave a residual polarion charge that stops activity like platelet attachment because the charge makes the cells push against each other and not stick.'

[fluxuouse]

when discussing how blasters would do against borg shields we should not just think about it relative to phasers but also disruptors and other types of weapons in star trek (I know i'm just jumping in but I have been following along with the argument for a while now *cough* a few months *cough*)

[Q99]

when discussing how blasters would do against borg shields we should not just think about it relative to phasers but also disruptors and other types of weapons in star trek (I know i'm just jumping in but I have been following along with the argument for a while now *cough* a few months *cough*)

Information we have very little data on.

We do know the Klingons engaged one cube and suffered heavy losses in a flashback (and the Cube in question returned to Borg space with Klingons as well as humans- presumably picked up from a meetup with the Wolf 359 Cube). No other Alpha Quadrant power have engaged the Borg on screen, and none in personal combat.

Ship-wise, the weapons we've seen used against Cube are the Federation mix (phasers, normal and pulse, photons, quantums, deflector beam), Klingon distruptors, Species 10026 Modulating Phaser Pulse (which worked well til Seven figured out an adaptation), and 8472 bio-beams.

Personal wise, we've seen Federation phasers (standard and compression rifle), holobullets, 8472, and... I think that's it.

[Lord Revan]

We've seen melee weapons as used against the borg (other then Species 8472 claws that is) with either federation rifles used as clubs or Worf using his blade against them.

[Batman]

Not to mention Data beating the shit out of them in HTH.

[Q99]

Yes, quite, and conventional melee, though the borg seem to prefer physical adaptations for that (and, I mean, encouraging enemies to get within range of assimilation tubes is not a bad thing! They got Data, after all).

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Yes, quite, and conventional melee, though the borg seem to prefer physical adaptations for that (and, I mean, encouraging enemies to get within range of assimilation tubes is not a bad thing! They got Data, after all).

They could do that quite easily by making their ships' interiors more maze-like. If instead of long, straight corridors they have many corners and switchbacks it forces enemies to close to those distances anyway, neutralising their range advantage.

[vengence]

I apologize for adding this late. I was reading through the part about phasers/ blasters being weak because they cant break a crate. I found an interesting excerpt from the Atomic Rockets site. Atomic rockets

I'm assuming a weapon designed to penetrate ~30cm in soft body tissue. This gives about 15cm in bone or plastic, 5cm in brick or concrete, or 2.5cm in steel or most ceramics. Synthetics won't be very good at stopping energy weapons, even tough ones like kevlar, but you might be able to find a ceramic that could stop a laser beam with a centimeter's thickness or so. Particle beams are tougher to stop; it mostly comes down to sticking mass in the way without regard to material properties.

If a Phaser is optimized for soft body tissue and barrels made from material resistant to phasers like an advanced ceramic polymer and we can create a scenario were people can hide behind random crates.

[Q99]

Makes sense.