Esquire wrote:I note, for the [many]-eth time, that the figures cited in the AOTC ICS were derived from on-screen evidence; most particularly, as I recall, from scaling from the Death Star and from the ESB asteroid vaporization scene.
Actually reactor outputs are derived from acceleration calculations.
Which is just as well because Lucasfilm have established several times that unknown factors are used to achieve Death Star firepower; at some point, they might drop the words 'mass lightening' into Rebels, and then the ICS calcs are invalidated, but until then, they are indeed valid enough and you can work it out and get similar numbers.
He is however, 100% right that they'd run out of fuel quickly, I've covered this before actually using AotC ICS quotes, the AotC ICS itself points out that Star Wars warships have only a few hours fuel at full power. And while they'll need nothing like that power to engage Star Trek ships and win, they do need it to use their hyperdrives. AotC ICS itself says that fuel exhaustion will occur from one or two transgalactic journeys.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
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The main problems with using those basis, ultimately, is almost no-one in SF factors in how much power it takes to accelerate, and almost no-one factors in fuel (or if they do, not based on any calculation).
Just want to chime in hear. I personally like to think in my own little head canon that Star Trek and Star Wars exist in the same universe. As for there being different physics we see people stars planets in both Star Wars and Star Trek and those things wouldn't exist if the laws of physics were only slightly off compared to real life. As for Lightsabers I like to think of it as something more exotic then just Plasma as we know it and probably has something to do with the force since Kyber crystals play a vital role in how Lightsabers operate. How I like to suspend my disbelief with the other things like hypermatter hyperspace and so on is I like to think of it as things that we haven't discovered yet.
A lot of stuff has physics that clearly work differently and in mutually contradictory manners, but still have people, planets, and stars. Authors, after all, aren't working from models of physical laws, but putting in physics and technology where they wish.
SW and ST are relatively close as these things go, but there's still differences.
Q99 wrote:The main problems with using those basis, ultimately, is almost no-one in SF factors in how much power it takes to accelerate, and almost no-one factors in fuel (or if they do, not based on any calculation).
This is how you get the biggatons, and honestly, the biggatons are a little absurd.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
Q99 wrote:The main problems with using those basis, ultimately, is almost no-one in SF factors in how much power it takes to accelerate, and almost no-one factors in fuel (or if they do, not based on any calculation).
This is how you get the biggatons, and honestly, the biggatons are a little absurd.
Definitely. Never trust any calc that has never been demonstrated on screen/page even once, and be weary of any that happens only once.
Heck, I can make a better argument for Trek having those kinds of numbers (I'd reverse engineer the 8472 planet killer, note other ships have survived combat with them... anyway, there'd be flaws in that argument and I don't suggest it to be true, just saying that there's more actual on-screenage there that one *could* use).
Flipside, there is some very sensible asteroid-based calcs that put their mid-level guns at very respectable ranges, and we've seen multiple times. Those calcs I trust.
If we're going by legends and the accepted belief here that Star Wars would wipe the floor with the Trekverse, then I see Vader simply building his own empire out here.
As others have said, why would he want to go home to Palpatine? Vader isn't incompetent politically, and he doesn't buy into all of the racist stuff about aliens, or indeed much of the Imperial propaganda in general. He sees it for what it is: something to sell the masses to earn loyalty. With this in mind, he would act how his intuition and strategic sense tells him to, not how a random Imperial moff or admiral might. Just had to get that out of the way.
Star Destroyers, of which there are four in Death Squadron, carry six years worth of consumables. Also listed in the Imperial Sourcebook is 36,00 metric tons of cargo space. It is common practice in WEG books to list cargo space as space available when fully stocked with consumables. So there is plenty of overflow for whatever cargo the Empire thinks it should steal. Enough, in fact, to steal the entire 1945 Enterprise. Per Destroyer.
The Executor also has six years of consumables carried aboard, which, when you look at the disparity in crew sizes, is a hell of a lot more than a Star Destroyer carries. It also has 250,000 metric tons of extra space. It carries more than 250,00 crew, 38,000 stormtroopers, and an entire Imperial Army corps.
The point of all this is to show just how massive the Empire was. These ships were tasked to go into space, find some rebels, kill them, and keep doing so for half a decade. With this in mind, I find it doubtful that anything would prevent them from quickly building up some form of supply network. Rudimentary when compared to the Empire? Certainly. Enough to keep them fighting until they could capture some Federation factories? Even more so.
Plus, any ship encountered could easily be captured (250 ion cannons on the Executor) and recycled, its crew enslaved, its food stocks reappropriated.
After the first few battles, no Imperial would ever have to work a farm again. Slave labor would handle it. I'm not too familiar with Star Trek (I watched Into Darkness and the one before it), but it sounds like there is a sentient species in the vicinity of the arrival zone. They wouldn't last a year.
In fact, this gives me a great idea. With their massive cargo capacity and total impunity to Star Trek weapons, I can see Vader simply cruising from planet to planet, stopping long enough to enslave the local population and work them to death mining and manufacturing while Probe Droids map a route to the next target. Anything that can't be stolen would be destroyed. Naturally, this is only effective in the short term. Eventually, Vader would settle down and turn to empire building, most likely after he'd mapped out a sufficient portion of the galaxy. But still, it's fun to imagine Death Squadron like a swarm of locusts destroying everything in the Milky Way.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace
The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren
I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain
One thing I forgot: someone said that the 501st would follow Vader rather than stay loyal to the Emperor. This is wrong. No stormtrooper would ever intentionally betray the Emperor, in action or in thought. If he could get back to the Empire, but stayed instead, Vader would have to keep quiet about it and pretend he was doing everything in his power to return to the Emperor, at least until he trained his own military to replace the stormtroopers and built some ships to replace the Star Destroyers.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace
The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren
I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain
These are Stormtroopers, not programmed clones, and Vader's one specifically. Lesser commanders than Vader have brought Stormtroopers into rebellion, and cut off from the Empire there's really no chance they'd be anything but his IMO.
In the works cited above, it is stated that no stormtrooper can EVER knowingly act against the wishes of the Emperor. The stormtroopers you mention were either conned or not stormtroopers, just Army troopers wearing the armor. The 501st is a stormtrooper unit, and therefore cannot act in a manner that would place someone else's wishes above those of the Emperor.
Also, about the clone thing; in ANH, Leia questions the authenticity of Luke's disguise based on his height. Isn't that a weird thing to do if you can't rely on stormtroopers being exactly the same height? Regardless of what you think of that, the 501st actually IS a clone unit, mostly carryover from the days of the GAR.
Plus, the key part about their disobedience is reliant upon there being a way back home. To quote myself:
If he could get back to the Empire, but stayed instead
If there is no way home, they obey Vader as the logical successor. They would want to build an empire out here in the hopes of eventually rejoining the GFFA Empire. Only if Vader planned to usurp the original Empire would they fight back.
One last thing: this is only the stormtroopers. There are other failsafes. Deep cover agents whose only purpose is to prevent a craft from defecting. Even if stormtroopers aren't absolutely loyal, these bastards would be.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace
The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren
I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain
KraytKing wrote:Also, about the clone thing; in ANH, Leia questions the authenticity of Luke's disguise based on his height. Isn't that a weird thing to do if you can't rely on stormtroopers being exactly the same height?
Nope. Lots of military units, especially units that have to look good on a parade ground, have minimum height requirements. Partly because a big block of marching soldiers look better if none of them look like a twelve year old dressed up in daddy's armor. Partly because height as a general proxy for overall physique and strength. And partly because it greatly simplifies the design of uniforms, body armor, seats on vehicles, and so on, if they only have to fit a specific narrow range of body sizes.
Luke is a callow youth who grew up on a desert planet. It would hardly be surprising if he's "a little short for a stormtrooper."
Regardless of what you think of that, the 501st actually IS a clone unit, mostly carryover from the days of the GAR.
KraytKing wrote:In the works cited above, it is stated that no stormtrooper can EVER knowingly act against the wishes of the Emperor. The stormtroopers you mention were either conned or not stormtroopers, just Army troopers wearing the armor. The 501st is a stormtrooper unit, and therefore cannot act in a manner that would place someone else's wishes above those of the Emperor.
Too much canon information contradicts that.
Also, about the clone thing; in ANH, Leia questions the authenticity of Luke's disguise based on his height. Isn't that a weird thing to do if you can't rely on stormtroopers being exactly the same height? Regardless of what you think of that, the 501st actually IS a clone unit, mostly carryover from the days of the GAR.
Or the military puts the tallest strongest candidates in Stormtrooper units and people like Luke tend to be pilots, technicians, vehicle crew, etc..
Like, we see recruiting facilities. The 501st may have started out as all clones but the Empire had been using birth-born recruits for some time since then.
Those people didn't do their research. You can't accept every extant source as canon in these debates. Some are simply too far out (Jedi Prince anyone?). List some titles where stormtroopers, not just men in the armor, consciously rebelled against the Emperor, and tell me why it is believable, and then we'll talk. But regardless, he is totally fucked if he doesn't find the sleeper agents aboard his ships.
But let's not devolve into this old argument. Let's stick to the thread.
Also, Simon, what is the last part of your post supposed to mean? Of course I'm confident. While I may not know much about the JSDF, this is a subject I am expert in. Yes, the 501st is a pure clone unit. Of all legions in the Empire, would it not be Vader's Fist to receive this distinction?
EDIT: Adding to the whole source trustworthiness thing, would you trust a Wikipedia article that directly contradicted multiple previous articles, given that ANYONE can write a Wikipedia article? A book which doesn't follow the rules laid down before it should not be trusted without good reason.
Last edited by KraytKing on 2017-05-26 01:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace
The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren
I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain
Crazedwraith wrote:
Canon is the films and the CGI Cartoons. (And possibly books published post-Disney) that's it.
I thought we'd established this was Legends by now. Legends is better written (on average). If it's up for debate, I vote for Legends. Early WEG stuff was pure gold. They totally understood the idea of "story over science," something I find sorely lacking here, not to mention most EU books. Anyway, I digress. This seems to be a Legends thread. Therefore, the canon argument is null and void.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace
The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren
I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain
Crazedwraith wrote:
Canon is the films and the CGI Cartoons. (And possibly books published post-Disney) that's it.
I thought we'd established this was Legends by now. Legends is better written (on average). If it's up for debate, I vote for Legends. Early WEG stuff was pure gold. They totally understood the idea of "story over science," something I find sorely lacking here, not to mention most EU books. Anyway, I digress. This seems to be a Legends thread. Therefore, the canon argument is null and void.
You mentioned Canon. I responded on that basis.
Legends has been mentioned once or twice but nothing that made me think 'this thread is all legends, all the time.'
Regardless of opinions of quality of old EU to new material, It seems in poor form to make sweeping very definite statements that you are right and other people are wrong when they're simply using different sources to you.
I'm sorry, I meant the old canon, what is now Legends. Anyway, I was only suggesting that those contradicting me should provide their sources, as I provided mine. Then we can decide whether this is a resolvable debate or whether we should just leave it for another thread. I am more than willing to continue. I have offered my point of view.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace
The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren
I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain
Kyp Durron's brother was on a whole planet devoted to training Stormtroopers.
Rebels had an episode at an Imperial Academy where students went on to, among other things, be Stormtroopers.
"Cadets, you entered this facility as children. And in a few short weeks, you will leave as soldiers. By the time you complete your training, you will be prepared to serve your Emperor. Today, we will test your strength and resolve. Are you ready to become stormtroopers?"
―Commandant Aresko
Specifically they'd go next to more specialty schools to complete the training but, yea, non-clones entered and went on to Stormie specialty school.
Legends or Disney, by the time of the OT, non-clone stormies were a thing in mass number.
KraytKing wrote:Also, Simon, what is the last part of your post supposed to mean? Of course I'm confident. While I may not know much about the JSDF, this is a subject I am expert in. Yes, the 501st is a pure clone unit. Of all legions in the Empire, would it not be Vader's Fist to receive this distinction?
There's a fine line between 'confidence' and 'arrogance.' I was making fun of this issue. To put it bluntly, you are phrasing your arguments in such a way as to suggest arrogance- a refusal to recognize the possibility of being mistaken, confused, or wrong about details.
This has the result of making others actively less likely to take you seriously.
It's sort of like how if I say "I'm 80% sure it will snow in November next year," people can take me seriously. But if I say "I'm 99.9999999999999% sure," they shouldn't take me seriously. Because that's me saying there is literally a one in a quadrillion chance of it not snowing, comparable to the chance of me getting hit by a meteorite next November or something. There's no way I'm really that confident- or if I am that confident, then I'm being an arrogant moron who is incapable of realistically assessing the concept of 'making a mistake.'
You might think that expressing greater certainty is simply a way of, well, expressing greater certainty. But that's not how it works when you expect other people to actually engage with you and care about what you say.
Oh yea, as for Stormtroopers who turned against the Emperor, not only did Zaarin have Stormtroopers in his forces, but one was involved in the capture of Emperor Palpatine (specifically, a force-sensitive one who was trained by a Hand. No, I don't think they had any idea his real power).
Zaarin tried to take out the TIE Advanced production facilities by landing Stormtroopers on them too.
The Kalaan defectors were a unit of Stormtrooper who were intensely loyal to their general so when he was arrested for refusing to obey orders to kill civilians, they switched sides and even broke Luke out of prison.
The Hand of Judgement was a group of five who went full vigilante after Yavin (and were noted as holding doubts before the event involving Imperial Security pushed them over the edge).
I'd say a lot of internal rebellions involve Stormtroopers. Even some Clonetroopers defected after all, and Stormies didn't have the same level of programming.
Okay. I recognize that I am wrong in ascertaining that stormtroopers are 100% loyal. But these all seem to be minority cases. So when you take a force of 75,000+ stormtroopers, how many are going to defect?
Also, does anyone have anything to say about the rest of my original post? I figured I'd have to fight over it a bit more.
Simon_Jester wrote:
KraytKing wrote:Also, Simon, what is the last part of your post supposed to mean? Of course I'm confident. While I may not know much about the JSDF, this is a subject I am expert in. Yes, the 501st is a pure clone unit. Of all legions in the Empire, would it not be Vader's Fist to receive this distinction?
There's a fine line between 'confidence' and 'arrogance.' I was making fun of this issue. To put it bluntly, you are phrasing your arguments in such a way as to suggest arrogance- a refusal to recognize the possibility of being mistaken, confused, or wrong about details.
I'm sorry that offended you. I thought it was common knowledge. The way you would state "car crashes are dangerous to your health." Obviously, I was mistaken.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace
The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren
I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain
KraytKing wrote:Okay. I recognize that I am wrong in ascertaining that stormtroopers are 100% loyal. But these all seem to be minority cases. So when you take a force of 75,000+ stormtroopers, how many are going to defect?
When Vader has been their commander forever and gets a longer amount of time to further ensure the personal loyalty of their officers?
I'd think almost all of them- most of those disloyalties directly involved greater loyalty to a direct commander after all.
The point of all this is to show just how massive the Empire was. These ships were tasked to go into space, find some rebels, kill them, and keep doing so for half a decade. With this in mind, I find it doubtful that anything would prevent them from quickly building up some form of supply network. Rudimentary when compared to the Empire? Certainly. Enough to keep them fighting until they could capture some Federation factories? Even more so.
Plus, any ship encountered could easily be captured (250 ion cannons on the Executor) and recycled, its crew enslaved, its food stocks reappropriated.
After the first few battles, no Imperial would ever have to work a farm again. Slave labor would handle it. I'm not too familiar with Star Trek (I watched Into Darkness and the one before it), but it sounds like there is a sentient species in the vicinity of the arrival zone. They wouldn't last a year.
Agreed that they could last until they captured stuff pretty easily, though of note, they aren't near Federation territory, the op places them near the Kazon, who are inferior to the Federation in every way.
The Federation doesn't really use conventional factories, they use replicators, but the Kazon are more basic so no problem there. I don't know how much industry the Kazon have though, it might be insufficient for the Empire's needs.
Q99 wrote:
Agreed that they could last until they captured stuff pretty easily, though of note, they aren't near Federation territory, the op places them near the Kazon, who are inferior to the Federation in every way.
The Federation doesn't really use conventional factories, they use replicators, but the Kazon are more basic so no problem there. I don't know how much industry the Kazon have though, it might be insufficient for the Empire's needs.
Slave labor and basic technology would be enough. The Army formations carried aboard Death Squadron are equipped to sustain themselves in the field, manufacturing their own weapons and spares for their tanks. While this is a far cry from the type of manufacturing required to sustain four ISD's, let alone the Executor, they could build themselves up when provided with slave assistance and a basic infrastructure. That six year period would also likely be increased with an entire planet producing food. Meanwhile, probe droids, Star Destroyers, and hyperspace-capable carried craft can chart hyperlanes and locate other empires for conquest.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace
The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren
I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain
Locating others would be good- the Kazon were noted for really wanting more water (why their explorations didn't find water rich worlds when they were warp capable, I have no idea. But they were amazed by the Federation's ability to make 'water out of thin air').
All in all, near the Caretaker array is a pretty crappy area of space by all indications.
Whatever. The Empire just needs a place to chill for a couple of months until they map out some hyperspace routes to attack other places. As long as there are some usable resources in the area, no reason not to leave at least a couple garrisons to get some logistics going.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace
The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren
I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain
