Death Squadron in the Milky Way(RAR)

[Simon_Jester]

KraytKing, it may well have taken thousands of years for hyperspace travel in the Star Wars galaxy to be mapped out as fully and extensively as it is.

Do you have reason to think that a random expeditionary force from Star Wars can do this easily and much more quickly in a new, totally unfamiliar galaxy? Though I'll say this for Death Squadron in particular, at least they have lots and lots of probe droids.

[Q99]

It is a good question to ask how fast scouting goes- I mean, even if their hyperdrive is long range, they'll mostly be focusing local at first, right?

How long until they meet someone with a proper civilization?

Also if they go far enough to alert the Borg, that could be an annoyance. The Borg would regularly sacrifice small numbers of ships in order to try and steal their tech. They'd keep that up for centuries if need be, and are in turn spread out enough (and have facilities not in any solar system) to make wiping out hard, especially for a group with so few ships.

[KraytKing]

Hyperlanes are mapped with a series of microjumps, each followed by extensive scanning for celestial bodies. Each jump goes only as far as the longest ranged sensors. Range of hyperdrive doesn't matter, only sensors. So a Star Destroyer, with it's enormous range, would be a huge waste, while probes, with long ranged sensors and short range hyperdrives, would be quite efficient.

Anyway, it would still take forever to find anyone else through random chance. But if they got lucky and captured someone with knowledge of the Milky Way and the positioning of the various galactic empires, certain hyperlanes could be quickly developed. And regardless, eventually they'll find a planet with some valuable resources, and begin to expand the fleet of explorers.

[Q99]

Hyperlanes are mapped with a series of microjumps, each followed by extensive scanning for celestial bodies. Each jump goes only as far as the longest ranged sensors. Range of hyperdrive doesn't matter, only sensors. So a Star Destroyer, with it's enormous range, would be a huge waste, while probes, with long ranged sensors and short range hyperdrives, would be quite efficient.

Anyway, it would still take forever to find anyone else through random chance. But if they got lucky and captured someone with knowledge of the Milky Way and the positioning of the various galactic empires, certain hyperlanes could be quickly developed. And regardless, eventually they'll find a planet with some valuable resources, and begin to expand the fleet of explorers.

In Trek, almost no-one has knowledge of the milky way as a whole. The Voyager has knowledge of the Alpha Quadrant maps but literally does not know how to get there from here. The Borg have the widest known galactic knowledge, but you'll never get a map from them and as mentioned it'd be a large bother to be found by them (also Borg getting Wars tech = Game Over, so hopefully that doesn't happen. Vader's empire should be pretty compact and well defended so I don't think it'll be too much of a danger).

... ah, the Hiirogan! They're Delta Quadrant, they'd be hard as heck to capture or get information from (they're all hunters, think like from the movie Predator), but they're space nomads with a really wide range. That'd be the best maps one can find anywhere nearby.

Hm, Trek maps might also not cover all hyperspace hazards, so you'd send probe droids around the routes, but still, that'd help speed things along.

So, start with crappy Kazon maps (which will be easy to extract), get an idea of the immediate area, then go from there, adding bits and pieces. Maybe striking gold and getting Hiirogan maps, maybe not.

[Simon_Jester]

The big problem is that by all appearances, the Hirogen nomads' range is limited to the Delta Quadrant. It probably won't tell the Imperials anything about the Dominion or the Alpha Quadrant powers.

And, hm... If they poke around entirely in the Delta Quadrant... what happens if they run into the Krenim? Because it doesn't really matter how many gigawatts of power your starships can generate, if the enemy can shoot them with a "retcon you the fuck out of existence" cannon.

[Captain Seafort]

The big problem is that by all appearances, the Hirogen nomads' range is limited to the Delta Quadrant.

Not entirely - Message in a Bottle shows that they have sensor access to at least the more remote areas of the Alpha Quadrant, and the fact that the Doctor's transfer was by a bucket-brigade system means that they have detailed knowledge of at least a corridor between the AQ and most of the way through the DQ.

[Q99]

Yea, we don't know the full extent of their wandering range but it seems very impressive.

And, hm... If they poke around entirely in the Delta Quadrant... what happens if they run into the Krenim? Because it doesn't really matter how many gigawatts of power your starships can generate, if the enemy can shoot them with a "retcon you the fuck out of existence" cannon.

Well, that's just *one ship*. And sooner or later it's likely to retcon itself or something.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The Krenim ship retcon-ing itself is what happens in it's episode, so whether it actually exists at all int he main ST timeline is...questionable.

[FaxModem1]

I think it's worth mentioning that the Kazon are the equivalent of Somali pirates. They were slaves a generation ago, rebelled against the Trabe, and have been in space for all of 26 years when Voyager comes around. This is partially why the Kazon are bad at what they do, they're still adjusting to being in space.

Any industry or infrastructure the Kazon have is leftover Trabe technology, and is being competed over, if not destroyed, by the various sects fighting each other, and who knows if it's even still maintained at all.

Death Squadron uplifting the Trabe as their allies is a possibility though.

It's also worth mentioning that any maps the Kazon have are politically worthless.

CHAKOTAY: We're not familiar with this part of space. If I'd seen a map identifying this as Kazon-Ogla territory, I wouldn't have been anywhere near it.
RAZIK: Unfortunately, our territorial claims change every day. Maps do not serve us well.

Trabe maps may be more useful, if a generation out of date. This may be why Neelix's spots for good places for supplies kept on turning out to be death traps, ambushes, dead worlds, etc.

[Q99]

Kazon maps are politically worthless for their own space between their factions- it should still point to neighboring civs.

That said, each sect likely has their own maps...

Also I wouldn't be surprised if some Kazon capitulated if defeat looked certain, under the idea that 'we rebelled and took over our slaver's fleet once before.' This would be a mistake (though others will probably decide freedom is paramount and flee, which is not a mistake). Trabe and Kazon both would be pretty easy for the Imperials to get under control, since they're currently fractious and against each other, so they could use the old strategy of 'give one group power over another to gain the loyalty of one and control-with-a-buffer of the other.' I'm not sure who Vader would put in charge, the Trabe (who already failed once and may not be ruthless enough for him) or one of the Kazon sects, but control seems certain and fairly easy if they decide to conquere here.

[Solauren]

Vader can force-choke over communications (as shown in E.S.B). Possibly at a considerable distance.

All he has to do to keep the Kazon + Trabe in line is get a group conference going, and force choke them all into submission via remote. Between that and the firepower of imperial weapons, they'll be scared shitless and listen

[FaxModem1]

Vader can force-choke over communications (as shown in E.S.B). Possibly at a considerable distance.

All he has to do to keep the Kazon + Trabe in line is get a group conference going, and force choke them all into submission via remote. Between that and the firepower of imperial weapons, they'll be scared shitless and listen

Has Vader ever force choked more than one person at a time?

I get your point though.

[KraytKing]

It really doesn't matter who gets power first. Kazon or Trabe, as soon as one has been absorbed into the war machine, the other will fall. With so many slaves ripe for plundering in all directions, the Empire won't exactly worry about how quickly they die. Efficiency really isn't a concern considering the volume of possible labor.

If there are any resources at all to be had within a few systems, the Empire will exploit them to the fullest extent possible in order to build up a logistical base and a fleet. Any encounter with a foreign ship will likely result in that ship being captured, the crew enslaved, the vessel dismembered, and any available star maps being extracted. Without any encounters, I still can't see it taking more than 15-20 years to find a large political entity.

[Q99]

If there are any resources at all to be had within a few systems, the Empire will exploit them to the fullest extent possible in order to build up a logistical base and a fleet. Any encounter with a foreign ship will likely result in that ship being captured, the crew enslaved, the vessel dismembered, and any available star maps being extracted. Without any encounters, I still can't see it taking more than 15-20 years to find a large political entity.

Oh yea, they should definitely find a large political entity by that point. While it may be a long time before they can make a shipyard capable of making Wars-style capital ships, Trek warp ships are still good for scouting and minor work.

It shouldn't be all that many years til they conquer worlds with some real infrastructure. Individual worlds to be sure, but not wrecked by conflict like the Kazon ones.

[KraytKing]

Can Trek ships scan while in warp? Does warp automatically route around obstacles? The reason hyperspace scouting takes so long in SW is that they can't scan while in hyperspace. They have to repeatedly jump and decant, stopping to scan each time. But if a Trek ship can scan while moving at warp speed, it might not take long at all. Of course, it may take some time for the Empire to figure this out.

[Q99]

Can Trek ships scan while in warp? Does warp automatically route around obstacles? The reason hyperspace scouting takes so long in SW is that they can't scan while in hyperspace. They have to repeatedly jump and decant, stopping to scan each time. But if a Trek ship can scan while moving at warp speed, it might not take long at all. Of course, it may take some time for the Empire to figure this out.

They can scan while at warp just fine, and how obstacles work for warp is... not exactly sure but they can certainly pick up the things that'd block hyperspace and they aren't known for hitting stuff (though they almost did in The Motion Picture. Was kinda a weird situation though).

Warp's pretty slow in comparison to hyperdrive- especially Kazon warp which is, once again, not the Good Stuff (I really like ragging on Kazon, don't I?), but yea, they should make good pathfinders.

[KraytKing]

Certainly better than jump, stop, jump, stop. Plus, some extra ships means more routes can be explored at once.

[NeoGoomba]

Is hypermatter something that Death Squadron would be able to have a means of producing, or is it a unique, finite resource native to the Wars-Galaxy like Tibanna Gas or bacta?

[KraytKing]

Uh oh. Didn't think of that. Without tibanna gas, weapons wouldn't work. A lack of bacta would seriously hamper the fighting effectiveness of stormtroopers and Army troopers. And without hypermatter, they can't get anywhere. Essentially, they have until their supplies run out to become the dominant military power, because they then lose all of their advantages. Besides, of course, being led by Darth Vader.

[Q99]

Uh oh. Didn't think of that. Without tibanna gas, weapons wouldn't work. A lack of bacta would seriously hamper the fighting effectiveness of stormtroopers and Army troopers. And without hypermatter, they can't get anywhere. Essentially, they have until their supplies run out to become the dominant military power, because they then lose all of their advantages. Besides, of course, being led by Darth Vader.

Unless they can get some proper replicators and those can do them. Dunno if it can do hypermatter but I'd be shocked if it couldn't do tibanna gas or bacta.

And it could be hypermatter would be doable, just really energy-intensive to make.

[KraytKing]

Okay. It does give me an idea though...

[Q99]

Hm... just to present a worst-case scenario:

Death Squadron abandons one of it's Star Destroyers due to running low on hypermatter and find no method to reproduce it even with replication. The Borg find it, assimilate it, and in it's databases knowledge of how hypermatter works, and find that by using particle synthesis (which is superior to replication and only the Borg, 8472, and Species 116/the Slipstream inventors are known to have it, the last being gone due to the Borg assimilating them) they can make it.

That's "sadistic fanfic writer" level scenario, of course ^^

[Esquire]

Instawin for the Borg, or at least win at t+[time to develop hypermatter infrastructure]. Borg ships are already fleet-killers in the Star Trek universe; giving them such a huge speed advantage, let alone other uses for that much power capacity, lets them overwhelm everyone everywhere, forever.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I honestly cannot see Vader leaving a derelict ISD behind. I suspect he'd order it stripped of parts, consumables and crew, then scuttle it, to prevent precisely this scenario happen (although replace Borg with the Rebels, because that's primarily what Vader would be thinking in terms of).

[NeoGoomba]

Yeah, Vader is no fool. Any ship that becomes ineffective will either be repurposed or stripped and detonated. Knowing that their tech edge will be the only thing keeping such a small force alive in a hostile galaxy, Vader and his troops will guard their gadgets jealously.

Man, I'd love to see how Vader would develop without Palpatine's constant goading, especially if he's trying to carve out a splinter Empire of his own. He's been proven to actually give a shit about his rank and file, and all his strategic and tactical skills he developed in the Clone Wars would need to be used and strengthened after atrophying as Palpatine's button man.

I doubt he'd become a benevolent despot, but a more in-control Vader is intriguing to me.