Game of Thrones season seven trailer.

[The Vortex Empire]

Knowing George RR Martin, I wouldn't be surprised if it all ends in utter death and destruction, with Westeros eventually being nothing but ruins as the White Walkers kill everyone. I don't think Dany and Jon MIGHT be able to ally with each other against the White Walkers, but this isn't that kind of show. It'll be nothing but everyone dying.

I think this idea that GRRM is a nihilist is a fundamental misread of ASOIAF. To quote one of my favorite ASOIAF analysts, PoorQuentyn:

“Men’s lives have meaning, not their deaths” is the closest we’ve gotten to an overarching thesis statement for ASOIAF. It reaches all the way back to the first book, to Ned (who, like Quent, turns out to not be the protagonist after all) and his shocking demise. So many readers have interpreted that moment, as well as the Red Wedding two books later, as being indicative of nihilism on GRRM’s part. Everything is chaos, honor gets you killed and is therefore worthless, “power is power.” But this is not so.

Ned’s legacy is not his death, it is his life. The children determined to find each other again because Dad taught them to stick together and be brave, the vassals who have set out to rescue and restore those children in his name, the memory both in-universe and IRL of a decent man who treated his servants like human beings worth listening to and who was determined to protect the young and innocent…all of this is the meaning of Ned Stark, not that he ended up as a head on a spike.

By the same token, the meaning of Tywin Lannister isn’t that he died on the can. It’s why he died on the can, and that is because he lived a terrible life. His legacy is his family tearing itself apart, his hoped-for Lannister regime falling to pieces across Westeros, and his oh-so-symbolic reeking corpse. One of these men, for all his mistakes, found and spread a worthy meaning in his brief time on Terros, and the other, for all his triumphs, did not. We are all mortal; all of us, “from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat,” are ultimately helpless before the abyss that Quent leaps into in his final chapter. No one (not even Euron, try as he might) can change that. What matters, what makes us who are, what means something, is how we live our lives knowing that in the end, the house always wins.

The ending will be bittersweet, not grimdark.

[The Romulan Republic]

And I'd bet that all the people who see it as grimdark nihilism (likely because that is their own world view) will whine about how the show ruined it (until the ending to the books comes out), and then about how GRRM sold out.

[FaxModem1]

See, I might buy that it's all about their lives and how they lived, if we didn't have 6 seasons of Sansa being a human chewtoy for every villain to show how evil they were(Joffrey, Cersei, Littlefinger, Lysa, the Boltons, etc.), or us watching the Boltons massacre, torture, and rape their way through the North, the way the cannibal Wildlings eat defenseless villagers, or entire families of characters brought into to swiftly die off because they were pointless to the story(the Martells).

[The Romulan Republic]

I still think that an "everybody dies pointlessly" ending doesn't fit the direction the show has been going recently, or at least the parts of it I've seen. It would feel like a lot of build up for nothing more than a cheap twist to show how dark and edgy they are.

But if you want cynical, I do have one prediction- its just a feeling, I don't have anything solid to back it up, but I have this suspicion that Littlefinger is going to walk away completely scot-free at the end. No comeuppance.

[Shroom Man 777]

The presence of now-stale and cheap "ooh we're so edgy" glamorization of ultraviolence and reliance on shock factor for ratings, as filler or whatever supplements to the narrative, are not mutually exclusive with what some think are books' themes and maybe even the show's themes.

[Vendetta]

I think this idea that GRRM is a nihilist is a fundamental misread of ASOIAF. To quote one of my favorite ASOIAF analysts, PoorQuentyn:

MrBTongue had a similar argument (albeit in the concept of complaining about the TV show).

[The Vortex Empire]

See, I might buy that it's all about their lives and how they lived, if we didn't have 6 seasons of Sansa being a human chewtoy for every villain to show how evil they were(Joffrey, Cersei, Littlefinger, Lysa, the Boltons, etc.), or us watching the Boltons massacre, torture, and rape their way through the North, the way the cannibal Wildlings eat defenseless villagers, or entire families of characters brought into to swiftly die off because they were pointless to the story(the Martells).

Yeah, the show definitely engages in the grimdark "power-is-power" shit much, much more than the books do. Especially since literally none of those things you just listened happened in them.

I, uh, am not a fan of the show.

[The Vortex Empire]

But if you want cynical, I do have one prediction- its just a feeling, I don't have anything solid to back it up, but I have this suspicion that Littlefinger is going to walk away completely scot-free at the end. No comeuppance.

Oh no, Littlefinger is 100% going to be killed by Sansa. Even was a prophecy about that in the books, where the Woods Witch at High Heart saw a girl with purple vipers in her hair (obviously Sansa with the poison in her hairnet) killing a giant in a castle made of snow (House Baelish's original sigil was the Titan of Braavos, castle made of snow could be the Eyrie or Winterfell.) 90% sure the bit with Sansa destroying Robert Arryn's toy giant in her literal castle made of snow was a red herring to trick the reader into thinking that prophecy had been fulfilled.

[The Romulan Republic]

I hope you're right. Besides avoiding a pointlessly dark "everyone dies" ending, there are two main things I want from this show's ending:

A dead Littlefinger.

And a live Brienne. Oh, and Tyrion I guess. Whatever his faults, I think he's probably suffered enough.

[The Vortex Empire]

I hope you're right. Besides avoiding a pointlessly dark "everyone dies" ending, there are two main things I want from this show's ending:

A dead Littlefinger.

And a live Brienne. Oh, and Tyrion I guess. Whatever his faults, I think he's probably suffered enough.

Dunno about the show, but in the books I think Brienne probably dies to save Jaime in the trial by combat Lady Stoneheart is gonna force them to fight against each other, and Tyrion probably dies along with Jon and Daenerys when they fly the three dragons into the heart of winter to save the world.

Since Stoneheart was omitted from the show, Brienne might make it there.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hmm, If Danny and Jon both bought it, who'd be left to rule/clean up the giant continent-wide clusterfuck at the end? Neither has an heir at present, do they?

Edit: Well, I guess Sansa could rule the North, and Tyrion the Lannister lands. Hell, maybe Tyrion ends up on the Iron Throne, since he's basically Danny's chief deputy now. You can't deny he'd probably be better at it than most if given the chance.

[The Vortex Empire]

Hmm, If Danny and Jon both bought it, who'd be left to rule/clean up the giant continent-wide clusterfuck at the end? Neither has an heir at present, do they?

Edit: Well, I guess Sansa could rule the North, and Tyrion the Lannister lands. Hell, maybe Tyrion ends up on the Iron Throne, since he's basically Danny's chief deputy now. You can't deny he'd probably be better at it than most if given the chance.

Again don't know about the show, but I don't think there's going to be a united Westeros or an Iron Throne at the end of the books, since King's Landing will be destroyed by Chekov's Wildfire. Sansa in the North, maybe united with the Riverlands under Edmure and the Vale under somebody. Don't know who will rule the Westerlands, since I think all the Lannisters are going to die, maybe some Lannister cadet branch. Willas in the Reach, a legitimized Edric Baratheon, formerly Edric Storm in the Stormlands advised by Davos Seaworth, Asha Greyjoy in the Iron Islands. Dorne is also a question since I think Doran's schemes are going to get his entire family killed.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't know about King's Landing burning, though. I haven't read the books, but from what I know of the show, I think the "Jaime re-enacts the Kingslaying with Cersei" theory sounds plausible enough.

[The Romulan Republic]

New trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mlhnt0jMlg

[Solauren]

My prediction stands with Jon and Danny married and together on the Iron Throne. He started the furthest from it after all.

Now, question is, would them going far enough North actually make the sun appear to rise in the West instead of the East? Could that break the apparent blood-magi curse on Danny and let them have children?

[Esquire]

They could, I think - haven't read the text in a while - pull the homophones and metaphorical-interpretation trick; the son (of Rhaegar) will rise (to be king of) West(eros) or something like that.

[Darth Yan]

Eh. The show already ditched the stupid ass and pointless filler of the books so already they're going to be having a better finale (and no Quentin Martell dragged the story down considerably by taking focus away from the main storylines. Book 5 is not the time to introduce new plotlines).

In anycase Marty says it well be bittersweet. I think Jon may succeed in defeating the Night's king but die in the process

[Iroscato]

Gods above, this is looking fucking magnificent.

[The Romulan Republic]

Gods above, this is looking fucking magnificent.

Its both a sign of how far visual effects have progressed, and how much effort and skill have gone into the visual design of Game of Thrones, that there are times when a television series looks better and grander than the Lord of the Rings films.

[The Vortex Empire]

Eh. The show already ditched the stupid ass and pointless filler of the books so already they're going to be having a better finale (and no Quentin Martell dragged the story down considerably by taking focus away from the main storylines. Book 5 is not the time to introduce new plotlines).

Nothing in the books is "filler," Quentyn Martell is a deconstruction of fantasy's obsession with the quest. A better finale is the one with more thematic impact, not one with more SHOCKING MOMENTS and VISUALLY IMPRESSIVE SHOTS. To quote Emmett Booth, one of my favorite ASOIAF analysts:

Quent is not the hero, and that’s the point of his story: what it feels like to play the role of the hero when deep down you know it’s not going to work. It’s a deconstruction of fantasy’s obsession with the quest. GRRM is arguing that an active war zone is no place for a rousing adventure; that if a plan is risky and long-shot it’s probably going to fail; that dragons are “monsters, not maesters.” Quent’s decision to try and steal a dragon is born of desperation, his inability to face failure…and again, that failure was nigh-inevitable, given that as Barristan tells us, Doran’s plan was terrible.

Prince Quentyn flushed. “The marriage pact—”

“—was made by two dead men and contained not a word about the queen or you. It promised your sister’s hand to the queen’s brother, another dead man. It has no force. Until you turned up here, Her Grace was ignorant of its existence. Your father keeps his secrets well, Prince Quentyn. Too well, I fear.”

Doran’s not a chessmaster, he’s a tragic character doomed to watch everyone he loves die in part due to his own mistakes. And Quent’s death is so thematically central to the story that GRRM named the damn book after it:

After the girl was gone, the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell’s face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince’s flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus. He should have stayed in Dorne. He should have stayed a frog. Not all men are meant to dance with dragons.

ASOIAF is about themes, it is a deconstruction and reconstruction of fantasy and romantic storytelling. It is not a race to the finish, it's the journey that matters. And in that, A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons are by far the best books in the series so far. Again, Booth puts this better than I.

Q: You've said before that ADWD is your favorite book in the series. So i am interested about your opinion on the criticisms of AFFC/ADWD. Placeholder POV's, not carrying the momentum of ASOS, the bloated feeling, editing that left us with no closure in some storylines, great amount of set up with little to no payoff, etc. I personally agree to some extent with all of these points. It really feels like George's problems with writing them weren't fully solved and showed up in the final product.

A:

Unsurprisingly, I disagree with all of those criticisms

The “not carrying the momentum of ASOS” one really baffles me, because no good story is structured like a constant fireworks display. Variation of tension is an important storytelling principle. ASOS was about blowing up the status quo, and the Feastdance was a sad bitter tour among the wreckage: working through the political and psychological fallout, introducing a slew of fascinating new characters as they try to take advantage of the chaos, delving deeper into myth and setting and theme. There’s more Big Events in ASOS, but IMO the Feastdance is more interesting and stronger in the prose department. (It’s the equivalent of Prisoner of Azkaban, and that’s my favorite HP novel.) If GRRM tried to keep the breakneck pace of ASOS going for the rest of the series, we wouldn’t actually like it. It’d be a muddled numbing mess.

Moreover, I actually think ASOS is the most poorly paced novel in the series so far. The seams are really showing in the first half; the Arya and KL chapters in particular frequently feel like placeholder material on the way to the color-themed weddings. And then everything starts happening at once, way too fast and furious for my tastes. By the time I got to Tyrion’s final chapter, it didn’t hit me as hard as it might have, because I was frankly exhausted. The individual chapters are largely excellent, but IMO the book is less than the sum of its parts, whereas AFFC and ADWD are more.

Speaking of criticisms that I think actually apply more to other books in ASOIAF…the whole lack of closure/payoff argument fits ACOK more than the Feastdance. ACOK builds up to the Blackwater, of course, but step back from that and look at where the characters end up. Sansa’s still a prisoner in King’s Landing. Arya’s still on the run in the Riverlands. Dany’s time in Qarth just kinda peters out after the House of the Undying. As @racefortheironthrone noted in his essay on Tyrion I ASOS, it might’ve worked better if Tyrion’s arc in ACOK had ended on the bridge of ships, rather than the somewhat awkward postscript of his final chapter.

Now, of course, this is largely because ACOK is a transition-expansion novel in between AGOT and ASOS, same way AFFC/ADWD are vis-a-vis ASOS and TWOW. But I think GRRM handled it more gracefully in the latter case. The Pink Letter is a classic cliffhanger RE Stannis and the Boltons and an ideal thematic climax to Jon’s ADWD arc. Dany and Cersei’s final chapters in the Feastdance bring their entire stories to a head: both are about the POV falling from a position of power to isolated deprivation, forced to wander through a series of hallucinations before arriving at a monstrous externalization of their id, with whom they intend to unleash hell. “The Dragontamer” and “The Princess in the Tower” are brilliant, subversive endings to their respective storylines. Then there’s Brienne’s last chapter, and Davos’, and the punch to the gut that ends Arya’s AFFC story…I could go on. Suffice to say, I like that Barristan’s story in ADWD ends not with the Battle of Fire, but on his decision to fight said battle. That’s more compelling and unique to these eyes, drawing us deeper into character and theme rather than just blowing shit up. “I would shatter it” means more to me than any cavalry charge.

[Darth Yan]

Except that the time spent on Quentin detracts from the actual story (building up to the white walkers, the struggles in the north.) Hardholme was far more powerful than most moments in the series because we see the White Walkers in action and we get the dread and the plot moving (we meet their leader). By introducing new subplots established characters suffer and grind to a halt. It's probably why George is still struggling with Winds. If themes get in the way of the story then the themes need to go. Quentyn robbed characters like Jon, Tyrion and others of valuable development. Fake Aegon cheapens the arc of dany and throws ANOTHER variable into the mix just when things need to be wrapping up. The battles that were build up are forgotten

I'm sorry. Quentin's story SHOULD get removed. Vortex, you're analyst is a god damned idiot with his head so far up martin's ass he can touch his eppiglottus

[Darth Yan]

ok maybe i went a little far with calling the guy an idiot but he seems eager to defend something that drags down the story

[The Vortex Empire]

If themes get in the way of the story then the themes need to go.

From this sentence it is clear we will never agree on anything. The themes are the most important part, the story exists only to serve them. And what do you mean "other characters suffer," they all get chapters too, and they all affect each other. Aegon wasn't "thrown into the mix," he was foreshadowed from book 1 with the baby's face being unrecognizable and book 2 with Daenerys's vision of the Mummer's cloth dragon. The battles aren't forgotten, they were built up into an imminent crescendo to come crashing down in the opening of TWOW, as we enter Act 3 of ASOIAF and the apocalypse begins.

[Darth Yan]

As far as I see it storytelling comes first. If themes get in the way of a story they need to go. If you have too many characters and themes it becomes unwieldy.

What I mean is that they could have taken all the key events of both books and fit it into one. Quentyn dies. He never interacts with the characters in a meaningful way and so ultimately serves no point than to make a statement. The story gains nothing having him, and as far as I see it if you don't serve a purpose in the story you're dead weight. "The theme comes first" is shit writing.

And no Martin himself implied that the battles were cut for time; he fully meant to include them at the end of book 5. It was his inability to delegate. In any case having too much is probably why he has yet to release book 6.

The important element is that things happen. In the books it's "characters spend time brooding, they go to a place, they talk, they leave"; contrast with the first three books where major events happen.

The show has problems but it's actually a lot more streamlined. Important things happen in a "mostly" believable way; important characters are established and developed. Story events occur and characters evolve.

As an aside; My dad loved the first three books and felt the show inferior....until he read books 4 and 5 which killed his enjoyment, since he saw them as piffling twaddle that dragged out the story.

As Jon of the living dead says

Well, first a disclaimer: I don't think Quentyn the character was unnecessary, I think Quentyn the POV was. I do think his death will have important consequences

Now, 4 chapters is a lot, actually. It's more than Asha had in aDwD, more than Melisandre, more than Jon Connington, more than Victarion, more than Arianne ever got, all of them arguably more interesting and more instrumental for the future plot than Quentyn

Also, he's a Prince of Dorne, and? So was Oberyn and we never got his POV (which would have been great)

Yeah, Martin uses Quentyn to deconstruct the classic archetype of the hero's journey...for like the tenth time. We had that with Ned, Robb, Oberyn, the Brotherhood, etc, so it's hardly new ground. It's repetitive.

Finally, let's not kid ourselves: the guy was likeable, but his characterization was paper-thin for a POV. He could have worked great as a regular character, just not as a POV

He brings nothing new, he hogs time from Victarion Arianne and others, and he has the characterization of a plank of wood

Emmet Booth is an idiot; he's like those jackasses who defend Sam Harris and ignore that he's a genocidal monster. GRRM should have ditched Quentyn entirely

[Shroom Man 777]

If the story is clunky then it does disservice to the themes. Themes, if they truly are as important as Vortex says they are, should then be served well by having an effective story.

The Quentyn bit is bothersome. Especially since we've got, whats his face, Young Griff? OK, deconstruct the quest... and then have some other questy kid return to Westeros and beat ass and ruin shit. In preparation for the khaleesi who's also bound to return to Westeros and beat ass and fulfill her quest.

We already had the failed quests with Viserys.