Wonder Woman- the Reviews are In

[Q99]

Wonder Woman may not come out for a few days, but the critics have seen it-

And they love it

96% at rotten tomatoes (100% with top critics!)

"Wonder Woman’s feminism – in its eagerly daubed poster-paint strokes – feels like a rarity. Time will tell whether Hollywood is about to find itself in the thrall of a heroine addiction. But as the credits rolled, I was already craving another hit." -Robbie Colin



"It gives us the kind of hero a lot of us fell in love with back in those 12-cent days of truth, justice and the American way - and the kind of movie we haven't seen since Christopher Reeve first flew into our lives.
...
"There are other pleasures here - including the quietly regal Robin Wright, as Diana's kick-butt Amazon aunt and mentor - but chief among them is how capably Patty Jenkins directs. Diana's mythical Amazon island feels like a real place; the plot moves forward relentlessly." -Stephen Whitty



I'm getting hyped!

[FaxModem1]

Thank God. It really seems like the entire DCEU is riding on this film being good.

[Joun_Lord]

Please be good, please be fucking good. This coming from a WW fan and someone who despite all odds wants DCEU to succeed.

The problem is I'm not going to trust pre-screening reviews especially from professional critics. Been burned way too much on that. Stuff like Suicide Squad and Batman v Superman where critics said it was the best thing evar, finally righting the DC movie franchise, 10 out of 10 and then its released an audiences (myself included) find them......well less then ideal to be charitable.

But I think, I hope, that DC has learned its lessons from the drab dreary moderate failures of their previous movies. I hope they learned a super serious Wonder Woman probably isn't the best idea with the universally despised "pants to be darkened" Wonder Woman pilot. I hope they learn a bit from the continuing popularity of the Lynda Carter WW series.

I hope all that because I'm drawn into the hype, just going by the trailers the movie looks fantastic. Hopefully it is.

One thing I've noted on the interwebs is a few complaints of casting the Germans as the bad guys and not even the WWII Nazis Germans but the not really villainous (atleast as far as I know) WWI Germans. As far as I remember WWII was her original setting and it seems odd they changed it. Nobody has a problem with Nazis getting smacked around, I'm sure more then a few have problems with German troops in the Great War being smacked around and painted as Nazis in all but name.

[Crazedwraith]

I thought Suicide Squad and BvS were pretty much savaged by critics? At least once it was released.

They probably changed it to WWI rather than WWII because it's a rather setting and reduces comparisons to The First Avenger.

[Simon_Jester]

Please be good, please be fucking good. This coming from a WW fan and someone who despite all odds wants DCEU to succeed.

The problem is I'm not going to trust pre-screening reviews especially from professional critics. Been burned way too much on that. Stuff like Suicide Squad and Batman v Superman where critics said it was the best thing evar, finally righting the DC movie franchise, 10 out of 10 and then its released an audiences (myself included) find them......well less then ideal to be charitable.

...My honest impression is that Suicide Squad and Batman vs. Superman did okay and did not 'sink' or even imperil the DC movie line. If Wonder Woman merely does as well as those movies, would it be a bad thing for DC?

One thing I've noted on the interwebs is a few complaints of casting the Germans as the bad guys and not even the WWII Nazis Germans but the not really villainous (atleast as far as I know) WWI Germans. As far as I remember WWII was her original setting and it seems odd they changed it. Nobody has a problem with Nazis getting smacked around, I'm sure more then a few have problems with German troops in the Great War being smacked around and painted as Nazis in all but name.

Until I personally see just how the Germans of the movie are portrayed, I'm not going to criticize. There's a LOT of room to have villains who are clearly the villains, but not as bad as Nazis, because "bad but not literally Hitler" is a pretty wide band of territory. This is especially true in a Wonder Woman movie, because Wonder Woman is supposed to have at least some aptitude for redeeming her opponents instead of just treating them like giant thugs to smash her way through.

If Wonder Woman fights Nazis and you're not William Marston, you may wonder exactly how/why she would bother trying to convince them to stop being nasty terrible people. They're Nazis, and Nazis are just for guilt-free killing on screen, right?

If Wonder Woman fights German mooks with spiky helmets and the Red Baron and guys like that, it becomes more understandable if she's trying to do something other than just physically crush them.

[Joun_Lord]

...My honest impression is that Suicide Squad and Batman vs. Superman did okay and did not 'sink' or even imperil the DC movie line. If Wonder Woman merely does as well as those movies, would it be a bad thing for DC?

They did not sink the DC line but they did not do as well as expected at the box office and was received alot of critical flak from critics and audiences. They made money but not the insane amounts Marvel movies are pulling. BvS barely did better then the far lower budgeted R rated Deadpool. Not exactly knocking it out of the park for movies that are supposed to be launching a cinematic universe.

Until I personally see just how the Germans of the movie are portrayed, I'm not going to criticize. There's a LOT of room to have villains who are clearly the villains, but not as bad as Nazis, because "bad but not literally Hitler" is a pretty wide band of territory. This is especially true in a Wonder Woman movie, because Wonder Woman is supposed to have at least some aptitude for redeeming her opponents instead of just treating them like giant thugs to smash her way through.

If Wonder Woman fights Nazis and you're not William Marston, you may wonder exactly how/why she would bother trying to convince them to stop being nasty terrible people. They're Nazis, and Nazis are just for guilt-free killing on screen, right?

If Wonder Woman fights German mooks with spiky helmets and the Red Baron and guys like that, it becomes more understandable if she's trying to do something other than just physically crush them.

Mind you thats a good attitude to have though there is certainly is possible reason for some to be worried even before the release.

WW left rape and murder island in the comics because of the evil of the Nazis, because of how it imperiled the whole world. WWI was bad, so incredibly terrible but not quite the world ending pot of evil that WWII was. The evils that the Nazis, the Japanese, and even the Allies perpetrated can't compare in any way shape in form to anything done in WWI. A German soldier in the meat grinder of the trenches can be considered a heroic, a guy doing his job while a Nazi soldier marching "undesirables" into camps and slaughtering Russian civilians like cattle cannot unless you maybe voted for Donnie Trump.

If she is trying to stop the war, trying to not just "Wonder Woman smash" the baddies but actually trying to save lives and the like, maybe nothing to worry about. Nothing really in the trailer seems to indicate that though.

Now mind you I understand the change of setting, even in WWI there is going to be alot of comparisons to Captain America's movie. But I can also see why it might be upsetting to some to have changed it to WWI rather then its sequel.

Personally I don't think we see enough of WWI in movies so I'm kinda excited to see how they bring it to life.

[Q99]

...My honest impression is that Suicide Squad and Batman vs. Superman did okay and did not 'sink' or even imperil the DC movie line. If Wonder Woman merely does as well as those movies, would it be a bad thing for DC?

Money-wise, no, but the reviews and audience reaction gives pretty solid basis to say that there's real danger of the line being dragged down.

BvS did not meet expectations. Sure, it made money, but it was planned to make a lot more, hence why it had such an immense budget. Marvel can make hit after hit going above that level, often for less money, because they've built audience good will. Fox is outperforming them now too.

If DC wants a long-term cinematic universe and not 'a couple films as part of an overly ambitious plan that failed before they ditched the connected aspect,' they need movies people like, and preferably soon. Wonder Woman may be just that.

The problem is I'm not going to trust pre-screening reviews especially from professional critics. Been burned way too much on that. Stuff like Suicide Squad and Batman v Superman where critics said it was the best thing evar, finally righting the DC movie franchise, 10 out of 10 and then its released an audiences (myself included) find them......well less then ideal to be charitable.

Both of those ended up with very bad RT ratings. It's just that the hype machines tried to amplify the 'pro' voices, but by this point we did have a ton of negative reviews.

This? Well, this looks like a different story.

WW left rape and murder island in the comics because of the evil of the Nazis, because of how it imperiled the whole world. WWI was bad, so incredibly terrible but not quite the world ending pot of evil that WWII was.

I'll comment the 'rape and murder island' and the WW2 origin have never co-existed- and fortunately the former has been retconned away again. The ones that have used WW2 have had her island be a paradise (pre-crisis), or at least a reasonably-good-place-with-flaws (post).

Plus it was Steve Trevor landing and explaining it that helped convince Diana that it'd be time to act. Otherwise they might've sat through and never realized the magnitude of the war.


Most of what I've seen says this gets the 'non-evil island, Diana's in it to do the right thing' part right. And apparently it blames the war on Ares, and... well, blaming WW2 on an outside source would be pretty offenses, blaming WW1, flipside, is less-so due to it not really being driven by a specific human reason but more a complex, deeply stupid set of circumstances.

[Joun_Lord]

Both of those ended up with very bad RT ratings. It's just that the hype machines tried to amplify the 'pro' voices, but by this point we did have a ton of negative reviews.

This? Well, this looks like a different story.

I could be mistaken but I don't recall too many negative reviews for either movie before release, certainly nowhere near the flood afterwards when critics seemed to decide to jump on the audience disapproval bandwagon.

I'll comment the 'rape and murder island' and the WW2 origin have never co-existed- and fortunately the former has been retconned away again. The ones that have used WW2 have had her island be a paradise (pre-crisis), or at least a reasonably-good-place-with-flaws (post).

Plus it was Steve Trevor landing and explaining it that helped convince Diana that it'd be time to act. Otherwise they might've sat through and never realized the magnitude of the war.


Most of what I've seen says this gets the 'non-evil island, Diana's in it to do the right thing' part right. And apparently it blames the war on Ares, and... well, blaming WW2 on an outside source would be pretty offenses, blaming WW1, flipside, is less-so due to it not really being driven by a specific human reason but more a complex, deeply stupid set of circumstances.

I'm aware they never co-existed but turning Themyscira into an island of psychos who enslaves people to rape then murder then sale their boy children into slavery kinda over wrote the magical fantasy paradise in my mind just for how goddamn fucked up it was. But that was just a little joke and not really me implying the island in the movie is going to be the same as the island as interpreted by Brian Azzarello.

Diana leaving because of Trevor telling her about the trenches of Europe and the millions being needlessly slaughtered in mechanized war might seem a might less appealing then her taking up the call to stop true evil. No one to fight except a bunch of scared German and Austrian kids unless you make up some wannabe Nazis. There is no Hitler to sock in the jaw except artist Hitler.

Blaming the war of Ares really takes away from the magnitude of tragedy of WWI, of all those mistakes and acts of insanity that turned most of Europe into a hellscape unlike anything the world had seen, where there were no heroes or villains but just countless bodies. Instead people can just say "a god made up do it". Trying to blame either war on outside sources sounds like it might be pretty offensive to some.

[streetad]

I was expecting that that would be the whole point. WW seeing all the horrors of the Great War and assuming that Ares must be behind it, but it turns out it's just humans doing it to themselves.

WW1 being the go-to setting for futile, pointless slaughter and misery, whilst WW2 at least having more clear-cut 'heroes' and 'villians'.

[Majin Gojira]

Looking a bit deeper into the reviews, they all agree on one thing:

The first two-thirds are great. The Climax is "Meh".

Which is an odd thing for this sort of movie, but does make sense. In the best of her comic origins, she doesn't beat up the villain. She converts them. She reasons with Ares in the Perez origin, she lets Phobos and Deimos know that they are loved, etc.

Diana doesn't 'end' her foes by killing them. She 'ends' her foes by solving their core conflict.

[ray245]

Both of those ended up with very bad RT ratings. It's just that the hype machines tried to amplify the 'pro' voices, but by this point we did have a ton of negative reviews.

This? Well, this looks like a different story.

I could be mistaken but I don't recall too many negative reviews for either movie before release, certainly nowhere near the flood afterwards when critics seemed to decide to jump on the audience disapproval bandwagon.

I'll comment the 'rape and murder island' and the WW2 origin have never co-existed- and fortunately the former has been retconned away again. The ones that have used WW2 have had her island be a paradise (pre-crisis), or at least a reasonably-good-place-with-flaws (post).

Plus it was Steve Trevor landing and explaining it that helped convince Diana that it'd be time to act. Otherwise they might've sat through and never realized the magnitude of the war.


Most of what I've seen says this gets the 'non-evil island, Diana's in it to do the right thing' part right. And apparently it blames the war on Ares, and... well, blaming WW2 on an outside source would be pretty offenses, blaming WW1, flipside, is less-so due to it not really being driven by a specific human reason but more a complex, deeply stupid set of circumstances.

I'm aware they never co-existed but turning Themyscira into an island of psychos who enslaves people to rape then murder then sale their boy children into slavery kinda over wrote the magical fantasy paradise in my mind just for how goddamn fucked up it was. But that was just a little joke and not really me implying the island in the movie is going to be the same as the island as interpreted by Brian Azzarello.

Diana leaving because of Trevor telling her about the trenches of Europe and the millions being needlessly slaughtered in mechanized war might seem a might less appealing then her taking up the call to stop true evil. No one to fight except a bunch of scared German and Austrian kids unless you make up some wannabe Nazis. There is no Hitler to sock in the jaw except artist Hitler.

Blaming the war of Ares really takes away from the magnitude of tragedy of WWI, of all those mistakes and acts of insanity that turned most of Europe into a hellscape unlike anything the world had seen, where there were no heroes or villains but just countless bodies. Instead people can just say "a god made up do it". Trying to blame either war on outside sources sounds like it might be pretty offensive to some.

Just came back from the movie.

Regarding your point about Ares and WW1...Minor spoilers
Spoiler

The movie do blame WW1 on humanity as a whole as opposed to blaming it entirely on Ares. I can go into further detail, but it will seriously spoil the movie.

[Ralin]

Miraculous Woman Hero is a very good movie.

No one to fight except a bunch of scared German and Austrian kids unless you make up some wannabe Nazis.

That was one of the things that bothered me. Wonder Woman killing people doesn't bother me much. Man of Steel and Batman vs Superman ripped the lid off that jar, and there was a war on and all. But a lot of this was Wonder Woman mowing down regular soldiers who didn't have a chance in hell of fighting her off, and who moreover weren't substantially worse than ones she'd sided with.

Diana leaving because of Trevor telling her about the trenches of Europe and the millions being needlessly slaughtered in mechanized war might seem a might less appealing then her taking up the call to stop true evil.

A giant mechanized war that kills millions for reasons that ultimately weren't any better than "We had alliances and if we didn't deploy our contingency plans wouldn't work" is pretty damned evil in its own right.

Blaming the war of Ares really takes away from the magnitude of tragedy of WWI, of all those mistakes and acts of insanity that turned most of Europe into a hellscape unlike anything the world had seen, where there were no heroes or villains but just countless bodies. Instead people can just say "a god made up do it". Trying to blame either war on outside sources sounds like it might be pretty offensive to some.

In short, you're dead wrong. Like ray said going into more details would be a spoiler, but none of that is an issue here.

[K. A. Pital]

World War I was senseless capitalistic slaughter by major developed powers for reasons which could be aptly summed up as greed and lust for power of the ruling class.

By blaming it on "humans in general" the true architects of the war - the kings, the prime ministers, the robber barons - are vindicated, spared and protected from blame.

Also, for a film about a character who solves problems with diplomacy it sure involves lots of slaughter. Remember, Germans = bad. Regardless of whether WWI or WWII.

[ray245]

World War I was senseless capitalistic slaughter by major developed powers for reasons which could be aptly summed up as greed and lust for power of the ruling class.

By blaming it on "humans in general" the true architects of the war - the kings, the prime ministers, the robber barons - are vindicated, spared and protected from blame.

Also, for a film about a character who solves problems with diplomacy it sure involves lots of slaughter. Remember, Germans = bad. Regardless of whether WWI or WWII.

Well I would say it's a little more nuance than that. Wonder Woman's initial happy go lucky attitude about going to the front lines and fighting a "good" war paralleled the initial attitudes towards WW1. Wonder Woman in this movie is NOT the ambassador of peace...yet. She's the naive, happy go lucky kid that was eager to sign up in the war to bring "peace". The entire movie was about her simplistic understanding of war being deconstructed right in front of her,

Also, we do see some German soldiers being eager for peace. Spoiler

We also saw Ludendorff kill off nearly all members of German high command who are interested in ending the war.

[PREDATOR490]

7/10

I was entertained and the story mostly worked for me.

The only aspect that really irks me off is the WW1 Trench scene. From the moment they started mentioning 'No-Man's Land' it was obnoxiously obvious how the super woman character was going to react to that.
Spoiler

It seemed like a massive contradiction and borderline offensive for the film to be playing on the tones of war brutality then change the WW1 trenches into a questionable action scene to show off Wonder Woman.

[FedRebel]

Spoiler

Why did they kill off Ares? Seemed like a waste, what with World War 2 to come, etc.

He should've been defeated, but been able to slink away and become the 'Divine Providence' for a German Messenger.

The bomber at the end with 'Steve' sacraficing himself to save the world...seemed familiar...can't quite put my finger on it....

Come to think, the No Man's Land battle had a dash of deja vu...something about how Wonder Woman used her shield...

[Q99]

Well I would say it's a little more nuance than that. Wonder Woman's initial happy go lucky attitude about going to the front lines and fighting a "good" war paralleled the initial attitudes towards WW1. Wonder Woman in this movie is NOT the ambassador of peace...yet. She's the naive, happy go lucky kid that was eager to sign up in the war to bring "peace". The entire movie was about her simplistic understanding of war being deconstructed right in front of her,

Also, we do see some German soldiers being eager for peace. Spoiler

We also saw Ludendorff kill off nearly all members of German high command who are interested in ending the war.

Yea, it's not at all 'all humans are the same,' some are pushing for war, others for peace, Spoiler

and Ares is merely facilitating that with weapons.

We also had Chief's line about Steve's people having taken everything from his people. It's definitely not as simplistic as 'Germans bad.'

Wonder Woman, initially, thinks it's as simple as 'Germans are controlled by Ares, so it's fine to fight.'

Like, did the trench charge really accomplish anything beyond getting them across NML? Not really. If they had snuck across they- heck, most everyone- probably would be better off. Steve was right that they shouldn't stop to 'help'.

[Pelranius]

Out of curiosity, I wondered what happened to Ludendorff's mustache?

I thought his late life beliefs in the esoteric would be mentioned, but don't recall seeing any of that.

[Lord Insanity]

My wife and I saw the movie. We both loved it. It is easily the best of the DC movie-verse. It's the first one that is as good as most of the Marvel movies. It really hit that good mix of comedy, drama, and action rather than being all super serious grim-dark.

One of the theater employee's kindly informed the audience that there was no after credit scene so we didn't have to sit there. Most of us stayed parked at first.

I really liked that her goal for the war was: Spoiler

To kill Ares and free the world of man from his influence. While she mowed through Germans when she had to, she wasn't trying to stop them but rather the god of war that was corrupting them.

[LadyTevar]

8/10 Great visuals, cohesive plot, great mix of comedy, pathos, action, and love story. I admit to crying, both over the town, and over Steven.

What I liked was that other than Lundendorff and Madam Poison, the Germans were shown simply as soldiers. The few High Command we see were talking about a lack of food, of munitions, and genuinely believing the Armistice was the only solution. This British General, was portrayed far more bluntly: "They're soldiers, it's their job to die." I somehow doubt Diana's rant changed that man's mind any.

But, during the fights, something stood out to me -- Diana did not use the sword on the soldiers. She cut rifles in half, but she did not stab or slice men. If she wasn't a super-strong Amazon, all she was doing was taking the soldiers out of the fight, to subdue them. I truly don't think she wanted to kill them, from the look on her face when a ricochet from her bracelet gutted a soldier. It was a honest look of regret. She hadn't meant to kill him, it was an accident. At least, that's how it read to me.

I will admit that I figured Lundendorff was not going to be Ares. I seriously thought Madame Poison was more than just a puppet. Ares' true form blindsided me, just like they wanted it too, and he was the last person I thought it would be. But, again with the good writing, his whole "It's not me, it's THEM" speech had a lot of truth in it. He might be whispering suggestions, but he was whispering into very willing ears. He might be nudging, but it was we humans who were taking the ideas and running out to kill people with them. However, as the sun was rising in the aftermath, you'll note all of the German soldiers looked like they'd woken from a very bad dream. They'd lost the urge to fight, one even hugging Chief. Killing Ares did stop the aggression.

ABOUT THAT CHARGE SHE MADE:
She started the charge across No Man's Land because the woman said the townspeople were being killed and enslaved, and she decided that no, she was NOT going to stand by for this any longer. You ask what she accomplished by drawing all the fire? She liberated a TOWN. She moved that section of The Front forward, something that hadn't been done in weeks. She made a difference, one that would have lasted to the Armistice had Lundendorff not arranged his little demonstration. It was more than just "get them across the map". It was the moment she decided to take a stand, and if you look back on it, the moment she became a Symbol, an inspiration to those who had lost hope. At that moment, she became a true Amazon (as per the story her mother told her).

[Simon_Jester]

Anything besides mass bloodshed, anything, that could move no man's land in 1918 any meaningful distance is, one way or another, a legend. At a minimum, it's earned for defying the fundamental "anti-legend," the "no glory here, no humanity here" image that no man's land embodied.

[biostem]

Spoiler

So am I correct in my understanding that, as of the end of the movie, the entire Greek pantheon is dead?

[Q99]

Spoiler

So am I correct in my understanding that, as of the end of the movie, the entire Greek pantheon is dead?

Spoiler

You are correct, as far as we know there's no other gods left besides Diana.

Also, for a possible inspiration for Ares' look: Spoiler

Diego Velazquez' "Resting Mars"

[Ralin]

Anything besides mass bloodshed, anything, that could move no man's land in 1918 any meaningful distance is, one way or another, a legend. At a minimum, it's earned for defying the fundamental "anti-legend," the "no glory here, no humanity here" image that no man's land embodied.

Part of why it worked was that it was that Wonder Woman didn't end up being powerful enough to storm through No Man's Land on her own. She needed regular people to follow her and support her, and inspired the soldiers in the trenches to defy orders and charge out after her. That's what makes it more than 'just' an action scene in my book.

[Q99]

Part of why it worked was that it was that Wonder Woman didn't end up being powerful enough to storm through No Man's Land on her own. She needed regular people to follow her and support her, and inspired the soldiers in the trenches to defy orders and charge out after her. That's what makes it more than 'just' an action scene in my book.

Also, one thing that helped make it work- she didn't make a speech about charging and then got them all to follow. No, that'd be ridiculous, the value of heroic speeches leading to charges was pretty low by that point. Doesn't matter if you're Wonder Woman, they're not going over the top for you. Rather, at first they though, "oh, she's gonna die. Tragic." Precisely no-one was going to follow her because... well, it's No Man's Land.

Then they were, "OMG, she's actually drawing their fire and staying up! She's slowing down now but everything's focused on just her, we've got a shot!"

Action prompted them to action, and it was them who actually took out the German gunners while WW just tanked with her bracers and shield.